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Here is part of my response to Sister 1ofthem...
When the Christ was in the garden of Gethsamane, He prayed three times to let this cup pass from Him. What was in that cup that caused Him to pray three times to let it pass from Him, if it was His Father's will?
In the hand of the Lord is a cup full of foaming wine mixed with spices; he pours it out, and all the wicked of the earth drink it down to its very dregs.[Psalm 75:8] Our sins, and conversely His wrath, was in that cup. When the Christ drank of that most bitter cup, He knew that His Father would have to distance(turn His back on Him) Himself from His own Son. It was after He ingested this cup, He was then throttled and killed.
As it says God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.[2 Cor. 5:21] Notice, Paul said God made Him 'to be sin', not a symbol of sin, but sin itself. When He ingested our sins, our sins were imputed to Him, and He stood before God as a guilty sinner. When He stood before God, God saw Him as if it were you or I. He treated His Son no differently. That's because we can read He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?[Rom. 8:32] This shows God's justice in that even when His son stood in our place, God spared Him not.
Now, everything the Christ did, He did for His sheep. When He lived the sinless life, He lived it in their stead. When He died, He died in their place. When He rose from the grave, He rose for them so that they could live again, as Romans 4:25 says, He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. Everything the Christ is, His sheep are. God now sees His elect with the imputed righteousness of the Christ. He sees them as if they had lived the perfect life, as if they have never sinned. God sees us through His Son.
That's why I will defend Calvinism to my death. Everything the Christ did, He did for His sheep. If He lived, died and rose for everybody w/o exception, then everybody w/o exception will be saved. You can not hold to a universal atonement and not be a universalist and remain consistent in your theology.
Wow, when do you sleep? When I was going to bed, you were active, when I got up after 9 hours, you are immediatelly answering my questions too
"Sinners have gone astray from the womb: they go astray from the belly: they speak lies." Ps 57:3 (LXX)
Well, do you have some more verses? Because its hard to base anything on one verse from poetry. We can also base flat earth there and other obviously wrong things.
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned."
It does not say that we sinned actively in Adam. It says that Adam was the gate through which death and sinning came into humanity.
I agree that unborn babies would sin later, but I do not see that they already sinned, in this verse.
Wow, when do you sleep? When I was going to bed, you were active, when I got up after 9 hours, you are immediatelly answering my questions too
"Sinners have gone astray from the womb: they go astray from the belly: they speak lies." Ps 57:3 (LXX)
Well, do you have some more verses? Because its hard to base anything on one verse from poetry. We can also base flat earth there and other obviously wrong things.
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—[Romans 5:12]
I now that 'all' needs to be properly understood, and that it rarely means all ppl of all time, but I think the context here demands that thought. We, being Adam's posterity, fell when he fell. Babies have been imputed his guilt, even whilst in the womb.
The way we were imputed Adam's guilt, is the same way the Christ was imputed our sins, and the same exact way we are imputed the Christ's righteousness...through no effort of our own, we were imputed Adam's guilt, through no effort of the Christ, He was imputed our sins, and through no effort of our own, we are imputed His righteousness.
No.
We all have inherited Adams sin.
When Adam and Eve ate the apples we became spiritually "polluted" we no longer were without sin.
God and angels also have this knowledge (of Good and bad sin and holiness) (God is above anything HOLY)
Difference is Angels have ability to fully choose to be (Fully holy or fully evil) They are not slave to sin they are masters of their action.
For us humans we are like a boat in storm we do not really control where we go , sin has so strong effect on us we cannot control it..
Like it is said... Spirit is willful but the flesh...
This is the reason Jesus had to sacrifice himself for us.. to give us change for redemption in him.
Slavery for sin in him is broken. We might still sin at times but we not habitual sinners as we are not a slave to it.
Now to the question of babies etc.
God do not create anything evil.
God only creates purity and holy things.
When a new baby is born it is given spirit (by God) and that spirit is pure
Also baby is given flesh (by parents) and with it comes the pollution of Adam and Eve.
Soon as this baby is born (or maybe already in later stages in womb) this flesh starts to effect the spirit.
As babies and children in my opinion have no ability to create connection to God willfully (as willfully meaning though knowledge and learning and fullness of growth)
This of course do not mean Children and babies do not have connection to God . No quite the opposite.
It just is more of a "natural" kind (as nature of spirit not nature of flesh)
Now if child dies i would think God in his justice do take this into account (of course God decides this and i have no option but accept his will but i would think babies children go to heaven)
I think I understand your reasoning: Christ was made sin for us therefore he became mortal on the cross. On the other hand, it seems to me just a theory (that His body was immortal before) and not so compelling to call other theories a heresy.
Well, He was 100% God and 100% man. But if the Christ had not been imputed our sin, how could He have died? I don't agree with this that Romans 6:23 deals strictly with physical death. By Adam's sin, we are all born spiritually dead and the sentence of death upon of flesh. God told him the day he ate of that tree, he would die. He died spiritually that very instant, and physically at the age of 930. So, his guilt was passed unto us, and we are born spiritually dead and also the sentence of death upon our flesh.
From gotquestions...
Question: "What is original sin?"
Answer: The term “original sin” deals with Adam’s sin of disobedience in eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and its effects upon the rest of the human race. Original sin can be defined as “that sin and its guilt that we all possess in God’s eyes as a direct result of Adam’s sin in the Garden of Eden.” The doctrine of original sin focuses particularly on its effects on our nature and our standing before God, even before we are old enough to commit conscious sin. There are three main views that deal with that effect.
Pelagianism: This view says that Adam’s sin had no effect upon the souls of his descendants other than his sinful example influencing those who followed after him to also sin. According to this view, man has the ability to stop sinning if he simply chooses to. This teaching runs contrary to a number of passages that indicate man is hopelessly enslaved by his sins (apart from God’s intervention) and that his good works are “dead” or worthless in meriting God’s favor (Ephesians 2:1-2; Matthew 15:18-19; Romans 7:23; Hebrews 6:1; 9:14).
Arminianism: Arminians believe Adam’s sin has resulted in the rest of mankind inheriting a propensity to sin, commonly referred to as having a “sin nature.” This sin nature causes us to sin in the same way that a cat’s nature causes it to meow—it comes naturally. According to this view, man cannot stop sinning on his own; that is why God gives a universal grace to all to enable us to stop. In Arminianism, this grace is called prevenient grace. According to this view, we are not held accountable for Adam’s sin, just our own. This teaching runs contrary to the fact that all bear the punishment for sin, even though all may not have sinned in a manner similar to Adam (1 Corinthians 15:22; Romans 5:12-18). Nor is the teaching of prevenient grace explicitly found in Scripture.
Calvinism: The Calvinistic doctrine states that Adam’s sin has resulted not only in our having a sin nature, but also in our incurring guilt before God for which we deserve punishment. Being conceived with original sin upon us (Psalm 51:5) results in our inheriting a sin nature so wicked that Jeremiah 17:9 describes the human heart as “deceitful above all things and beyond cure.” Not only was Adam found guilty because he sinned, but his guilt and his punishment (death) belongs to us as well (Romans 5:12, 19). There are two views as to why Adam’s guilt should be seen by God as also belonging to us. The first view states that the human race was within Adam in seed form; thus when Adam sinned, we sinned in him. This is similar to the biblical teaching that Levi (a descendant of Abraham) paid tithes to Melchizedek in Abraham (Genesis 14:20; Hebrews 7:4-9), even though Levi was not born until hundreds of years later. The other main view is that Adam served as our representative and so, when he sinned, we were found guilty as well.
The Calvinistic view sees one as unable to overcome his sin apart from the power of the Holy Spirit, a power possessed only when one turns in reliance upon Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sin upon the cross. The Calvinistic view of original sin is most consistent with biblical teaching. However, how can God hold us accountable for a sin we did not personally commit? There is a plausible interpretation that we become responsible for original sin when we choose to accept, and act according to, our sinful nature. There comes a point in our lives when we become aware of our own sinfulness. At that point we should reject the sinful nature and repent of it. Instead, we all “approve” that sinful nature, in effect saying that it is good. In approving our sinfulness, we are expressing agreement with the actions of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. We are therefore guilty of that sin without actually having committed it.
https://www.gotquestions.org/original-sin.html
Question: "What is original sin?"
Answer: The term “original sin” deals with Adam’s sin of disobedience in eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and its effects upon the rest of the human race. Original sin can be defined as “that sin and its guilt that we all possess in God’s eyes as a direct result of Adam’s sin in the Garden of Eden.” The doctrine of original sin focuses particularly on its effects on our nature and our standing before God, even before we are old enough to commit conscious sin. There are three main views that deal with that effect.
Pelagianism: This view says that Adam’s sin had no effect upon the souls of his descendants other than his sinful example influencing those who followed after him to also sin. According to this view, man has the ability to stop sinning if he simply chooses to. This teaching runs contrary to a number of passages that indicate man is hopelessly enslaved by his sins (apart from God’s intervention) and that his good works are “dead” or worthless in meriting God’s favor (Ephesians 2:1-2; Matthew 15:18-19; Romans 7:23; Hebrews 6:1; 9:14).
Arminianism: Arminians believe Adam’s sin has resulted in the rest of mankind inheriting a propensity to sin, commonly referred to as having a “sin nature.” This sin nature causes us to sin in the same way that a cat’s nature causes it to meow—it comes naturally. According to this view, man cannot stop sinning on his own; that is why God gives a universal grace to all to enable us to stop. In Arminianism, this grace is called prevenient grace. According to this view, we are not held accountable for Adam’s sin, just our own. This teaching runs contrary to the fact that all bear the punishment for sin, even though all may not have sinned in a manner similar to Adam (1 Corinthians 15:22; Romans 5:12-18). Nor is the teaching of prevenient grace explicitly found in Scripture.
Calvinism: The Calvinistic doctrine states that Adam’s sin has resulted not only in our having a sin nature, but also in our incurring guilt before God for which we deserve punishment. Being conceived with original sin upon us (Psalm 51:5) results in our inheriting a sin nature so wicked that Jeremiah 17:9 describes the human heart as “deceitful above all things and beyond cure.” Not only was Adam found guilty because he sinned, but his guilt and his punishment (death) belongs to us as well (Romans 5:12, 19). There are two views as to why Adam’s guilt should be seen by God as also belonging to us. The first view states that the human race was within Adam in seed form; thus when Adam sinned, we sinned in him. This is similar to the biblical teaching that Levi (a descendant of Abraham) paid tithes to Melchizedek in Abraham (Genesis 14:20; Hebrews 7:4-9), even though Levi was not born until hundreds of years later. The other main view is that Adam served as our representative and so, when he sinned, we were found guilty as well.
The Calvinistic view sees one as unable to overcome his sin apart from the power of the Holy Spirit, a power possessed only when one turns in reliance upon Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sin upon the cross. The Calvinistic view of original sin is most consistent with biblical teaching. However, how can God hold us accountable for a sin we did not personally commit? There is a plausible interpretation that we become responsible for original sin when we choose to accept, and act according to, our sinful nature. There comes a point in our lives when we become aware of our own sinfulness. At that point we should reject the sinful nature and repent of it. Instead, we all “approve” that sinful nature, in effect saying that it is good. In approving our sinfulness, we are expressing agreement with the actions of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. We are therefore guilty of that sin without actually having committed it.
https://www.gotquestions.org/original-sin.html
Of course His deity did not die, only His body. And while His body was material like ours, He needed to eat, to drink, to sleep and also He needed oxygen to breath or heart for blood flow. So why should He not physically die?
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." R 6:23
You think that Paul begins with physical death and then ends with spiritual eternal life? Why would he do so?
The wage of sin is spiritual death, but the gift of God is eternal spiritual life in Christ Jesus, our Lord.
Adam died naturaly, physically because he was not allowed to eat from the tree of life (whatever this tree symbolized). If he would be killed, he could die much younger. He was not immortal.
J
joefizz
Guest
well considering the death you are talking about in this verse,is concerning "sinning" resulting in death wise guy,where as dieing in general is possible for anyone whom is man woman or child,or naturally of course other creatures as well,but since you wanna be so immature,let me ask you a serious question and see if you can give an answer,have you seen an infant sin?
can a toddler or child whom has no knowledge of sin,sin?
strange I recall a person in fact a man of God who was God,gasp Jesus,he said to the disciples concerning gasp again,"Children" being brought to "be blessed by Jesus,to "suffer the little children"(as in they were already blessed not needing further blessing but he blessed them anyways)
Matthew 18 verses 1-6At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus,saying,Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
And Jesus called a little child unto him,and set him in the midst of them,
And said,Verily I say unto you,Except ye be converted,and become as little children,ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child,the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me,it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck,and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
So once I ask another question why would Jesus bother telling his disciples or anyone for that matter,not to offend children as in willfully introduce them to sin or willfully have children doubt Jesus,even basically saying that the person who does so will wish to be dead,or even telling how much one can "learn" from the "Belief" children have,if they are simply sinful same as us who have sinned?
answer:children have no comprehension of sin when they are born and unless they are introduced to it,they know not sin so how can they be defiled as we are or sinful as we are,granted they are born into this world of sin never asking or choosing to be born,and until they come across sin,how can they partake of it let alone comprehend it,until their innocence is gone by way of sin?
For their conception was of sin,but what of them,what wrong does a child do lest they be taught to sin or learn it over time on their own?
Jesus saw children as humble believers whom knew not of sin and wished noone to offend them else the person who did so wish to die for their punishment clearly would be great,for children are of true belief for they are innocent until sin be introduced to them or in the fullness of time they learn it?
strange as well how you have said that babies will not Go to hell yet somehow they sinne,somehow they in your mind they just had to have sinned,it's either innocent babies/children(whom are not aware of sin) go to heaven sinless if they die or they go to hell having sinned somehow being aware of sin,you can't have it "both" ways not concerning the innocent and holy.
Sin had entered into the world by one man, Adam. It took the last Adam to undo what the first Adam did. When He was sinless(I mean before He was imputed our sins, yet He never committed one sin), no one could lay a hand on Him to harm Him. After He drank of that most bitter cup, it was then, and only then, they could take hold of Him.
If the Christ would have lived to a ripe old age, would He have died? Here's the thing, we don't need to go by what if's but what actually took place. He ingested our sins, became sin, and died after He became sin.
The wages of sin is death, both physical and spiritual. That's why we are born dead in sin, and die later on. Through no effort of our own, we will die because of what Adam did.
And if they had eaten of the Tree of Life, eternal life would be through it and not the Christ. That was God's plan all along. That life eternal life would not come by eating from a Tree, but by eating from One who hung upon a tree.
"Wise guy"? "Immature"? Srsly? Where did this come from?
Also, can you please rephrase this? It's hard to read and follow your thoughts here.
J
joefizz
Guest
So somehow Jesus's sacrifice was in vain,dieing for Everyone's sins including babies,how do babies have sin again considering Jesus died for that sin,and how can they sin not even being unbelievers?
Fascinating that...
just leaping over "important facts" and scriptures so you look good,brilliant...oh wait it's been done before,let's see how many people did that in the bible...too many to count.
What's with these last two posts of yours? I have been nothing but civil and now you're coming at me like this? What did I do to deserve this, my Brother?
J
joefizz
Guest
Actually that would not be possible,half were my thoughts the other half was the holy spirit,I'm probably going to barely remember a word of what was typed in my post,it always astonishes me when the holy spirit takes over what will be said,I'm barely even coherent and have had no sleep,5 am and going to church at 9 or 10 am,but only getting to sleep until 8 am,if at all,but what I do know is that God knows I always will stand up for children,for I was once one whom endure much far too soon,anyways,good night,I feel less upset now,that's another reason I love God,even when I'm steamed through his holy spirit I become gradually more calm to where I don't even feel upset,Praise be to God.