The end of the world is coming. What should we be looking for?

[preacher4truth]

1 Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1 Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1 Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Look at what Paul says to the Thessalonians - the day would not "overtake" them - in other words the fast approaching day would not surprise them when it came within their lifetime.e

If Paul was predicting the day of the Lord 1970 years and counting into the future his statements in the above would be pointless to write as they would be long dead.

To me it appears Paul was uncertain of the time of the event, and that if it happened in their lifetime it would not overtake them in a bad sense. I'm not seeing him saying it would happen in their lifetime as you suggest.

Anyhow, is this what took place in Thessalonica in 70 a.d.?

1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

It also appears that Paul expected to be among the living at this events commencement.

 

[Issachar92]

We are seeing alotta signs right now, including but not limited to:

*Ecumenicalism
*Lawlessness
*Third temple in Jerusalem
*Israel been back in the land for a while
*Everybody being against Israel, just like the bible says
*The world entering churches through worldly music and other pandering to the world to attract more converts, just like the pharisees went long distances for converts
*Natural disasters are getting worse and worse, and more frequent
*Folks are denying all these signs
*Nations are getting together for economy and other reasons, borders becoming meaningless
*Mark of the beast technology already available

 

[Locutus]

To me it appears Paul was uncertain of the time of the event, and that if it happened in their lifetime it would not overtake them in a bad sense. I'm not seeing him saying it would happen in their lifetime as you suggest.

Anyhow, is this what took place in Thessalonica in 70 a.d.?

1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

It also appears that Paul expected to be among the living at this events commencement.

I don't think we can be certain that Paul expected to be among the living when the above happened - maybe he didn't even though he appears to write in that way.

When we look at other places in the scripture there is a definite sense of imminence:

Rom 13:11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.

Rom 13:12 The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.

Paul in the above seems to pretty well convinced that the day of salvation was near - how can it be said that this "near" would be 1970 years and counting into his and the Romans future?

Heb 10:37 For yet in a very little while, he who is coming will come, and will not delay.

In Hebrews we have another imminence statement, "a very little while" does not convey 100's of years into the future.

1 Pet 4:7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

1 Pet 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Peter is claiming the "end is near" and that "it is time" - these statements are not indicative of something 100's of years later than when he wrote.

Acts 2:17 And it shall be in the last days......etc

Peter at the day of Pentecost states in the last days.

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

Years after Peter's Pentecost speech we have John proclaiming that the last days have become the last hour.

Mat 10:23 But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

When we take the above statements from three witnesses and compare them with what Jesus said in the above and our theology is not in alignment with them then our theology needs adjustment.

 

[trofimus]

We are seeing alotta signs right now, including but not limited to:

*Ecumenicalism
*Lawlessness
*Third temple in Jerusalem
*Israel been back in the land for a while
*Everybody being against Israel, just like the bible says
*The world entering churches through worldly music and other pandering to the world to attract more converts, just like the pharisees went long distances for converts
*Natural disasters are getting worse and worse, and more frequent
*Folks are denying all these signs
*Nations are getting together for economy and other reasons, borders becoming meaningless
*Mark of the beast technology already available

*Ecumenicalism (not having any impact on our daily life)
*Lawlessness (same as always)
*Third temple in Jerusalem (pure fantasy so far)
*Israel been back in the land for a while (OK, but what about it?)
*Everybody being against Israel, just like the bible says (actually, Israel was constituted by the majority in the UN)
*The world entering churches through worldly music and other pandering to the world to attract more converts, just like the pharisees went long distances for converts (nothing new, do you think that the medieval church was better?)
*Natural disasters are getting worse and worse, and more frequent (or you have more informationú
*Folks are denying all these signs (because its easy to deny them)
*Nations are getting together for economy and other reasons, borders becoming meaningless (what sign is this?)
*Mark of the beast technology already available (only if you belive that the mark of the beast is a technological device)

 

[abcdef]

To me it appears Paul was uncertain of the time of the event, and that if it happened in their lifetime it would not overtake them in a bad sense. I'm not seeing him saying it would happen in their lifetime as you suggest.

Anyhow, is this what took place in Thessalonica in 70 a.d.?

1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

It also appears that Paul expected to be among the living at this events commencement.

Jesus told the apostles in Lk 21:20-24, that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that the times of the gentiles would begin.

He also confirmed that there would be a final resurrection from the dead.

So how did the apostles view the time line of the 2 events?

Jerusalem would be demolished, and the sometime after that, the resurrection would take place, but how soon after the destruction would the resurrection take place?

I doubt that the apostles would have guessed that it would be over 1900 years in the future.

They probably thought that some would live to see the resurrection.

 

[Locutus]

I doubt that the apostles would have guessed that it would be over 1900 years in the future.

They probably thought that some would live to see the resurrection.

They weren't guessing unlike futurist theologies, they knew by inspiration that the end of "all things" was at hand. It's you doubting Thomas' that play the guessing game.

Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near

Luke 21:28 “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

1 Pet 4:7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of [fn]prayer.

So either the apostles and Jesus were wrong or your theology is wrong.
​

 

[abcdef]

*Ecumenicalism (not having any impact on our daily life)
*Lawlessness (same as always)
*Third temple in Jerusalem (pure fantasy so far)

*Israel been back in the land for a while (OK, but what about it?)

This is a good point.

I believe that the great tribulation of Israel is a time with a beginning, and a time with an end. It is expressed as the times of the gentiles in Lk 21:20-24, 24.

This is the time that the gentiles have power over Jerusalem. Not the whole land, when Israel is restored to control over Jerusalem is the requirement in Lk 21:24.

God's withdrawing of blessings on Israel, after the flesh, really began when they rejected the gospel and then the gentiles were the receivers of the blessings (The Holy Spirit Kingdom that began on Pentecost).

It came to a conclusion of one part in 70 ad.

=======

The rest of the tribulation of Israel by the Gentile/Roman nations lasted until Israel was restored to control over Jerusalem in 1967.

Yes/ No/ Maybe so?

*Everybody being against Israel, just like the bible says (actually, Israel was constituted by the majority in the UN)
*The world entering churches through worldly music and other pandering to the world to attract more converts, just like the pharisees went long distances for converts (nothing new, do you think that the medieval church was better?)
*Natural disasters are getting worse and worse, and more frequent (or you have more informationú
*Folks are denying all these signs (because its easy to deny them)
*Nations are getting together for economy and other reasons, borders becoming meaningless (what sign is this?)
*Mark of the beast technology already available (only if you belive that the mark of the beast is a technological device)

..............................

 

[abcdef]

They weren't guessing unlike futurist theologies, they knew by inspiration that the end of "all things" was at hand. It's you doubting Thomas' that play the guessing game.

"All things" is the destruction of their homes, land and everything that they knew in 70 ad., approx.

I agree with you on this.

Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near

70 ad, I agree

Luke 21:28 “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

"When these things BEGIN", The Kingdom that came on Pentecost is our redemption in Jesus 33 ad., again, I agree with you.

1 Pet 4:7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of [fn]prayer.

70 ad, so what is the problem?

So either the apostles and Jesus were wrong or your theology is wrong.

Well, I'm agreeing with you on these scriptures, so if I'm wrong, you are wrong.​

 

[Locutus]

"All things" is the destruction of their homes, land and everything that they knew in 70 ad., approx.

I agree with you on this.

70 ad, I agree

"When these things BEGIN", The Kingdom that came on Pentecost is our redemption in Jesus 33 ad., again, I agree with you.

70 ad, so what is the problem?

Well, I'm agreeing with you on these scriptures, so if I'm wrong, you are wrong.
​

What's the problem?

The problem is you are placing the redemption at Pentecost, when Jesus said it would "begin" when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies.

Paul states that the "salvation" was nearer when he wrote well after Pentecost:

Romans 13:11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now ]salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.

 

[abcdef]

What's the problem?

The problem is you are placing the redemption at Pentecost, when Jesus said it would "begin" when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies.

You agree that Matt 24, Lk 21, etc., is about the dest of 70 ad.

But the dialog was not limited to the dest of Jeru. itself, but also the things that would lead up to the dest.

Which would be wars and rumours of wars etc.,

But before all these, salvation, redemption, the Pentecost Kingdom would come.

What was the redemption at the dest of Jeru.?

Paul states that the "salvation" was nearer when he wrote well after Pentecost:

Romans 13:11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now ]salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.

Yes, his death, the finish of the race.

What salvation was there at the dest of Jeru.?

Only mass murder and genocide, destruction, fleeing for their lives.

 

[Locutus]

Yes, his death, the finish of the race.

He was not speaking of redemption via death, his or the Romans

What salvation was there at the dest of Jeru.?

The redemption/salvation that Jesus said would begin at that time - when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies

Only mass murder and genocide, destruction, fleeing for their lives.

No, there was both salvation/redemption/deliverance and judgement associated with that time period.

Paul clearly states the 1st century Christians were waiting for that day of redemption/salvation:

Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Do you think that Paul had a different day of redemption in mind to Jesus?

Luke 21:28 “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

"When these things begin to take place" read the context from Luke 21:20.

 

[PennEd]

Ed said he does not understand why I continually preach that Jesus was not predicting the end of the world.

In reply, may I direct you to the thread here entitled, "The Rapture". Look, and you will find it. Check out the fanatic obsession with that one thread. Look at the "visits" and the "replies." They are in the multiple THOUSANDS... for that one post, about one subject. (That is not even in the Bible.)

It is this kind of obsession that I feel is the primary reason to keep on pointing out that the Bible never speaks of a "Surprise Rapture", and you can't find a mention of it in even one of the creeds that are the basis of everything our denominations claim to believe.

It is a sickness I believe Satan has infected the church with, and I believe it may destroy many of us.

Ok. I have a little time to get into this. First, I know it's known, but I'll say it again anyway. Preterists, partial preterists, dispensationalists, and partial dispensationalists, and everyone in between, are my brothers and sisters in Christ, that I love, if they have been born again by hearing, and believing the ONE true Gospel of WHO Jesus is, and WHAT He has done.

The Gospel aside, I believe doctrinal issues are similar to political issues, in that one issue doesn't just sit out there on it's own, separate from other issues. They are intermingled. Therefore it is necessary to bring in doctrines that may seem unassociated from the rapture issue.

Before I get into rapture specifics, and examples in Scripture, I want to address the point that the word "rapture" does not occur in the Word. This is really a specious claim. Virtually ALL of us have argued here, and in person, many times, the charge that the word "trinity" does not appear in the Word. Yet we believe in the Triune nature of God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Also, an argument can be made that the word rapture IS in a sense in Scripture. The word in English is from the Latin rendering "rapturo" of the Greek "Harpazo" used 13 times in the New Testament, NOT all referring to what we think of when we speak of THE Rapture.

Here is the Definition and uses of Harpazo:

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 320"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5"]Strong's Number: 726[/TD]
[TD="width: 120, bgcolor: #ECD8A5, align: center"]Browse Lexicon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Original Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Word Origin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]aJrpavzw[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]from a derivative of (138)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Transliterated Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]TDNT Entry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Harpazo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]1:472,80[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Phonetic Spelling[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Parts of Speech[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]har-pad'-zo [/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Verb[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"]Definition[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]

1. to seize, carry off by force
2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3. to snatch out or away

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"]King James Word Usage - Total: 13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 150"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"]KJV Verse Count[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Matthew[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Acts[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2 Corinthians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1 Thessalonians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jude[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Revelation[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][HR][/HR][/TD]
[TD][HR][/HR][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Total[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament." These files are public domain.

 

[PennEd]

This Pastor is very close to my belief structure. PLEASE DON'T be LAZY and simply attack the Pastor! I have several issues with him, both on Scripture, and personally. BUT, that doesn't mean he's wrong on other issues: If you don't want to watch the video, that's fine, but since his view is so close to mine, I probably won't engage questions that are addressed in the video, and I don't want to write a novel on just Matthew 24, that he covers.

There are MANY other reasons I'm Premillenial, but these passages are a good place to start:

[video=youtube;cXheAALWTHE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXheAALWTHE[/video]

 

[DaveWatchman]

Concerning the signs of the times, are we supposed to be looking at the sky and the alignment of planets and stars, the sun and the moon?

The sun and moon will not be darkened until after the tribulation is over, immediately before we are caught up into the clouds with Jesus. (Matthew 24:29-31)

Concerning ourselves, shouldn’t we be looking instead at the last church age, of the Laodica, (Revelation 3:14-22) to see if our doctrines aligned with them, or are contrary to them?

Shouldn’t we be looking at the signs Jesus gave in Matthew chapter 24, or are we looking at something different in order to exempt ourselves?

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Matthew 24:3)

What do you mean by: "are we looking at something different in order to exempt ourselves?

I think you did fine listing the signs, I think the signs are given. If we're lucky we might get a strange little global earthquake. I think the AofD is the most important indicator, and it's here too. From that, I think that I can get a lock fit on the 1290 days. So I'm like Paul right now, don't buy anything, but if you do, don't plan on having it for very long. This old world is going to be rolled up like a scroll..

I think that about in two weeks time we are going to transition from the second watch, to the third watch. And this third watch is going to run head first into the days of Noah by New Years Eve. Some say 378, 371, 370 or 365. I think it's going to be just like in the days of Noah. Even the 150 days is in there, the 5 month season of the locust. If I'm wrong about this, I'm sorry.

It looks like the night began after the third moon of the tetrad with the first watch, Lamentations 2:19 was the example, there's a mathematical connection to the "darkened" sun. (Let The Reader Understand). That was the time to watch and pray and lift up our hands to the Lord for the lives of our children. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days. They're starving at every street corner for a famine of the Word, so flee into the wilderness while the USA became the 21st nation to legalize same sex marriage. Count exactly 1290 days from then until a "darkened" sun and a moon that will not give it's light. I can't believe that could be a coincidence.

At the beginning of the middle watch, like Judges 7:16-20, we had just set that watch. The people are divided into three companies. The empty jars have torches put into them. The fire will be concealed until just like the day that Lot left out from Sodom. The jars are then smashed, signifying the sudden destruction that will occur on that day. As these jars are shattered beyond all hope of repair, so will the people be shattered beyond all hope of repair.

When the third and the last watch of the night begins, the people remain in three divisions. For then there will be great tribulation. The camp is slaughtered until the heat of the day, 1 Samuel 1:11. Those who survived were scattered, so that no two of them were left together. During this last watch of the night the LORD looked down from the pillar of fire, like Exodus 14:24, the Son of Man is revealed. Wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The great city is split into three parts, split into thirds. Not a third to be spared, total destruction. They will know that the Lord has spoken in His zeal.

Our appointed time of the end appears to be 1260 days in duration, split into three divisions of 420 days. The Revelation 12 sign appears to be pointing to the setting of the third and last watch of the night. After Jupiter leaves the body of Virgo, in mid November, it has a conjunction with Venus. That conjunction measures 420 days to a sun that will be "darkened" and a moon that will not give it's light. The two brightest planets in our visible sky will combine and serve to underscore Jupiter's presence in the heavens. The Son of Man is revealed.



"If he comes in the second watch,
or in the third, and finds them awake,
blessed are those servants!




And also notice how Mars enters into Virgo's body, just as Jupiter and Venus are in conjunction. I don't know what's up with that. Maybe I'll check when Mars exits the body.

 

[DaveWatchman]

I do not see any Scripture saying we should be looking, but we always need to be ready, but I do not know all of the Scriptures so I am sure that there are some here that will post the Scriptures that would say we need to look for His coming, which would be great because I like know as much of the Scriptures as I can.

"And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
​

 

[abcdef]

He was not speaking of redemption via death, his or the Romans

The redemption/salvation that Jesus said would begin at that time - when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies

Really? So when Jerusalem was surrounded by Roman armies, and everyone inside was going to die from starvation or Roman sword, You think that was some kind of salvation, or redemption?

How is that????

No, there was both salvation/redemption/deliverance and judgement associated with that time period.

I'm going to agree, to a point.

The people who believed the prophecies of Jesus were saved from the dest. and judgement.

But you are mixing up the eternal salvation with the escape of the believers from Jerusalem BEFORE it was surrounded.

Paul clearly states the 1st century Christians were waiting for that day of redemption/salvation:

Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Do you think that Paul had a different day of redemption in mind to Jesus?

That would be the the day of the last judgement, yet to come Rom 14:11-12, "...every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." This hasn't happened yet.

You don't believe in a future resurrection, yet.

Luke 21:28 “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

"When these things begin to take place" read the context from Luke 21:20.

Lk 21:31, "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand."

When they begin,

The kingdom came on the day of Pentecost.

 

[Locutus]

Lk 21:31, "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand."

When they begin,

The kingdom came on the day of Pentecost.

No, there is not one mention of Pentecost in Luke 21:20 - 28, Jesus is predicting those events in 21:20 - 28 when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and stated that it's destruction was near:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Jerusalem was not "desolated" at Pentecost, it stood for another 30 or so years.

I don't see how you can read Pentecost into any of the above.

 

[abcdef]

No, there is not one mention of Pentecost in Luke 21:20 - 28, Jesus is predicting those events in 21:20 - 28 when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and stated that it's destruction was near:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Jerusalem was not "desolated" at Pentecost, it stood for another 30 or so years.

I don't see how you can read Pentecost into any of the above.

So why did you stop at v 28?

I already gave you v 31 which said that the kingdom was near.

The kingdom came, salvation came, redemption came at Pentecost, for those who accepted the gospel.

Future events at the time that they were spoken by Jesus on the mount.

The redemption of Pentecost came at the beginning of events leading to the dest.

 

[Willie-T]

Ok. I have a little time to get into this. First, I know it's known, but I'll say it again anyway. Preterists, partial preterists, dispensationalists, and partial dispensationalists, and everyone in between, are my brothers and sisters in Christ, that I love, if they have been born again by hearing, and believing the ONE true Gospel of WHO Jesus is, and WHAT He has done.

The Gospel aside, I believe doctrinal issues are similar to political issues, in that one issue doesn't just sit out there on it's own, separate from other issues. They are intermingled. Therefore it is necessary to bring in doctrines that may seem unassociated from the rapture issue.

Before I get into rapture specifics, and examples in Scripture, I want to address the point that the word "rapture" does not occur in the Word. This is really a specious claim. Virtually ALL of us have argued here, and in person, many times, the charge that the word "trinity" does not appear in the Word. Yet we believe in the Triune nature of God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Also, an argument can be made that the word rapture IS in a sense in Scripture. The word in English is from the Latin rendering "rapturo" of the Greek "Harpazo" used 13 times in the New Testament, NOT all referring to what we think of when we speak of THE Rapture.

Here is the Definition and uses of Harpazo:

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 320"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5"]Strong's Number: 726[/TD]
[TD="width: 120, bgcolor: #ECD8A5, align: center"]Browse Lexicon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Original Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Word Origin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]aJrpavzw[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]from a derivative of (138)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Transliterated Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]TDNT Entry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Harpazo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]1:472,80[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Phonetic Spelling[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Parts of Speech[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]har-pad'-zo [/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Verb[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"]Definition[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]

1. to seize, carry off by force
2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3. to snatch out or away

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"]King James Word Usage - Total: 13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 150"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"]KJV Verse Count[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Matthew[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Acts[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2 Corinthians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1 Thessalonians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jude[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Revelation[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][HR][/HR][/TD]
[TD][HR][/HR][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Total[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament." These files are public domain.

Even baby Christians know the word, "Rapture" is not in the Bible. No one argues that, and I certainly brought up nothing about a specific "word". I said the Rapture (the entire concept of secretly being whisked away) is totally foreign to the Bible. It has been invented by piecing together parts of unrelated verses taken from various sections of the book.

 

[Locutus]

So why did you stop at v 28?

I already gave you v 31 which said that the kingdom was near.

The kingdom came, salvation came, redemption came at Pentecost, for those who accepted the gospel.

Future events at the time that they were spoken by Jesus on the mount.

The redemption of Pentecost came at the beginning of events leading to the dest.

There was no need to continue past v 28, you are trying to prove something that was future to Pentecost as happening at Pentecost - v31 is irrelevant to the point

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Was salvation at Matt 12:28?

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Was Mark 1:15 the day of salvation?

You just can't focus on one line of text to try and back up your position AB.