Not By Works

[PeterJens]

I have a confession, the more these people come back, the more it drives me on to
see more clearly the revelation God has brought us in Christ.

In any church there are subjects you dare not touch because certain people will bring
the house down on top of you.

This is true of 3 individuals here.
But they also demonstrate they have no answer, but repeating the same empty positions.

But these positions do have historical precedence, and are very important.
One cannot under estimate the impact on the theological thinking in the evangelical world.

Just add up the billions of $ that flow in prosperity gospel circles, the funding round the
world of missionary efforts, the pastors who must maintain their standing by teaching
consistently to their denomination and congregations who are very critical and vocal
about deviations.

But equally never before in history has such an open opportunity to put forward ideas
observations and gain encouragement as we explore these realities. Often in our walks,
we are alone, or in small communities, but here things can be put through the furnace
of the best minds able to put up opposition. So many things we can slip or drift into
error without this help, so praise God, He uses everything to help us grow up in Him.

And you would be amazed at how rarely such discussions take place.
So be encouraged, God is moving, and His kingdom knows no end, Amen.

 

[mj007]

Maybe everyone is right to some degree, but maybe our perspectives are wrong.

Imagine learning to ride a bicycle, once you have ridden a bicycle and know how to ride one, you can never unknow how to ride a bicycle. 'Certified Cyclist'

Maybe being saved is the same in the sense of, gaining knowledge you cannot unknow. So one could have the badge of 'Certified as Saved', however the only time you are really riding the bicycle is when you are riding the bicycle, but when you do not it does not mean you don't know how. It doesn't mean you are no longer a 'Certified Cyclist'.

But to enact an opinion of yourself as saved, surely takes works to not contradict oneself or appear hypocritical (as many do in religion), rather than hey I'm saved I'm going to steal a bike because I need to make some money, and it doesn't matter because I'm saved. That is an exaggeration of a point, which could be any point.

Just a random trajectory of thought.

 

[loveme1]

can the cross be preached apart from the One who suffered and died on it? or can it save those who reject His words? the "preaching of the cross" was pauls message that through the cross, all people, not only Jews were reconciled to God. the cross is what added the gentiles to the people of God. Notice who is responsble for Jesus death, Jewish priests accused and condemned Him, and Gentile romans crucified Him.

Both Jew and Gentile are guilty of Jesus Death, Pauls message was that of the apostle to Gentiles, Gentiles already Knew they werent included in Judaism the Idea that the God of israel, Had now extended His salvation to the Gentiles who the law excluded from belonging to God, were reconciled to God through the cross able to worship God. Pauls message was that the cross included all people and not only the Jews.

this is what the message of the cross really means


ephesians 2 :Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; ( jew and gentile)

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.


pauls message of the cross is that by the cross Gentile and Jew are the same to God. he says the same thing a few times regarding this. we have to remember that the gentiles being included was a brand new thing and the cause of pauls many persecutions from the Jews, they hated that the gentiles were now included because up until then, they were the chosen and seperate peculiar people set apart to God.

Now though Pauls message of the cross was that the gentile Had been reconciled with the Jew, and both were now reconciled to God through the cross. Pauls message to the gentiles was unheard of in Jewish belief, offensive really, because paul was also saying " you are dead to the Law through the Body of Christ" and things Like that to the Jews , the Mosaic Law was everything and what made them special was being Gods chosen People. the jews were the main persecuters of christians including paul and the apostles.

when we are reading Paul we have to Keep in Mind, He was saying things that were newly revealed about the gentile inclusion. im not at all saying the cross is of no value, Im saying if you remove Jesus Christ, His Word and Blood.....the cross has no value. the Only thing that Makes the cross relevant is the One who suffered and died on it. its no more than a symbol. when He says things Like " I glory in the cross" or the " Message of the cross is..." he isnt saying to preach a cross, He is talking about the message of what Jesus did on the cross, and what He did 3 days later leaving the empty tomb behind.

My point is that the cross is nothing, without Jesus Christ, His Blood and the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

Indeed Other men were crucified at the same time.. like you say it is the Special Who and Why.. which is all of GOD who is making a New Covenant with His creation... Jew or Gentile... Repent and Believe to be redeemed and Reconciled becoming a Child of GOD.

GOD is Amazing and Almighty...that what the unbelievers perceive as loss like well why not come down and save yourself.. Kings don't come to die for their servants.. servants die for their King..... GOD is Victorious in this act of saying look what I have done for you because I love you and want to save you... now the Kings people will serve Him Truly with love and devotion for He saved them...

 

[VCO]

We are saved by Jesus spilled blood on the Cross. The Cross is of great value for eternity and a day, not just when you think it is appropriate. The Cross is of great value for the world to see not just, "when someone accepts God's Word. You last sentence is nonsense; "it is not if we try to just take the cross out of the rest."

Many have No respect for the FLAG that our TROOPS DIED FOR.

Many have No respect for the CROSS of Jesus Christ.

Many have No respect for Religious Freedom.

Many have No respect for Freedom of Speech.

What's Next? Behead the Believers.

This World is certainly on the Road to Destruction.

 

[VCO]

If Christ is your righteousness, then it means you are still lost in your sin, . . .

That statement is pure HERESY.


Philippians 3:8-9 (CSBBible)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] More than that, I also consider everything to be a loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Because of him I have suffered the loss of all things and consider them as dung, so that I may gain Christ
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own from the law, but one that is through faith in Christ??—??the righteousness from God based on faith.

Isaiah 64:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.


It sure did not take long for your true colors to come out.

 

[PeterJens]

That statement is pure HERESY.


Philippians 3:8-9 (CSBBible)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] More than that, I also consider everything to be a loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Because of him I have suffered the loss of all things and consider them as dung, so that I may gain Christ
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own from the law, but one that is through faith in Christ??—??the righteousness from God based on faith.

Isaiah 64:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.


It sure did not take long for your true colors to come out.

Hi vco.

What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.
phil 3:8-9

Let me take it simply. Paul is saying he is not righteous because he obeys the law, but
because he has faith in Christ, it is a gift, to be considered righteous, acceptable to God
because he knows and believes in Christ.

Now in your mind this is Christs righteousness given to him, imputed.
Abraham had faith, and it was counted as righteousness.

So I am saying that when you are washed clean, made perfect and holy, you are righteous.
Not a righteousness that is someone elses, but yours.

Now our righteousness gained by good works or obedience to the law will always fail or
be filthy rags.

Now the difference between us is you do not hold we are perfect, Holy, washed clean,
it is just a veil of Christs righteousness covering us.

But scripture shows it is real. You are purified, made clean, the Holy Spirit removing guilt from
the forgiven sinner.

Why does this matter? Because a theology of defilement by sinful actions is different from
sinners covered but not transformed. Practically in the life of a believer, it may be difficult to
differentiate, but it shows in resolving sins, behaviour that is destructive and evil.

A group who have compromised on sin, have compromised salvation also.
Now this is a big issue, one people have struggled with for thousands of years.

So I fully understand this, no, but the scripture is clear. We are cleansed pure and holy.
Hebrews adds perfect, which even I struggle with.

So you feel this is heresy, you need to explain how we can be called holy and perfect,
if you say this does not actually take place. The simple side step is to say God sees us
as holy and perfect because He sees Christ and not us. But that would mean sin is irrelevant
and rebukes for sin from God do not happen, when they obviously do.

So no matter how awkward scripture is, this is what it declares to us.
God bless you.

 

[PeterJens]

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:16

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Rom 6:18

Look at the verses above. If we are not free from sin, we are slaves still to sin, which leads
to death.

If we are free from sin, righteous, we are slaves to righteousness or the love of God which
dwells in our hearts.

Now you guys can twist it anyway you like, and you will to excuse failure and struggles, but
the scriptures are clear. It is not legalism but a promise of freedom and victory.

So what are you slaves to? And if you are still caught in sin, how can you resolve it?
Christs calls us to a life of love and purity, is this too hard to grasp, after years and years
reading scripture and going to church? What have you been listening to and reading?

 

[loveme1]

Each day is a different part of the walk following the Good Shepherd on the path of Righteousness.. each day we need to walk as He walked looking at Good Shepherd for help and guidance all from within by the Holy Spirit given by the Grace and Love of GOD to those that believe.. yet that belief is a change of heart by the Power of GOD through Faith in Christ.

Truly when you read the Messiah's Testimony you are to be a hear and doer.. if not you love Him not.. now not to accuse like the adversary and say we all sin.. no one is perfect or you are working for your salvation.. for that is not Faith but inviting temptation.. when we read be perfect we should set our heart.. for that does not mean we deem ourselves perfect but love the Lord because we say yes My Lord.. not no I can not.. that is not Faith that worketh by love.. that is believing in Him.

 

[PeterJens]

It sure did not take long for your true colors to come out.

Does a clear stream flow with filth and garbage? Has God redeemed a people who
a lost and empty? Is their no integrity and victory over sin, while claiming the seemingly
impossible, victory over death?

As a people we are often just making do, working things out, as best we can.
But in these earthen vessels God has placed His treasure.

We are holy vessels filled with the Holy Spirit.
Are you telling me, you are filled with the Holy Spirit while still be defiled and
claiming I am not from God? Sounds a bit of a lost cause, especially as Paul
says we are Holy in Christ.

whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
1 Cor 6:17

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself
1 cor 6:15

you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
1 cor 6:11

Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
Heb 2:11

Do I have a problem if you guys what to say you are defiled and Christ has not made you
holy? Yes, because you do not know the Kingdom into which you partake and are missing
the blessing and reality He offers you in Him.

Does this denial block spiritual blessing and progress in God? Probably.
It is unbelief in the words of scripture, no matter how difficult to grasp it is actually there.

And the depth of this unbelief is shown by just talking about it, heresy.
So quick and insecure are people in their trust of God and His word, this is the response.

I am not surprised the word seems so hard for many, because they already lock out
the best parts, the parts of anointing, honour and blessing. So I wish to bless you and
call you as Christ calls you, brothers and sisters in Him, His Holy redeemed people brought
out of the world into the Kingdom of light. How can I say this, because Paul, Jesus and
the apostles say this. Have you the faith to read, and listen to God and know the Spirit
confirming to your heart what you know is true?

 

[PeterJens]

Each day is a different part of the walk following the Good Shepherd on the path of Righteousness.. each day we need to walk as He walked looking at Good Shepherd for help and guidance all from within by the Holy Spirit given by the Grace and Love of GOD to those that believe.. yet that belief is a change of heart by the Power of GOD through Faith in Christ.

Truly when you read the Messiah's Testimony you are to be a hear and doer.. if not you love Him not.. now not to accuse like the adversary and say we all sin.. no one is perfect or you are working for your salvation.. for that is not Faith but inviting temptation.. when we read be perfect we should set our heart.. for that does not mean we deem ourselves perfect but love the Lord because we say yes My Lord.. not no I can not.. that is not Faith that worketh by love.. that is believing in Him.

You make a good point, which leads me on to another. Until you achieve a great thing you
only know by faith it is possible. To disbelieve it, you will never achieve it because one will
never try. When I was young, living in a family that knew love but not how to express it, I
was very lonely and depressed. Now I have a family in which Jesus's love is expressed and
appreciation flows. I used to hope this was possible, and in Christ He lead me to this point.

Now I know it is possible because I am now here, not boasting, but this is life instead of
suffering. Jesus brings hope of the impossible because He can make it happen. We have to
have the faith and walk it, and He will do the rest.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Every person who is presently believing has eternal life. The gift is conditioned on believing (not work). You lose the life that is eternal if/when you stop believing:

"He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:22-23 NASB)

What is it about the 'if' in the above scripture that you do not understand?


And if you think the person who does not "continue in the faith" is still saved but just won't be presented holy before Him consider this:

"14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14 NASB)

wrong

everyone who believes has eternal life

it means they will never die, if they can die, they do not have eternal life. They would have conditional life. In your case, conditional life based on the ability to keep on believing .

again, one day you mist see it..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here's the truly ironic part about all this. Dcon is telling me that me for me to think that I have to continue to believe in order to stay saved is me trying to earn my salvation.....the salvation that Dcon and EG both say I can not lose!

It appears that I can fall away from the gospel and be lost, but they can't.

Lololololol.. ok, can I stop laughing yet?

Niether EG or DCON says you can lose salvation, that is you my friend. If your saved, you could never fall away and be lost, and this is what EG and DECON have siaid since they got here.

Again those are your words, not ours.

Now your in sin, because you have tried to slander us both with lies you know are not true. You should be ashamed, then confess your sin,. Better yet, Confess Jesus, for he will never let your down, and give you a reason to fall away.

 

[dcontroversal]

Just set me straight using scripture that my believing is an evil, damnable work of trying to keep myself saved and I will concede the debate. That's how easy you could shut me down. Do it, then I will concede defeat and go home and never bother anyone with 'my' gospel ever again. And you will have won. Can you do it?

The fact that you teach you can lose it or forfeit by what you do or no not do proves it, the fact you use Hebrews out of context, deny verb tense, reject the promises of Jesus, the fact you deny the power of God to KEEP one saved, the fact you deny Jesus starts, finishes and completes our faith which you reject by saying YOU MUST KEEP YOURSELF IN THE FAITH clearly undermines Jesus, enthrones yourself and is a false working for anti-Christian dogma.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Here's the truly ironic part about all this. Dcon is telling me that me for me to think that I have to continue to believe in order to stay saved is me trying to earn my salvation.....the salvation that Dcon and EG both say I can not lose!

It appears that I can fall away from the gospel and be lost, but they can't.

No one can fall away after salvation and lose it....this is where you miss the mark in your anti-Christian dogma...your view state clearly that Jesus is a liar when it states that he BEGINS, FINISHES AND COMPLETES WHAT HE STARTS concerning saving faith...Just admit it because this is exactly what you teach and espouse.....

 

[dcontroversal]

That statement is pure HERESY.


Philippians 3:8-9 (CSBBible)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] More than that, I also consider everything to be a loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Because of him I have suffered the loss of all things and consider them as dung, so that I may gain Christ
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own from the law, but one that is through faith in Christ??—??the righteousness from God based on faith.

Isaiah 64:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.


It sure did not take long for your true colors to come out.

Totally agree....chunk it up with the other false statements that deny Jesus......

 

[dcontroversal]

wrong

everyone who believes has eternal life

it means they will never die, if they can die, they do not have eternal life. They would have conditional life. In your case, conditional life based on the ability to keep on believing .

again, one day you mist see it..

Doubtful.....highly unlikely based upon his current "I keep myself saved" and Jesus cannot keep his word and finish nor complete the work he began kn us because I have to do that....

 

[dcontroversal]

Lololololol.. ok, can I stop laughing yet?

Niether EG or DCON says you can lose salvation, that is you my friend. If your saved, you could never fall away and be lost, and this is what EG and DECON have siaid since they got here.

Again those are your words, not ours.

Now your in sin, because you have tried to slander us both with lies you know are not true. You should be ashamed, then confess your sin,. Better yet, Confess Jesus, for he will never let your down, and give you a reason to fall away.

Amen.............funny how we consistently state the same thing and they have to twist our words, embellish our words, etc.....makes me wonder how one who believes they have to keep themselves saved can do it by the anti-truth works they actually do....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen.............funny how we consistently state the same thing and they have to twist our words, embellish our words, etc.....makes me wonder how one who believes they have to keep themselves saved can do it by the anti-truth works they actually do....

They just hurt themselves when they do that, everyone sees right through it

 

[PeterJens]

wrong

everyone who believes has eternal life

The logical absurdity is, when you come to faith you saved, if it is the right
faith, in the right way, with the right doctrines.

This is the first exam born again experience. When I came to faith I had
no thoughts about security or not, losing or not.

In this world of theirs you will never know, in case you turn apostate.
Either everyone who believes is saved or no one. There is no real distinction
and certainly fruits are irrelevant. What a mess!!!!!

 

[mj007]

Anger distorts many a mind.

The logical absurdity is, when you come to faith you saved, if it is the right
faith, in the right way, with the right doctrines.

This is the first exam born again experience. When I came to faith I had
no thoughts about security or not, losing or not.

In this world of theirs you will never know, in case you turn apostate.
Either everyone who believes is saved or no one. There is no real distinction
and certainly fruits are irrelevant. What a mess!!!!!