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Oh, so they're born in Christ, eh? That is what you are suggesting. And, you're still begging the question.
Show me a Scripture that denies all the world is lost which includes the whole of mankind regardless of days breathing, or that this declarative statement upon mankind excludes babies, and/or that babies are in Christ, or neutral, until "something else happens." We are shapen in iniquity, that's a plain fact.
Show me a Scripture that denies all the world is lost which includes the whole of mankind regardless of days breathing, or that this declarative statement upon mankind excludes babies, and/or that babies are in Christ, or neutral, until "something else happens." We are shapen in iniquity, that's a plain fact.
Again, I'm not teaching anything...stating my view on it, but you can choose to view how God judges innocent babies and children however you want. We will all know in the end...won't we? I would suggest though you try to use love and kindness to your fellow man, though....I mean because that's what Jesus said to do wasn't it?
Sure. Justin Martyr, Ignatius, Origen, Torah of Moses, Clement of Alexandria etc. Everyone in the early church believed it until Augustine came along. All jews believe so.
Calvinists tend to take their unsystematic theology from romans and completely eviscerate it from what its saying. The reason for this failure is that while these pundits are professional theologians, they dont bother to check out the OT parallels that Paul is using. I've already accepted that some are impossible to reason with, because even after being proven otherwise, they continue quoting romans 3:10 to prove total depravity, thus making scriptures contradict itself (luke 1:6). Basically they throw the entire narrative of the OT out the window, where righteous and wicked are compared over and over. Even in the NT we done seen this, with Cornelius who was a righteous man.
God even told Cain that:
Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Here is one quote from justin martyr:
[FONT="]"We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for." (Justin [/FONT]First Apology chap. 43)
[FONT="]Clement of Alexandria "Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary." (Clement [/FONT]Miscellanies bk. 1, chap. 17)
Calvinists tend to take their unsystematic theology from romans and completely eviscerate it from what its saying. The reason for this failure is that while these pundits are professional theologians, they dont bother to check out the OT parallels that Paul is using. I've already accepted that some are impossible to reason with, because even after being proven otherwise, they continue quoting romans 3:10 to prove total depravity, thus making scriptures contradict itself (luke 1:6). Basically they throw the entire narrative of the OT out the window, where righteous and wicked are compared over and over. Even in the NT we done seen this, with Cornelius who was a righteous man.
God even told Cain that:
Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Here is one quote from justin martyr:
[FONT="]"We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for." (Justin [/FONT]First Apology chap. 43)
[FONT="]Clement of Alexandria "Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary." (Clement [/FONT]Miscellanies bk. 1, chap. 17)
I can suggest anything if its just about our theories.
I do not see anywhere in Scriptures that somebody goes to hell for eternity just because he is a human.
Everytime its said its because "all sinned". If somebody cannot sin, he is excluded from this "all" group, logically.
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You just want from me to prove it to you, I want from you to prove it to me, and its probably leading to the point when we will say "we cannot prove it to the other one, so let us let it be in the opinion area".
I do not see anywhere in Scriptures that somebody goes to hell for eternity just because he is a human.
Everytime its said its because "all sinned". If somebody cannot sin, he is excluded from this "all" group, logically.
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You just want from me to prove it to you, I want from you to prove it to me, and its probably leading to the point when we will say "we cannot prove it to the other one, so let us let it be in the opinion area".
Deut 30:
15) See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16) In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17) But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18) I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Eze 33:
11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
That's talking about Jesus choosing the twelve.
Neither will you find the words "permanent salvation". But I think you'd agree the concept is there.
15) See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16) In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17) But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18) I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Eze 33:
11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
That's talking about Jesus choosing the twelve.
Neither will you find the words "permanent salvation". But I think you'd agree the concept is there.
Kinda of double standards being strung out there isn't it? Is Calvin supposed to have been like a new age Paul or something?????
Anyhow, who on here is calling themselves an Arminian...I've not seen anyone on here saying they follow him or even know who he was or what he was all about...Just saying...
Anyhow, who on here is calling themselves an Arminian...I've not seen anyone on here saying they follow him or even know who he was or what he was all about...Just saying...
I do agree with much of what you posted here brother. The main part where I still struggle to see you point is where you said we can not believe in universal atonement with out being a universalist. There are just too many scriptures that say Jesus died for the whole world and for all men's sin for me to disregard. I in no means think that all will be saved so I am not a universalist by any stretch. I just can't find any other meaning to those verses such as 1 John 2:2 and the many other verses that state that he died for all. [h=1]1 John 2:2[/h]
In my view, this is the gift of God (grace of God) to anyone who will accept it. He sends out an invitation to all, but we know that not all will accept that invitation. He knows who will and who won't accept him, but I do not believe that he predestined or made that choice for anyone. We become grafted in (elect) when we accept him into our lives. To the gentiles he says he grafted us in...to Israel he says they were cut out because of their unbelief...but if they abide not in their unbelief he is able to graft them back in again.(Romans 11)
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for
the sins of the whole world.”
In my view, this is the gift of God (grace of God) to anyone who will accept it. He sends out an invitation to all, but we know that not all will accept that invitation. He knows who will and who won't accept him, but I do not believe that he predestined or made that choice for anyone. We become grafted in (elect) when we accept him into our lives. To the gentiles he says he grafted us in...to Israel he says they were cut out because of their unbelief...but if they abide not in their unbelief he is able to graft them back in again.(Romans 11)
D
To be honest, I really don't think nonCalvinists are automatically Arminians. Then again, all Calvinists aren't automatically followers of Calvin. I get tired of being told my views are wrong because Calvin killed people. (Particularly, since the closest I've ever come to knowing what Calvin taught has been presented to me in memes on FB.) Sooooo, I dump them under the bus they've chosen and link them back to James Arminius, because, frankly, they don't even know who he is.
Goose and ganders. (If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.) And, if they ever stop pretending that Calvinism is bad because of Calvin, I'll stop pretending what they believe is bad because of Arminius!
Very rarely do people go with what their real problem is, so I will keep pretending right along with them, until they get tired of having to defend Arminius too. They know what they're doing, and I know what I'm doing. When they get over subjective, maybe we can get down to reality!
I doubt that will ever happen, because the real problem is they want some sayso above and beyond God's sayso. They want to reign, but it's not our reign. God is sovereign!
Goose and ganders. (If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.) And, if they ever stop pretending that Calvinism is bad because of Calvin, I'll stop pretending what they believe is bad because of Arminius!
Very rarely do people go with what their real problem is, so I will keep pretending right along with them, until they get tired of having to defend Arminius too. They know what they're doing, and I know what I'm doing. When they get over subjective, maybe we can get down to reality!
I doubt that will ever happen, because the real problem is they want some sayso above and beyond God's sayso. They want to reign, but it's not our reign. God is sovereign!