baptism

[7seasrekeyed]

Sorry, you've been deceived.
Those scriptures do NOT legitimize sin.

are there scriptures that legitimize sin?

OF COURSE NOT

you are simply twisting what people are saying in order to present your flawed understanding of the doctrine of sin

confused you are and confused you will stay

why?

you do no seem able to respond to a post without first an attempt at re-writing what the poster actually said

logically, I tend to think you do the same with scripture

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Christian Perfectionism- Introduction
Some people actually claim that they have reached a state in the Christian life where they just don’t sin anymore. Wait a minute, doesn’t the Bible say that if we actually think something like this we are deceiving ourselves and are, in fact, calling God a liar?

Christian Perfectionism- Not Biblical
Christian perfectionism is not biblical doctrine. 1 John 1:8 clearly states: “If we claim to be without sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.” While willful sin ought not to characterize our life, sin will remain a part of human experience until we lay aside our physical body at death (Rom. 7). In fact, the wisest man who ever lived (Solomon) said: “Who can say, I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin?”

Christian Perfectionism- A Narrow Definition of Sin
Many who believe that they have reached sinless perfection actually have a very narrow and limited view of sin. Some actually argue that only deliberate disobedience to God’s will is actually sin. However, this is not the way the Bible describes sin at all. Sin can be committed in thought, word, and deed, and, of course, there are sins of commission as well as omission. To be truly sinless means that you love God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and, of course, that you love your neighbor as well. To be perfect in a biblical sense means that you mirror the very image of Jesus Christ Himself. This will take place in heaven, but certainly not here on earth.

source

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Christian Perfectionism- Justified, but not Yet Perfect
While the Christian is never intrinsically perfect in this life (or completely sanctified), we have been justified because of the work of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). So positionally we’re declared righteous (in Christ) though practically we still wrestle with sin. Our confidence, however, is that we are considered perfect in the sight of God because we are united with the Lord Jesus Christ through faith.


Christian Perfectionism- Closeness to God Brings Awareness of Sin
Look at the people in the Bible. When they were really close to God, they didn’t claim to be sinless. Instead, they became increasingly aware of their sin (Isa. 6:5; Dan. 9:4-19; Eph. 3:8). Paul, of course, cried out: “O wretched man that I am.” According to R. C. Sproul, the doctrine of sinless perfection is, in fact, perfect error!

We seek to live holy lives, not to put God in our debt, but merely to demonstrate gratitude for His unmerited love.

source

 

[PJW]

Out of curiosity, and for clarification to the rest of us sinners....
Are you saying that you, as a believer, NEVER physically or spiritually do anything at all that is a sin?

That is correct, and to be expected in those that love God above all else.

You never lie, even accidentally, you never judge, you never think harsh thoughts about someone, you never misjudge a brother or sister, you don't ever have any impure thoughts, you don't suffer from pride..... You, in your physical body never do anything that is a sin?

John writes..."All unrighteousness is sin."
I have been reborn of God's seed and cannot bear evil fruit.

Is that what you are saying?

That is what I'm saying, to the credit of God, in Jesus' name!
The Jews waited for a Messiah who would conquer their enemies, but Jesus conquered an enemy far worse than Rome.
He conquered sin.
We can be "in Christ", and partake of that victory.

 

[PJW]

Christian Perfectionism- Introduction
Some people actually claim that they have reached a state in the Christian life where they just don’t sin anymore.

Wait a minute...aren't we reborn sinless?
I was, and remain in the light where all my past sins were wiped away.

Wait a minute, doesn’t the Bible say that if we actually think something like this we are deceiving ourselves and are, in fact, calling God a liar?

In 1 John 1, John is addressing two kinds of men: some walk in the light and some in the darkness.
If you are walking in darkness, you cannot say you "have no sin".
But if you walk in the light, which was earlier said to be God, you can say you "have no sin".
In the light, all our sins have been washed away.
Thanks be to God!

Christian Perfectionism- Not Biblical

Christian perfectionism is not biblical doctrine. 1 John 1:8 clearly states: “If we claim to be without sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Compare that misinterpretation with 1 John 1:6..."If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
Or with 1 John 2:4..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Or with 1 John 3:8..."He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
Or with 1 John 5:18...."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
You need to rethink your POV.

” While willful sin ought not to characterize our life, sin will remain a part of human experience until we lay aside our physical body at death (Rom. 7). In fact, the wisest man who ever lived (Solomon) said: “Who can say, I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin?”

Romans 6:3-6 will tell you how to "lay aside the physical body", and verse 7 tells the result..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
BTW, Solomon was never reborn of God's seed.

Christian Perfectionism- A Narrow Definition of Sin

Many who believe that they have reached sinless perfection actually have a very narrow and limited view of sin. Some actually argue that only deliberate disobedience to God’s will is actually sin. However, this is not the way the Bible describes sin at all. Sin can be committed in thought, word, and deed, and, of course, there are sins of commission as well as omission. To be truly sinless means that you love God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and, of course, that you love your neighbor as well. To be perfect in a biblical sense means that you mirror the very image of Jesus Christ Himself. This will take place in heaven, but certainly not here on earth.

I adhere to John's description of sin..."All unrighteousness is sin." (1 John 5:17)

Perfection...against temptation, is a byproduct of love for God and neighbor.
Isn't that what we are called to do?

 

[Endoscopy]

Umm… the only problem with the washing of the feet does not portray/pictures/signifies the death, burial and resurrection. Yea immersion is incomplete; it only portrays the death but never a resurrection which completed the overall mission of our Lord. Resurrection is important for if Christ did not rise from the dead, our faith is in vain and we are yet in our sins. Immersion is only a part of baptism yet the method of immersing, dipping and rising are scripturally demonstrated picturing the gospel or what Christ did.

When Philip preach about Jesus to the eunuch and the eunuch believed, they were both came into the water, then the eunuch was baptized and both came out of the water (Acts 8:35-40). This simply could not be washing of the feet because there was much water. Washing of feet can be done through basin as cleansing of the foot. This cleansing is rather a picture of being a servant and not salvation.

God bless

You ignore the fact that a basin of water could immerse the foot. Thus doesn't preclude immersion. Again l point out the symbolism of this word is in keeping with the concept of baptism. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

 

[Endoscopy]

The other possible root word is totally about immersion with the example of a sinking ship. Nothing in this word has any significance about the meaning of the concept of baptism like the other word does. No cleansing just sinking.

 

[Endoscopy]

Again this word is only used by those trying to force the issue of immersion.. Nothing else about this word relates to the symbolism of representing the cleansing from sin that acceptance of Jesus as savior accomplishes. Cleansing the foot of dirt directly relates to this. Foot is the person and dirt is the sin. So explain to me how a sinking ship relates to the symbolism of the removal of sin.

 

[hornetguy]

The other possible root word is totally about immersion with the example of a sinking ship. Nothing in this word has any significance about the meaning of the concept of baptism like the other word does. No cleansing just sinking.

Good grief. You just keep pounding away at the wrong meaning of baptism. You are totally brainwashed....

If Jesus and the apostles had MEANT that baptism was a "cleansing ritual", they would have used the Greek word for that cleansing ritual.

When Jesus and the apostles used the Greek word baptizo, they were signifying an IMMERSION, because that's what that word means. Baptism is not MEANT to be a cleansing, it is meant to be an appeal to God, and a representation of the burial and resurrection of Jesus, signifying the death of the "old man" and the birth of the "new man".

In fact, Peter even taught CLEARLY that baptism is NOT a "cleansing"... you have seen this scripture, have you not?

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God [SUP][q][/SUP]for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

You can keep hammering away, trying to teach baptism by dipping, pouring, wiping down, whatever, but there is NO scriptural basis for that teaching, and NO scriptural evidence that baptism was anything but complete immersion.

and it was not to represent a "cleansing".... It represents a new birth... You have missed the concept, and the intent.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Wait a minute...aren't we reborn sinless?
I was, and remain in the light where all my past sins were wiped away.


In 1 John 1, John is addressing two kinds of men: some walk in the light and some in the darkness.
If you are walking in darkness, you cannot say you "have no sin".
But if you walk in the light, which was earlier said to be God, you can say you "have no sin".
In the light, all our sins have been washed away.
Thanks be to God!


Compare that misinterpretation with 1 John 1:6..."If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
Or with 1 John 2:4..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Or with 1 John 3:8..."He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
Or with 1 John 5:18...."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
You need to rethink your POV.


Romans 6:3-6 will tell you how to "lay aside the physical body", and verse 7 tells the result..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
BTW, Solomon was never reborn of God's seed.


I adhere to John's description of sin..."All unrighteousness is sin." (1 John 5:17)

Perfection...against temptation, is a byproduct of love for God and neighbor.
Isn't that what we are called to do?

you simply give a spin to anything and everything

there is no other way you could come up with the error that you do

but of course, you sit under error so you would do them proud

I adhere to John's description of sin..."All unrighteousness is sin." (1 John 5:17)

Perfection...against temptation, is a byproduct of love for God and neighbor.
Isn't that what we are called to do?

you do not understand the doctrine of sin

and I understand that apart from a spiritual intervention, you will continue on

this belief of sinlessness is erratic at best and downright dangerous at worst

you are no more sinless than anyone else in the entire world without Jesus and every person here who names the name of Christ is equally as sinless as you are.

no more, no less

you just can't stand that to be so because then you are not as special as you erroneously believe you and your congregation are

 

[hornetguy]

That is correct, and to be expected in those that love God above all else.


John writes..."All unrighteousness is sin."
I have been reborn of God's seed and cannot bear evil fruit.


That is what I'm saying, to the credit of God, in Jesus' name!
The Jews waited for a Messiah who would conquer their enemies, but Jesus conquered an enemy far worse than Rome.
He conquered sin.
We can be "in Christ", and partake of that victory.

Then, you are a much better man than the apostle Paul was. Or, the apostle Peter. Or, I suppose, ANYONE other than Jesus.

The second "perfect" person is now walking among us. (according to you) You have been horribly misled, my friend.

 

[Donmech]

you simply give a spin to anything and everything

there is no other way you could come up with the error that you do

but of course, you sit under error so you would do them proud



you do not understand the doctrine of sin

and I understand that apart from a spiritual intervention, you will continue on

this belief of sinlessness is erratic at best and downright dangerous at worst

you are no more sinless than anyone else in the entire world without Jesus and every person here who names the name of Christ is equally as sinless as you are.

no more, no less

you just can't stand that to be so because then you are not as special as you erroneously believe you and your congregation are

It is apparent that no amount of reasoning whether by wisdom of men or more importantly the truth of scripture, Chambellites are totally deceived. They are dogmatically taught to argue and respond to every question with canned responses. Satin has deceived this poor man to the point he will not even acknowledge his own sin nature. Its sad, because I for one don't care weather he sees things my way or not, I would only want to see him come to Christ, humbling himself and taking himself and self-righteousness out of the picture, and trust in the finished work on Calvary. I think the best thing for this person and the thousands like them would be to pray that the scales would be removed from their eyes and holy spirit conviction would revival truth before its eternally to late.

 

[hornetguy]

It is apparent that no amount of reasoning whether by wisdom of men or more importantly the truth of scripture, Chambellites are totally deceived. They are dogmatically taught to argue and respond to every question with canned responses. Satin has deceived this poor man to the point he will not even acknowledge his own sin nature. Its sad, because I for one don't care weather he sees things my way or not, I would only want to see him come to Christ, humbling himself and taking himself and self-righteousness out of the picture, and trust in the finished work on Calvary. I think the best thing for this person and the thousands like them would be to pray that the scales would be removed from their eyes and holy spirit conviction would revival truth before its eternally to late.

What a childish, accusatory, asinine response. But, even in your short time here, I've come to expect that from you.

Your perception of "Campbellites" is totally wrong. I imagine you would consider me a Campbellite, and I have NEVER been coached or taught to argue and respond to anything. Especially what you call "canned" responses. I was taught to take people at face value, and NOT try to pigeon-hole them into some type of group, in order to remove my responsibility to listen and actually understand what they are saying.

I sense that you are incapable of carrying on an adult discussion of Biblical views... your approach is to speak in generalities based on your broad-brush categorization of people.

It's pretty sad, actually. I believe that YOU are the one deceived by "Satin"..

 

[PJW]

you simply give a spin to anything and everything
there is no other way you could come up with the error that you do
but of course, you sit under error so you would do them proud
you do not understand the doctrine of sin
and I understand that apart from a spiritual intervention, you will continue on
this belief of sinlessness is erratic at best and downright dangerous at worst
you are no more sinless than anyone else in the entire world without Jesus and every person here who names the name of Christ is equally as sinless as you are.
no more, no less
you just can't stand that to be so because then you are not as special as you erroneously believe you and your congregation are

If you think that obedience to God is impossible, why do you pursue it at all?
Those reborn of God's seed can only bring forth after their own Progenitor.

Speaking of "naming the name of Christ", it is written..."[FONT=&quot]Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ [/FONT]depart from iniquity." (2 Timothy 2:19[FONT=&quot])
[/FONT]Depart from iniquity...hmmm...is that false doctrine too?

 

[Donmech]

What a childish, accusatory, asinine response. But, even in your short time here, I've come to expect that from you.

Your perception of "Campbellites" is totally wrong. I imagine you would consider me a Campbellite, and I have NEVER been coached or taught to argue and respond to anything. Especially what you call "canned" responses. I was taught to take people at face value, and NOT try to pigeon-hole them into some type of group, in order to remove my responsibility to listen and actually understand what they are saying.

I sense that you are incapable of carrying on an adult discussion of Biblical views... your approach is to speak in generalities based on your broad-brush categorization of people.

It's pretty sad, actually. I believe that YOU are the one deceived by "Satin"..

Do you follow Chambellite teachings? Honestly, I haven't considered you much at all. You have posted a few thought provoking lines, however you seem to be the individual who consistently reverts to name calling. My desire for someone to acknowledge truth, this you call "asinine" ! If you feel that I am incapable of carrying on an adult conversation, you have my permission to scroll past my post. Please be specific about generalities which you claim I am speaking of, I have only posted what can easily be researched and verified concerning Chambellites. Please help me with my deception of satin, where am I deceived concerning sinless perfection.

 

[PJW]

Then, you are a much better man than the apostle Paul was. Or, the apostle Peter. Or, I suppose, ANYONE other than Jesus.
The second "perfect" person is now walking among us. (according to you) You have been horribly misled, my friend.

Paul wrote..." Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (Timothy 2:19)
He also wrote..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Corinthians 15:34)
He also wrote..."For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)

Peter wrote..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

And Jesus said..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)

I'm getting the impression that you just don't believe the bible is true.

 

[hornetguy]

Paul wrote..."Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (Timothy 2:19)
He also wrote..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Corinthians 15:34)
He also wrote..."For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)

Peter wrote..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

And Jesus said..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)

I'm getting the impression that you just don't believe the bible is true.

Peter sinned against the Gentile believers so that Paul had to take him to task....

[SUP]11 [/SUP]But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he [SUP][i][/SUP]stood condemned. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For prior to the coming of certain men from [SUP][j][/SUP]James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing [SUP][k][/SUP]the party of the circumcision. [SUP]13 [/SUP]The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

the words of Paul, describing his sin nature... his fleshly body, versus his spiritual nature.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold [SUP][m][/SUP]into bondage to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Both apostles still sinned, but they were covered by the forgiveness brought to us by Jesus. Human beings still sin, but we are forgiven.

We cannot say we never sin, we CAN say God will not hold it against us if we confess to Him.

 

[hornetguy]

Do you follow Chambellite teachings? Honestly, I haven't considered you much at all. You have posted a few thought provoking lines, however you seem to be the individual who consistently reverts to name calling. My desire for someone to acknowledge truth, this you call "asinine" ! If you feel that I am incapable of carrying on an adult conversation, you have my permission to scroll past my post. Please be specific about generalities which you claim I am speaking of, I have only posted what can easily be researched and verified concerning Chambellites. Please help me with my deception of satin, where am I deceived concerning sinless perfection.

Name calling? I have called you no names. I have no need to do that. Your nature is evident through your posts.

I follow, to the best of my ability, JESUS' teachings. I am not a disciple of Alexander or Thomas Campbell... but since you painted all "Campbellites" with the same brush, why don't YOU give me a list of "Campbellite teachings" that are erroneous, and I will tell you if I agree with them, or not.

You were calling on people to acknowledge YOUR concept of truth, not truth itself.

You have been deceived by Satan (note the correct spelling) to believe that you, as a believer, NEVER sin. That is a lie of Satan. We all sin... it is simply that as believers, we are covered, if we are faithful to confess our sins. So only in THAT nature are we "sinless".

If you claim that you can live your life as a believer and never do anything sinful, you are a liar. Scripture proves that.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

If you think that obedience to God is impossible, why do you pursue it at all?
Those reborn of God's seed can only bring forth after their own Progenitor.

Speaking of "naming the name of Christ", it is written..."Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Timothy 2:19)
Depart from iniquity...hmmm...is that false doctrine too?

well, anyone can quote scripture...the devil knows the Bible better than most Christians

you write in an accusatory manner...ie, trying to tell me what I think...that's the part you hope I will argue over because we both know you have no clue what someone is thinking here. unless of course your practice witchcraft? so you hope I'll take the bait and go off down some bunny trail with you

people do not create other believers. only God grants the new birth through Christ

it seems you may have been reborn after whoever taught you the mish mash you post, instead of after the Son of God

well, if God knows those who are His, you need to stop telling people they do not belong to God

you are not God and He has not given you the keys to the kingdom

you really make no sense whatsoever

 

[Donmech]

Name calling? I have called you no names. I have no need to do that. Your nature is evident through your posts.

I follow, to the best of my ability, JESUS' teachings. I am not a disciple of Alexander or Thomas Campbell... but since you painted all "Campbellites" with the same brush, why don't YOU give me a list of "Campbellite teachings" that are erroneous, and I will tell you if I agree with them, or not.

You were calling on people to acknowledge YOUR concept of truth, not truth itself.

You have been deceived by Satan (note the correct spelling) to believe that you, as a believer, NEVER sin. That is a lie of Satan. We all sin... it is simply that as believers, we are covered, if we are faithful to confess our sins. So only in THAT nature are we "sinless".

If you claim that you can live your life as a believer and never do anything sinful, you are a liar. Scripture proves that.

Sir, I believe you have me confused with someone else, I absolutely do not believe that I am sinless. Its not my truth its God's truth. The truths which I have referenced are the scriptures, go back and read my post, you will see that I have not offered my opinions at all. As far as name calling you have called my response childish, and asinine in effect calling me names. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I believe that I am sinless but let me assure you I do not believe that. Had you read my post as you say you have, you would have known my position on this subject.
Chambellite teachings:

https://www.biblebelievers.com/Davis1.html​