Salvation and how to "know" when you receive it.

[theQuestiion]

We conclude a man is justified by faith without works....Paul in Romans....again context alludes your conclusion

James 2:18- But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
19- You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder.

[Churchianity believes God is Three! heh]

20- Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21- Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22- You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23- and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
24- You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

And again~

27- [FONT=&quot]For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is[/FONT][FONT=&quot] dead.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[joefizz]

James 2:18- But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
19- You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder.

[Churchianity believes God is Three! heh]

20- Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21- Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22- You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23- and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
24- You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

And again~

27- For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

True Enough since Abraham had no law exactly to go by,he had to believe in what God promised he would receive and so through both faith and works was he justified as saved to God,but we are not of Abraham's time and circumstance,Jesus provided a new covenant,that was not of works but of faith,this is not as if to say that after receiving salvation that we are welcome to be idle,God forbid,but I believe one shall know they are saved because they shall seek to do right for God and trust through Jesus that they are saved and at times boldly stand firm for this belief,now yes if we have not works while claiming to have faith in Jesus then we are hypocrites for we declare we know Jesus but seek not to do well for him,but the works one does do not save one's soul under the new covenant through Jesus ,for a work without the holy spirit in one is not a faith work,for if one shall declare of their work and not include God/Jesus in the work then they may well be liars before God and not accepted Jesus,this is what James means by "faith without works is dead faith" for the individual can have a faith in themselves instead of God and think it saved but it is dead faith for it is not true faith,for if one relies on oneself then what use is God/Jesus to them?
For that individual would eventually seek only their own strength,power,and judgement,and thus leave no room for the holy spirit to abide in them,it is more of another warning of that if one bears no fruits either good or bad then they have a faith but it is "useless" for if one has faith in something whether it be themselves or otherwise then they would do some work to attest their faith not simply be idle and wish for good things.

 

[DJ2]

If you have to ask....no need in me responding!

If you don't have an answer.....just don't reply.

 

[DJ2]

Works are.works are works regardless of source...

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he saved us...

If works of RIGHTEOUSNESS WILL NOT SAVE....No works will save other than the work of the Father which is to BELIEVE ON THE ONE SENT

Dead is, dead is, dead regardless of the faith without works it is dead.

You see , then it is by our actions that we are right with God, and not by our faith alone...

If faith was ABLE TO SAVE ALONE.... No verse such as the one above should exist, no matter what CONTEXT YOU CAN DREAM UP.

 

[OneFaith]

Yep....and the context is the great tribulation not salvation.....you should listen to Jesus and CONTEXT

You have the context wrong. It doesn’t mean saved from the great tribulation, it means saved from Hell- which means salvation. We know this is the correct context because it says in verse Matt 24:9 that during the great tribulation they would be persecuted and put to death- that is not being saved from tribulation.

 

[joefizz]

Please share "All" posts in an "unhateful" and "mature" way,God bless you!

Just reminding of how I intended this thread to be,for I made this thread in the hopes of a thread that wouldn't become a shouting match,nor used for bait and hook questioning(asking a question just to get people upset and then not respond when they get asked a question just to further entice someone to get even more steamed)nor one sided discussion,so as stated above in my previous first post please be unhateful and mature toward others,as in please don't do what I described just before this,"Not by works" has that stuff if you wanna talk in that manner please go there to post,I know I can't force any of you to do so,but respectfully I ask this of you because I like discussing about salvation as well as reading of people's experience with salvation in as civil a way as possible,so that hopefully all in all we "All" learn something from the posts made here,Thank you for your time,proceed back to posting.

 

[mailmandan]

James 2:18- But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
19- You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder.

[Churchianity believes God is Three! heh]

20- Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21- Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22- You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23- and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
24- You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

And again~

27- For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith.

So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

When reading James 2:14-26, you need to keep in mind that James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not BELIEVE ON the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merit of his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." Again, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will give evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:26 (verse 26, not 27), the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life.

The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. Works salvationists have this backwards. Cart before the horse.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have the context wrong. It doesn’t mean saved from the great tribulation, it means saved from Hell- which means salvation. We know this is the correct context because it says in verse Matt 24:9 that during the great tribulation they would be persecuted and put to death- that is not being saved from tribulation.

The context of matt 24 is the last day. The context of enduring till the end is the great tribulation, which will be far greater than any tribulation mankind has seen before or after.

He who endures til the end (when christ returns to save mankind because if he does not return, no flesh will survive) will be saved.

The context is not hell. Hell is not in context anywhere in mattew 24.

 

[DJ2]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith.

So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

When reading James 2:14-26, you need to keep in mind that James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not BELIEVE ON the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merit of his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." Again, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will give evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:26 (verse 26, not 27), the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life.

The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. Works salvationists have this backwards. Cart before the horse.

You see, then it is by our actions that we are right with God, and not by our faith alone. James 2:24 GNT

You are simply fighting the obvious. James is not so much speaking about the definition of faith but the false belief that it is faith alone that saves.

James 2:14-26 is not attempting to define what faith is but the need to have more then faith alone. His examples of the actions of Abraham and Rahab shows this is not about faith or how it is defined but our need to obey. Regardless of how you define faith, these verses are speaking of acts of obedience. Rahab's "genuine" faith and fully entrusted in God would not have saved her without the simple act of tying the scarlet cord.

If salvation is granted simply on the basis of "genuine" faith and fully entrusted in God then these verses are heresy. No one writes a sentence like James 2:24 and expects the reader to understand the opposite.

Your long drawn out discourses are not needed. The Bible is simpler then you think.

 

[DJ2]

The context of matt 24 is the last day. The context of enduring till the end is the great tribulation, which will be far greater than any tribulation mankind has seen before or after.

He who endures til the end (when christ returns to save mankind because if he does not return, no flesh will survive) will be saved.

The context is not hell. Hell is not in context anywhere in mattew 24.

A simple question. If not hell, what are those who endure to the end being saved from?

 

[mailmandan]

You see, then it is by our actions that we are right with God, and not by our faith alone. James 2:24 GNT

It is by our actions that we SHOW we are right with God and not by an empty profession of faith that remains alone - (barren of works - James 2:14-18).

You are simply fighting the obvious. James is not so much speaking about the definition of faith but the false belief that it is faith alone that saves.

It's you who is fighting the obvious because you teach salvation by works. James is arguing against an empty profession of faith (says-claims to have faith) and not genuine faith. Salvation through faith (rightly understood) alone - Ephesians 2:8,9 is not to be confused with what James means by faith alone (dead faith that remains alone/barren of works).

James 2:14-26 is not attempting to define what faith is but the need to have more then faith alone. His examples of the actions of Abraham and Rahab shows this is not about faith or how it is defined but our need to obey. Regardless of how you define faith, these verses are speaking of acts of obedience. Rahab's "genuine" faith and fully entrusted in God would not have saved her without the simple act of tying the scarlet cord.

When James says "faith alone" he is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. Acts of obedience/works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.

In Hebrews 11:31, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She proved her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all true believers prove theirs.

If salvation is granted simply on the basis of "genuine" faith and fully entrusted in God then these verses are heresy. No one writes a sentence like James 2:24 and expects the reader to understand the opposite.

I already thoroughly explained James 2:24 in post #187, yet that verse is a major stumbling block for works salvationists, such as Roman Catholics, Mormons and even Campbellites.

Your long drawn out discourses are not needed. The Bible is simpler then you think.

They were not that long and drawn out, but I'm sure the truth went right over your head. I explained the truth of James 2:14-26 in a simple way.

 

[Gabriel2020]

Condemnation. Those who are separated from God are in sin and the wages of sin is death.. you either endure till the end of your life here on earth, or when Jesus returns. whichever come first. That is why Scripture say that the race does not go to the swift or strong, but to the one that endures to the end. meaning your death. it does not mention anything about till Jesus returns.

 

[notmyown]

hey, Dan? i know you said evangelism was your gift, but man! you're a really good apologist!

 

[joefizz]

The context of matt 24 is the last day. The context of enduring till the end is the great tribulation, which will be far greater than any tribulation mankind has seen before or after.

He who endures til the end (when christ returns to save mankind because if he does not return, no flesh will survive) will be saved.

The context is not hell. Hell is not in context anywhere in mattew 24.

A simple question. If not hell, what are those who endure to the end being saved from?

It can be viewed as being saved from either one but particularly since Jesus in the scripture spoke on that many would suffer for his name sake,it is talking about enduring to the end,as in which ever end,death or judgement day shall be saved,speaking on salvation,not being kept from tribulation but rather enduring what the people of the world will throw at us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A simple question. If not hell, what are those who endure to the end being saved from?

What did Jesus says? If I do not return, no flesh will survive, But I will return and put and end to tribulation.

He who endures to the end (the time I return) will be saved.

He is talking about being saved physically (not suffering death in tribulation) not spiritually (saved from hellfire)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Condemnation. Those who are separated from God are in sin and the wages of sin is death.. you either endure till the end of your life here on earth, or when Jesus returns. whichever come first. That is why Scripture say that the race does not go to the swift or strong, but to the one that endures to the end. meaning your death. it does not mention anything about till Jesus returns.

If this is true, Salvation is by works, We must all endure in christ and continue to work because our salvation is not secure, We must endure to the end if we want to be saved.

Thanks, but no thanks, I will never trust myself to save myself. Because I KNOW I can do so. Thats why I trust God, Because he promised to save me based on my faith, Not on me enduring.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It can be viewed as being saved from either one but particularly since Jesus in the scripture spoke on that many would suffer for his name sake,it is talking about enduring to the end,as in which ever end,death or judgement day shall be saved,speaking on salvation,not being kept from tribulation but rather enduring what the people of the world will throw at us.

I disagree brother, that it can be viewed as being saved either way..

If it is enduring to be saved from hellfire, Salvation is based on how well we endure, If we do not endure, we are lost forever.. That is a salvation based on performance and works, not on grace and mercy.

If we endure to the end of tribulation, think About the reward we will recieve, We get to see Christ return and defeat the enemy, and then enter his kingdom years, where we will see things happen on earth which have not occurred since the fall.

I think that is a GREAT inner promise and reason to keep enduring through the worst tribulation all mankind, let alone believers, will suffer on earth.

 

[DJ2]

It is by our actions that we SHOW we are right with God and not by an empty profession of faith that remains alone - (barren of works - James 2:14-18).

It's you who is fighting the obvious because you teach salvation by works. James is arguing against an empty profession of faith (says-claims to have faith) and not genuine faith. Salvation through faith (rightly understood) alone - Ephesians 2:8,9 is not to be confused with what James means by faith alone (dead faith that remains alone/barren of works).

When James says "faith alone" he is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. Acts of obedience/works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.

In Hebrews 11:31, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She proved her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all true believers prove theirs.

I already thoroughly explained James 2:24 in post #187, yet that verse is a major stumbling block for works salvationists, such as Roman Catholics, Mormons and even Campbellites.

They were not that long and drawn out, but I'm sure the truth went right over your head. I explained the truth of James 2:14-26 in a simple way.

It is you who is unable to see the forest for the trees because you teach faith alone regeneration. Something that is clearly the opposite of what James is teaching. Regardless of your "rightly understood" definition of faith, it is still not faith alone that saves. A man can have faith to move a mountain but without obedience he is still lost. We may debate what needs to be obeyed but not the need to obey. It is this obedience and faith that saves.

Rahab was not merely showing or demonstrating her "authentic" faith, she was obeying the command that was to save her. An action that if not obeyed as commanded would have led to her doom. It was the act of tying the cord that saved her, not her faith alone. This is the block you keep tripping over.

I thoroughly read your post# 187 and is a carbon copy of faith alone salvationists, such as Joseph Prince, Oral Roberts and even followers of Benny Hinn.

Your post is most certainly drawn out. If you need the following:

Romans 4:2-3
Luke 7:29
Matthew 11:19
1st John 4:18
Genesis 15:6
Acts 16:31
Matthew 12:37
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

to explain such simple verses, you have not just stumbled but have tumbled down the hill of self-denial.

 

[joefizz]

I disagree brother, that it can be viewed as being saved either way..

If it is enduring to be saved from hellfire, Salvation is based on how well we endure, If we do not endure, we are lost forever.. That is a salvation based on performance and works, not on grace and mercy.

If we endure to the end of tribulation, think About the reward we will recieve, We get to see Christ return and defeat the enemy, and then enter his kingdom years, where we will see things happen on earth which have not occurred since the fall.

I think that is a GREAT inner promise and reason to keep enduring through the worst tribulation all mankind, let alone believers, will suffer on earth.

Either way I plan on enduring in Jesus's name unto death,we'll all know the truth eventually until then we are free to discuss God's word with one another though still being aware that some will seek our deaths for doing so but that's what Jesus meant by "endure" keep on moving forward with him and for him until he returns in full glory on judgement day.

 

[MarcR]

When you understand, and act on your understanding, that the only way to a relationship with God is total trust in what Jesus has done for us, and that alone, you are saved.