Not By Works

[Rosemaryx]

We have had a peaceful time today.. refreshing for this thread.

Hi loveme1...You really are a light on the hill for our Lord...I do not yet understand enough to add to the conversation that you are having with others, but one thing I do know is that your love for our Saviour is shining bright ...
I want to tell you this openly because we are told to edify each other, and when the Holy Spirit puts something on my heart to post, then that is what I do...God bless you my dear sister in Christ...xox...

 

[PHart]

Jesus drew the line in the sand on receiving eternal life in John 3:18 and John drew the line in the sand on obedience in 1 John 3:7-10.

Which as you can see is exactly the same line we draw in regard to obedience, lol. But you folks fight tooth and nail about it.

 

[PHart]

What's funny about all this is the church has it's own 'rule' for keeping a day of rest and congregating. Yet they attack anyone who decides to have a rule for keeping a day of rest and congregating according to the old covenant.

I cringe every time I hear someone say 'Sabbath' when referring to Sunday, lol. And then I cringe some more when they quote Hebrews 10:25* knowing they are sure it is wrong to keep a Mosaic Sabbath of rest and congregating while they keep their own. Let's face it folks.......we're idiots. Spiritual idiots, lol.


*25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some...

 

[gb9]

Which as you can see is exactly the same line we draw in regard to obedience, lol. But you folks fight tooth and nail about it.

so, where is the line on obedience? how much sin can separate the believer from salvation? how much obedience guarantees salvation? where are these lines?

ya'll just keep throwing out these ARBITRARY talking points with nothing real behind them. it's just concepts and theory .

 

[VCO]

No, you don't keep them, nothing that I said was false because I used the words of TMH God, that's the difference between you and me I use scriptures you use your carnal mind. If you speak to me, speak with the oricales of TMH.

DO YOU NOW?

James 2:1-10 (CSBBible)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] My brothers and sisters, do not show favoritism as you hold on to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For if someone comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and a poor person dressed in filthy clothes also comes in,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] if you look with favor on the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here in a good place," and yet you say to the poor person, "Stand over there," or "Sit here on the floor by my footstool,"
[SUP]4 [/SUP] haven't you made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]
Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Didn't God choose the poor in this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him?
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Yet you have dishonored the poor. Don't the rich oppress you and drag you into court?
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Don't they blaspheme the good name that was invoked over you?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]
Indeed, if you fulfill the royal law prescribed in the Scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself, you are doing well.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If, however, you show favoritism, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For whoever keeps the entire law, and yet stumbles at one point,
is guilty of breaking it all.


ONE ACT OF FAVORITISM OR THE OPPOSITE TOWARDS ANYONE,
MAKES YOU GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF THE LAW.



1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

ONE ACT OF BREAKING AN ORDINANCE OF MAN, EVEN ACCIDENTLY,
MAKES YOU GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF THE LAW.

ONE FAILURE TO HONOR ANYONE,
MAKES YOU GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF THE LAW.


Matthew 5:28 (CSBBible)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] But I tell you, everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.



ONE LUSTFUL GLANCE, EVEN ACCIDENTLY,
MAKES YOU GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF THE LAW.


Romans 13:1-7 (CSBBible)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Let everyone submit to the governing authorities, since there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are instituted by God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have its approval.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For it is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For it is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath but also because of your conscience.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And for this reason you pay taxes, since the authorities are God's servants, continually attending to these tasks.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Pay your obligations to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor.


SHALL I GO ON?

YOU ARE A SINNER GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF GOD'S LAWS JUST LIKE THE REST OF US.

 

[loveme1]

What's funny about all this is the church has it's own 'rule' for keeping a day of rest and congregating. Yet they attack anyone who decides to have a rule for keeping a day of rest and congregating according to the old covenant.

I cringe every time I hear someone say 'Sabbath' when referring to Sunday, lol. And then I cringe some more when they quote Hebrews 10:25* knowing they are sure it is wrong to keep a Mosaic Sabbath of rest and congregating while they keep their own. Let's face it folks.......we're idiots. Spiritual idiots, lol.


*25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some...

Phart here is something that will take the Mosaic part from the Sabbath:

John 7


19Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? 20The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee? 21Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel. 22Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. 23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


Not everyone can perceive the Messiah distinguishing between the Law of Moses and the Law of GOD.. but it is there..

 

[PHart]

...how much sin can separate the believer from salvation? how much obedience guarantees salvation? where are these lines?

ya'll just keep throwing out these ARBITRARY talking points with nothing real behind them. it's just concepts and theory .

Every sin committed after a person RETURNS TO UNBELIEF separates them from God, because they no longer have the forgiveness of God to cover that sin. They don't believe in Christ's ongoing ministry (Hebrews 7:25) anymore, so how can they avoid the damnation of the sin they commit since they no longer have Christ covering that sin for them? That's why you have to keep believing to be saved. And last time I checked, believing was not on the works side of Paul's 'faith vs. works for justification argument, lol.

OSASer's are always challenging us with some ridiculous argument about 'how much obedience is enough' as if salvation was earned by the merit of works. When the right question to ask is, how do I know I'm believing unto eternal life? The answer of course is what mailmandan said--you have a lifestyle and habit of righteous living in love for God, love for others.

Of course, if you have any Calvinist leanings, you believe that if you do not have this lifestyle, or you fall away from that lifestyle, that means you were never saved to begin with. So, IOW, they can't ever know in this life time if they are truly saved because the potential to fall away and be exposed as one who never really believed to begin with doesn't end until you die. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security, lol.

 

[PHart]

In our doctrine, you are eternally secure, and assured of that security, as long as you are believing, present tense. Simple...and Biblical. How do you know you are presently believing? Your life shows it. Lip service is not what signifies the faith that justifies/saves as so many in the church think it does.

 

[gb9]

In our doctrine, you are eternally secure, and assured of that security, as long as you are believing, present tense. Simple...and Biblical. How do you know you are presently believing? Your life shows it. Lip service is not what signifies the faith that justifies/saves as so many in the church think it does.

o.k. I see what you are saying. but, and I brought this up to you a while back, how can YOU tell the difference in between a true believer struggling with sin, or someone just giving it lip service. because they are going to look very similar.

 

[PHart]

o.k. I see what you are saying. but, and I brought this up to you a while back, how can YOU tell the difference in between a true believer struggling with sin, or someone just giving it lip service. because they are going to look very similar.

Brokenness.

 

[Bogadile]

What's funny about all this is the church has it's own 'rule' for keeping a day of rest and congregating. Yet they attack anyone who decides to have a rule for keeping a day of rest and congregating according to the old covenant.

I cringe every time I hear someone say 'Sabbath' when referring to Sunday, lol. And then I cringe some more when they quote Hebrews 10:25* knowing they are sure it is wrong to keep a Mosaic Sabbath of rest and congregating while they keep their own. Let's face it folks.......we're idiots. Spiritual idiots, lol.


*25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some...

In your intellectual superiority, did you know that the early church assembled together on the first day of the week, a.k.a resurrection day of Jesus a.k.a sunday?
Nobody is going against anyone who keeps the Sabbath, what people are going against is their false doctrine that teaches you are not saved if you do not keep the Sabbath as they did in the OT.

I guess we're not all spiritual idiots after all.

 

[loveme1]

DO YOU NOW?

James 2:1-10 (CSBBible)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] My brothers and sisters, do not show favoritism as you hold on to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For if someone comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and a poor person dressed in filthy clothes also comes in,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] if you look with favor on the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here in a good place," and yet you say to the poor person, "Stand over there," or "Sit here on the floor by my footstool,"
[SUP]4 [/SUP] haven't you made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]
Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Didn't God choose the poor in this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him?
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Yet you have dishonored the poor. Don't the rich oppress you and drag you into court?
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Don't they blaspheme the good name that was invoked over you?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]
Indeed, if you fulfill the royal law prescribed in the Scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself, you are doing well.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If, however, you show favoritism, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For whoever keeps the entire law, and yet stumbles at one point,
is guilty of breaking it all.


ONE ACT OF FAVORITISM OR THE OPPOSITE TOWARDS ANYONE,
MAKES YOU GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF THE LAW.



1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

ONE ACT OF BREAKING AN ORDINANCE OF MAN, EVEN ACCIDENTLY,
MAKES YOU GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF THE LAW.

ONE FAILURE TO HONOR ANYONE,
MAKES YOU GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF THE LAW.


Matthew 5:28 (CSBBible)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] But I tell you, everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.



ONE LUSTFUL GLANCE, EVEN ACCIDENTLY,
MAKES YOU GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF THE LAW.


Romans 13:1-7 (CSBBible)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Let everyone submit to the governing authorities, since there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are instituted by God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have its approval.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For it is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For it is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath but also because of your conscience.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And for this reason you pay taxes, since the authorities are God's servants, continually attending to these tasks.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Pay your obligations to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor.


SHALL I GO ON?

YOU ARE A SINNER GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF GOD'S LAWS JUST LIKE THE REST OF US.

We are given so much insight and instruction.. it is to provoke us to Love and do good to not sin... why are you condemning everyone.. we need to Love and encourage for there is Victory and Hope through our Saviour..

2 Peter 1

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[gb9]

Brokenness.

how about the truth that YOU DO NOT REALLY KNOW, so you should not judge another's salvation, which is not for us to judge anyway.

 

[PHart]

....did you know that the early church assembled together on the first day of the week, a.k.a resurrection day of Jesus a.k.a sunday?

Yep. Quite aware of it. And I think they distinguished between their first day of the week meeting and the Sabbath Day, which will always and forever be what we call Saturday. The Sabbath Day did not change to the first day, lol, as so many Christians think.

Now, do you know why the church thinks it's a sin to keep the law? You can thank the early Catholic Church for that stupidity. They literally made it a law that you can not keep the Mosaic law, because that would be you trying to earn your own salvation, completely oblivious to the fact that you can keep the law of Moses and not be trying to earn your salvation by doing that (I'm telling you, we're idiots! The whole bunch of us). This thinking is alive and well to this day in the church, and it is WRONG thinking. What is wrong about law keeping is if you do it for the purpose of trying to be made righteous by it. That's all! It is quite possible to keep the law without it meaning you are trying to make yourself righteous by it, folks. Wake up.

Nobody is going against anyone who keeps the Sabbath, what people are going against is their false doctrine that teaches you are not saved if you do not keep the Sabbath as they did in the OT.

They're not saying anything much different than what the church thinks. Let me explain.

I was thinking about starting it's own thread about this. What woke me up about this was the hypocrisy of the church. We believe that if we don't 'keep' certain rules it shows that we were never really saved to begin with, or had lost our salvation (depending on your doctrinal flavor of choice--assigned choice, if you're Calvinist, lol).

I noticed that Messianic believers believed the same thing: They weren't saying that keeping Sabbath, for example, was how they earn salvation. They're just being like us. They also have a certain criteria of obedience that signifies whether or not one is really born again--it's just a different set of criterion than ours, that's all. They don't believe they earn salvation by their law keeping, just like us. Their law keeping only signifies their love for God and man, just as our 'law keeping' (our version of 'law') only signifies our love for God and man.

So, in our hypocrisy, we bash the heck out of them for 'having' to keep rules while we 'have' to keep our own rules because we say that's what saved people do. Well, I mean we say that when we're not saying that you don't have to do anything to be saved, lol. But you get the point.

I guess we're not all spiritual idiots after all.

No, seriously......we are, lol.

 

[PHart]

how about the truth that YOU DO NOT REALLY KNOW, so you should not judge another's salvation, which is not for us to judge anyway.

Anybody can fake anything. Except the love of God. But a person won't believe that until they know what the love of God looks like. Nobody can fake God's sacrificial love. That's why it's the distinguishing mark of the true believer. Not former believer, but the present believer.

 

[PHart]

o.k. I see what you are saying. but, and I brought this up to you a while back, how can YOU tell the difference in between a true believer struggling with sin, or someone just giving it lip service. because they are going to look very similar.

The bottom line is humility. When I see humility I know I'm dealing with a true brother/sister. When I see arrogance and a lack of humility I know I have yet to see if they are a true believer. I'm not judging their soul. I'm judging their behavior and guarding myself accordingly.

 

[joefizz]

The bottom line is humility. When I see humility I know I'm dealing with a true brother/sister. When I see arrogance and a lack of humility I know I have yet to see if they are a true believer. I'm not judging their soul. I'm judging their behavior and guarding myself accordingly.

lol,arrogance and lack of humility,well yeah people can be sure of themselves and not always humble or very humble yet still be true believers,it's just that when someone ruffles their feathers so to speak,that they tend to get smart alec like,I myself every once in a while get a little sarcastic or witty,but not surprising after all we are not perfect,each one of us has a trait that shows more often than others though through Jesus we change and aren't so quick to use such traits,for example holding one's tongue instead of spouting off is a trait I find to be of a true believer,but then again anyone can be provoke with hurtful words or ludicrous statements.

 

[He_reigns]

o.k. I see what you are saying. but, and I brought this up to you a while back, how can YOU tell the difference in between a true believer struggling with sin, or someone just giving it lip service. because they are going to look very similar.

Hebrews 5:14

People love to say they cannot know the heart of another, only God does, but that does not line up anywhere in the Bible. A solid and truly called Pastor of God will know the sheep he was sent to shepherd.

The issue is the church today do not want true shepherds they want a milkman and a pat on the head and their ears tickled.

Most today could probably not sit under a truly anointed and sent Shepherd, because he would love you from a distance and not be shy about speaking into your life and letting you know mano e mano what you need to change in your spiritual life.

There is a difference between Godly sorrow and worldly sorrow as 2 Cor 7 see's it and a called, sent and anointed shepherd can spot the difference. The largest difference is seeing, discerning, and celebrating the small victories over sin and spiritual growth the true believers life. While no victory or spiritual growth is found in the one giving lip service.

Many like you seem to think this is judgement, but confuse it with discernment and this is because we do not like teaching or preaching about spiritual growth, we like to take the easy road and suggest there is a passive work happening in us, which is just another lie. You do not grow spiritually by passive work. Certain doctrines love preaching passive work inside of you. It takes all the responsibility for spiritual growth off the saint and places it on Jesus. I cannot find that anywhere in my Bible.

Timothy knew his sheep and Paul gave him very solid instructions for keeping the sheep in 1 and 2 Timothy. Most today are to think skinned and babe in Christ to receive from a true shepherd.

 

[He_reigns]

how about the truth that YOU DO NOT REALLY KNOW, so you should not judge another's salvation, which is not for us to judge anyway.

This is not true at all. I responded to you in a different post. Jesus knew the condition of the woman at the well through the gift of the word of Knowledge and because he was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power and not just because he was the son of God.

I have never figured out why people want to say what you did and do not think it is their place or their pastor or other elders place to speak into the lives of others to correct or ask assurance of their salvation, and certainly not their own!

You seem to think the Holy Spirit does not work this way today through his ministers, but he does. The problem is nobody is taught this anymore and the doctrine of political correctness as infected certain parts of the kingdom.

I am not going to give account to my Lord and Savior as to why I never lovingly asked someone under my spiritual are. Hey, do you really know Jesus, do you need to get saved, when the Holy Spirit shows me they need get saved.

I mean really man, this is the great commission is it not? so how can you say, you do not know when someone needs Jesus, never really has him or cannot discern between a babe struggling and a sinner?

 

[He_reigns]

The bottom line is humility. When I see humility I know I'm dealing with a true brother/sister. When I see arrogance and a lack of humility I know I have yet to see if they are a true believer. I'm not judging their soul. I'm judging their behavior and guarding myself accordingly.

Hebrews 5:14 put into practical application brother!

You can also tell the difference because the one giving lip service will eventually tell you to leave them alone, it's not your place to judge me, I am under grace not the law , man! and most times they leave the church.