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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#41
I agree that Arian heresy caught hold in Byzantium and the West; but it was never a large problem in Syria, Ethiopia, or Carthage.
But it was the bishop of Egyptian Alexandria who was the one correcting the general church.

He also gained the title "Athanasius Contra Mundum" (Latin for Athanasius Against the World), because all were against him.

So we cannot just say "what is from Alexandria is suspicous, gnostics everywhere, allegory everywhere, they did not believe in the deity of Christ" etc...
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#42
..the mss used by the NASB, ESV, NIV, &c., are older and more reliable? How does anyone know they are older?
The dating of ancient manuscripts is imprecise. One would imagine that carbon dating would have been used since its discovery, but has rarely been used for dating manuscripts. So textual scholars generally rely on Paleography (style of handwriting) as well as the quality of the manuscript.

It is generally accepted by textual scholars that the handful of ancient manuscripts which have been used to form the "critical texts" which support modern Bible versions -- Aleph A B C D -- belong to the 4th century AD. However, what has generally NOT been accepted is that these are the most corrupt in comparison to the bulk of New Testament manuscripts. So they are certainly not the most reliable.

Under normal circumstances (and for secular writings) the older a manuscript is the closer it should be to the original. However when dealing with the Bible, Christians should understand that because there has been intense spiritual warfare in all ages, the Bible also came under attack, and it was primarily through Gnostics. And Christians who were contemporary with the Gnostics have testified that the Gnostics corrupted the Bible. Alexandria in Egypt was a hotbed of Gnosticism, and the library and Catechetical School at Alexandria were controlled by Gnostics such as Origen, Clement of Alexandria etc. And it is generally accepted that both Codex Vaticanus (B) and Codex Sinaiticus (Aleph) originated here.

Corruption is primarily omissions (deletions) of words, phrases, and whole sentences, and doctrinal bias was clearly involved in many of these omissions. But it is also additions and transpositions, along with scribal blunders and carelessness which are all evidence of corruption. A good example of corruption the omission of the Last Twelve Verses of Mark. Codex Vaticanus actually has a space which has been left empty, and which should have been exactly filled with this passage. Instead of accepting this as proof that this passage is genuine, textual critics deliberately chose to cast doubt on the authenticity of this passage.

Bottom Line: For New Testament manuscripts OLDEST = WORST. However, the delusions of Westcott & Hort have so seriously affected textual scholars, that almost all of them promote the idea that oldest equals best.

If anyone wants better insight into this matter, he should read The Revision Revised by Dean John William Burgon. It is an expose of the fallacies of Westcott & Hort, and how their critical text destroyed the Revised Version of 1881. And all critical texts to this day are carbon copies of W &H.
 
Apr 23, 2017
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#43
Alexandria in Egypt was a hotbed of Gnosticism, and the library and Catechetical School at Alexandria were controlled by Gnostics such as Origen, Clement of Alexandria etc.
u really need to stop speaking about early church fathers if u havent even read them....... its clear u havent u see..... had u bothered to look up even one of origen's writings u would know he was fighting against gnosticism u see....... as was every other church father. even the dreaded augustine was opposing manicheanism and he is constantly blamed for being one...... u see how false this is????
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#44
u really need to stop speaking about early church fathers if u havent even read them....... its clear u havent u see..... had u bothered to look up even one of origen's writings u would know he was fighting against gnosticism u see....... as was every other church father. even the dreaded augustine was opposing manicheanism and he is constantly blamed for being one...... u see how false this is????
Just because you love Origen does not mean that what was stated is false. See below:

Origen’s Gnostic Belief System


By Dr. Ken Matto

Gnosticism was and is a belief that all matter is evil and that freedom comes through knowledge. The word Gnostic comes from the Greek word “gnosis” which means “knowledge.” The Gnostics of the first and second century had approximately eight basic beliefs as listed in "The Gnostics, the New Versions, and the Deity of Christ" by Jay Green.

1) They claimed to have a higher knowledge than that of Christianity.
2) They believed they were Spirit while others were soul and body.
3) They believed that matter was evil.
4) Their views produced sensuality and asceticism.
5) They rejected the Old Testament and God.
6) They allegorized the Scriptures to create a bridge between Gnosticism and Christianity.
7) They saw Christ as an inferior god to ones they created such as Demiurge or The Artificer.
8) They believed that Christ’s body was an illusion.

Even before the death of the Apostle John, a Gnostic named Cerinthus was already denying the deity of Christ. Origen (185-254 AD) was a heretic and Gnostic and along with Clement of Alexandria (d. 215 AD) helped to corrupt the manuscripts giving us the false versions of today. Here are 14 of Adamantius Origen's beliefs. When he taught, he wore the pagan robes of the pagan philosopher plus he castrated himself based on his Gnostic views of the evil of the flesh.

1) He believed the Holy Spirit was a feminine force.
2) He believed in Soul Sleep
3) He was a very strong proponent of Baptismal regeneration
4) He believed that Jesus was only a created being and Gnosticism taught that Jesus became Christ at his baptism but that he was never God. He was a just a good man with very high morals.
5) He believed in the doctrine of Purgatory
6) He believed in transubstantiation
7) He believed in the transmigration of the soul and reincarnation of the soul.
8) He doubted the temptations of Jesus in Scripture and claimed they could have never happened.
9) The Scriptures were not literal. He was the father of allegory.
10) Genesis 1-3 was a myth, not historical or literal, as there was no actual person named "Adam."
11) Based upon Matthew 19, a true man of God should be castrated, which he did to himself.
12) He taught eternal life was not a gift, instead one must grab hold of it and retain it.
13) Christ enters no man until they mentally grasp the understanding of the consummation of the ages. (It was Frederick Dennison Maurice in the 19th century who defined eternal life as coming to a knowledge of God. This is the essence of Gnosticism.)
14) He taught there would be no physical resurrection of the believers.

Origen's belief system clearly indicates that he was a Gnostic Greek Philosopher and not a true child of God. For who can hold these 14 beliefs and still consider themselves saved? The greatest corruption of the biblical manuscripts happened in the 2nd century in Alexandria when the true Antiochan manuscripts were mutilated to adapt to the beliefs of the Gnostics and Arians.
Origen's Gnostic Belief System

Heretical church father?

Origen has always been controversial. His reported self-mutilation, in response to
Matthew 19:12 ("… there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven….") was condemned as a drastic misinterpretation of the text. In Palestine he preached without being ordained and was so condemned by his bishop, Demetrius. When on a second trip, he was ordained by the same bishops who had invited him to speak the first time, Demetrius sent him into exile.

While some of his writings are thought to have been hypothetical, Origen did teach that all spirits were created equal, existed before birth, and then fell from grace. Furthermore, "those rational beings who sinned and on account fell from the state in which they were, in proportion to their particular sins, were enslaved in bodies as punishment"—some demons, some men, and some angels. He also believed that all spirits, even Satan, could be saved. "The power of choosing between good and evil is within the reach of all," he wrote.


Most notably, however, Origen described the Trinity as a hierarchy, not as an equality of Father, Son, and Spirit. And though he attacked Gnostic beliefs, like them, he rejected the goodness of material creation.


Three centuries after his death, the Council of Constantinople (553) pronounced him a heretic: "Whoever says or thinks that the punishment of demons and the wicked will not be eternal … let him be anathema."

Some contend that Origen was merely trying to frame the faith in the ideas of his day; still his works were suppressed following his condemnation, so modern judgment is impossible.
Origen | Christian History

Origen is usually considered to be a church father, but he was never canonised as a saint because some groups believed that some of his teachings contradicted those attributed to the apostles, notably the Apostles Paul and John. Origen was condemned by Pope Demetrios I of Alexandria, the condemnation (which was never lifted) was recognized by Rome but was rejected in the provinces of Palestine, Phoenicia, Arabia, and Achaia.

Origen was anathematised at the Second Council of Constantinople and four subsequent ecumenical councils (Constantinople III, Nicaea II, Constantinople IV, and Florence). His teachings on the pre-existence of souls and the final reconciliation of all creatures, including perhaps even the devil (the
apokatastasis) were rejected by the church.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen
 
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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#45
So Origen was heretic, because he believed in the salvation of all beings.

Well, we have many such "heretics" on this forum too.

I do not think its relevant to the manuscripts issue at all. There were many both "heretics" and real heretics throughout the Roman empire.

I am not quite sure how you would be identified with your KJV Onlyism in those days. But I have a feeling...
 
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#46
i do like origen....... his writings are very "approachable" to me....... i like it. i dont agree with him but i like him u see ..........

but dr ken matto dont care for. another kjvonlyist with revisionist history u see.......
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#47
Pelagius was from Britain, does that automatically mean that any brittish manuscript is intentionally corrupted?

Such thinking is wrong.
 
Apr 23, 2017
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#48
Pelagius was from Britain, does that automatically mean that any brittish manuscript is intentionally corrupted?

Such thinking is wrong.
the anglican church is from britain u see...... and they are calvinists. therefore pelagius was a calvinist.......
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#49
the anglican church is from britain u see...... and they are calvinists. therefore pelagius was a calvinist.......
KJV translators were calvinists.

Therefore all KJV Only guys must be calvinists.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#50
So Origen was heretic, because he believed in the salvation of all beings.

Well, we have many such "heretics" on this forum too.

I do not think its relevant to the manuscripts issue at all. There were many both "heretics" and real heretics throughout the Roman empire.
If you held to certain false doctrines and you were working on manuscripts which contradicted them, would you continue to hold to your false beliefs or would you falsify the documents to conform to them?

There is absolutely no question that heretics falsified the Scriptures to make them conform to their false teachings. So instead of expressing your subjective opinion, do some serious research into what was happening during and immediately after the Apostolic Age. There is plenty of documentary evidence.

We know that Origen in Palestine, Lucian at Antioch, Hesychius in Egypt, “revised” the text of the N. T. Unfortunately, they did their work in an age when such fatal misapprehension prevailed on the subject, that each in turn will have inevitably imported a fresh assortment of monstra into the sacred writings.

Add, the baneful influence of such spirits as Theophilus (sixth Bishop of Antioch, A.D. 168), Tatian, Ammonius, &c., of whom we know there were very many in the primitive age,—some of whose productions, we further know, were freely multiplied in every quarter of ancient Christendom:—

add, the fabricated Gospels which anciently abounded; notably the Gospel of the Hebrews, about which Jerome is so communicative, and which (he says) he had translated into Greek and Latin:—

lastly, freely grant that here and there, with well-meant assiduity, the orthodox themselves may have sought to prop up truths which the early heretics (Basilides, A.D. 134, Valentinus, A.D. 140, with his disciple Heracleon, Marcion, A.D. 150, and the rest,) most perseveringly assailed;—and we have sufficiently explained how it comes to pass that not a few of the codices of primitive Christendom must have exhibited Texts which were even scandalously corrupt.

that the worst corruptions, to which the New Testament has ever been subjected, originated within a hundred years after it was composed: that Irenæus [A.D. 150] and the African Fathers, and the whole Western, with a portion of the Syrian Church, used far inferior manuscripts to those employed by Stunica, or Erasmus, or Stephens thirteen centuries later,when moulding the Textus Receptus.” [71]

And what else are codices Aleph B C D but specimens—in vastly different degrees—of the class thus characterized by Prebendary Scrivener? Nay, who will venture to deny that those codices are indebted for their preservation solely to the circumstance, that they were long since recognized as the depositories of Readings which rendered them utterly untrustworthy?
The Revision Revised, pp. 55-56
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#51
but dr ken matto dont care for. another kjvonlyist with revisionist history u see.......
So you despise Ken Matto? Well why don't you read The Revision Revised (which I have quoted above) and see for yourself the truth about ancient manuscripts. Or would you prefer to keep your blinders on and spout propaganda about KJVonlyists?

With such responses, one has to wonder whether Christians sincerely want the truth about this matter, or would prefer to skirt the issue and go off on tangents because the truth means discarding their false beliefs about modern Bible versions?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#52
If you held to certain false doctrines and you were working on manuscripts which contradicted them, would you continue to hold to your false beliefs or would you falsify the documents to conform to them?
Origen was working on manuscripts? Do you have any evidence?

Origen falsified manuscripts according to his beliefs? Do you have any evidence?

There is absolutely no question that heretics falsified the Scriptures to make them conform to their false teachings...There is plenty of documentary evidence.
Give mi lets say 3 examples, no problem when there are plenty of them.

Show me in so called alexandrian text how the text is conformed the the "false teachings" of Origen.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#53
If you held to certain false doctrines and you were working on manuscripts which contradicted them, would you continue to hold to your false beliefs or would you falsify the documents to conform to them?

There is absolutely no question that heretics falsified the Scriptures to make them conform to their false teachings. So instead of expressing your subjective opinion, do some serious research into what was happening during and immediately after the Apostolic Age. There is plenty of documentary evidence.



The Revision Revised, pp. 55-56
Do you hold the same view also when applied to the Textus Receptus?

Textus receptus was compiled by the Roman Catholic priest. Compiled from the late manuscripts from the area where arianism had its center. Translated by calvinists (which you seem to be very against).

So many heretics and "heretics". So they clearly falsified the text, right? Or do you apply this view only on what you do not like?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#54
Origen was working on manuscripts? Do you have any evidence?
Since a genuine well-respected textual scholar -- Dean Burgon -- already gave you that evidence (and also quoted another genuine well-respected scholar -- Prebendary Scrivener) in the quote I provided, why don't you corroborate what he has stated by doing your own personal research?

This is not a matter of subjective opinions, neither is it a matter of ignoring the facts which don't suit your stance.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#55
Since a genuine well-respected textual scholar -- Dean Burgon -- already gave you that evidence (and also quoted another genuine well-respected scholar -- Prebendary Scrivener) in the quote I provided, why don't you corroborate what he has stated by doing your own personal research?

This is not a matter of subjective opinions, neither is it a matter of ignoring the facts which don't suit your stance.
Your problem is, that for you, a genuine and well-respected textual scholar is only that one who is for the KJV/TR.

In opposite to your two or three there are thousands of others. Much more respected.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#56
Your problem is, that for you, a genuine and well-respected textual scholar is only that one who is for the KJV/TR. In opposite to your two or three there are thousands of others. Much more respected.
Now that you have to face the truth it becomes evident that YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH (and neither can Muzungu who likes you post).

So back to subjective opinions about who is right and who is wrong. In a court of law the judge would ask you to stick to the actual evidence, not opinions. The judge would also tell you that out of 1,000 witnesses, if 995 agree and 5 disagree, then the witness of the majority must prevail.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#57
Now that you have to face the truth it becomes evident that YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH (and neither can Muzungu who likes you post).

So back to subjective opinions about who is right and who is wrong. In a court of law the judge would ask you to stick to the actual evidence, not opinions. The judge would also tell you that out of 1,000 witnesses, if 995 agree and 5 disagree, then the witness of the majority must prevail.
We are waiting for any actual evidence from your side.

So far you only quote your two favourite scholars and ignore thousand of others. This is not any evidence.

And any logic you used against the alexandrian text can be applied even in more strength against the TR.

So, still waiting...
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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#58
Principles can be stated, like:

When we have three manuscripts:

Man1 has: "I went to cinema".
Man2 has: "Yesterday, I went to cinema"
Man3 has: "Yesterday evening, I went to cinema".

Its probable that Man3 origin is not immediately after Man1 and that Man1 does not belong between Man2 and Man3...

---

But to show it on actually existing manuscripts? We would need to have them or at least software for that.

This may or may not be the case,
but it's certainly no kind of logical necessity.

This fails to be a logical necessity for a whole number of different reasons.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#59
So Origen was heretic, because he believed in the salvation of all beings.

Well, we have many such "heretics" on this forum too.
Are there universalists here? Are they hiding? :eek:
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#60
But it was the bishop of Egyptian Alexandria who was the one correcting the general church.

He also gained the title "Athanasius Contra Mundum" (Latin for Athanasius Against the World), because all were against him.

So we cannot just say "what is from Alexandria is suspicous, gnostics everywhere, allegory everywhere, they did not believe in the deity of Christ" etc...
Athenasius did not practice allegorical interpretation. He was exceptional; and would have been exceptional wherever he was.

I am NOT KJV only. I do favor the TR and the Majority text.