Me, too.

[Beez]

I am new here -- just a couple days into Christian Chat -- but I am sure this site has dealt with the "Me, too" campaign that continues in our country.

Yes, I joined in that campaign this year. Just a short "why":
Over my life, I was sexually harassed by four pastors, two neighbors, a coworker, and a stranger. Enough about that.

So I am going to write this simply, because the following problem is so simple I don't understand why anyone of average (and lower) intelligence doesn't understand.

The subject of this post is that, in my opinion,
1. Christian women sometimes wear clothes that are too revealing.
2. Christian women sometimes talk and act in ways they shouldn't.
3. Real men will not respond to the above, but weak ones often will.

If you are showing cleavage, that is a problem.
Too much leg? That is a problem.
Clothes too tight? That is a problem.

I know that some males don't need the above to be jerks, but we need to do our part to stop this idiocy.

Further, stop being silent about it! Confront. Tell. You must, not only to protect yourself but to protect others after you. It is embarrassing, it makes you feel dirty, but you have to tell!

And if you have to, hurt them. If you are not the fighting type, take a class to learn how to defend yourself.

And most important, teach your daughters and sons what is acceptable touch and what is not. If you don't, you set them up for abuse, participating in it.

Assure your daughters and sons that it is safe for them to tell you if someone makes them uncomfortable No matter who it is -- your father, a grandfather, an aunt, your close friend, the pastor -- protect your child. Support him/her. Comfort him/her. And if you need to prosecute, do it. If you need to change churches, shake the dust off your feet and move on.

 

[Thehappymom]

I am new here -- just a couple days into Christian Chat -- but I am sure this site has dealt with the "Me, too" campaign that continues in our country.

Yes, I joined in that campaign this year. Just a short "why":
Over my life, I was sexually harassed by four pastors, two neighbors, a coworker, and a stranger. Enough about that.

So I am going to write this simply, because the following problem is so simple I don't understand why anyone of average (and lower) intelligence doesn't understand.

The subject of this post is that, in my opinion,
1. Christian women sometimes wear clothes that are too revealing.
2. Christian women sometimes talk and act in ways they shouldn't.
3. Real men will not respond to the above, but weak ones often will.

If you are showing cleavage, that is a problem.
Too much leg? That is a problem.
Clothes too tight? That is a problem.

I know that some males don't need the above to be jerks, but we need to do our part to stop this idiocy.

Further, stop being silent about it! Confront. Tell. You must, not only to protect yourself but to protect others after you. It is embarrassing, it makes you feel dirty, but you have to tell!

And if you have to, hurt them. If you are not the fighting type, take a class to learn how to defend yourself.

And most important, teach your daughters and sons what is acceptable touch and what is not. If you don't, you set them up for abuse, participating in it.

Assure your daughters and sons that it is safe for them to tell you if someone makes them uncomfortable No matter who it is -- your father, a grandfather, an aunt, your close friend, the pastor -- protect your child. Support him/her. Comfort him/her. And if you need to prosecute, do it. If you need to change churches, shake the dust off your feet and move on.

This is so true

 

[Depleted]

I am new here -- just a couple days into Christian Chat -- but I am sure this site has dealt with the "Me, too" campaign that continues in our country.

Yes, I joined in that campaign this year. Just a short "why":
Over my life, I was sexually harassed by four pastors, two neighbors, a coworker, and a stranger. Enough about that.

So I am going to write this simply, because the following problem is so simple I don't understand why anyone of average (and lower) intelligence doesn't understand.

The subject of this post is that, in my opinion,
1. Christian women sometimes wear clothes that are too revealing.
2. Christian women sometimes talk and act in ways they shouldn't.
3. Real men will not respond to the above, but weak ones often will.

If you are showing cleavage, that is a problem.
Too much leg? That is a problem.
Clothes too tight? That is a problem.

I know that some males don't need the above to be jerks, but we need to do our part to stop this idiocy.

Further, stop being silent about it! Confront. Tell. You must, not only to protect yourself but to protect others after you. It is embarrassing, it makes you feel dirty, but you have to tell!

And if you have to, hurt them. If you are not the fighting type, take a class to learn how to defend yourself.

And most important, teach your daughters and sons what is acceptable touch and what is not. If you don't, you set them up for abuse, participating in it.

Assure your daughters and sons that it is safe for them to tell you if someone makes them uncomfortable No matter who it is -- your father, a grandfather, an aunt, your close friend, the pastor -- protect your child. Support him/her. Comfort him/her. And if you need to prosecute, do it. If you need to change churches, shake the dust off your feet and move on.

Eight men sexually harassed you? There is one of two reasons for that:
1. You are hypervigilant and see any innocent act as "sexual harassment." (Considering what you think causes it is myopic, I lean toward that choice.)
2. You really were abused somewhere in your life, and never dealt with it so give off the victim vibe so predators pick it up.

Either way, don't mind me for not accepting your counsel. It's shallow and poorly understood.

 

[Beez]

No problem, Depleted. We all make our own choices. Bless you!

 

[mj007]

I think part of it is, how do you change men, rather than making society a tactile-paranoid one?

What I observe with a lot of feminism (which isn't actually what feminism is), is that it is very pro-women, and not really pro-change the culture of men.

If this isn't part of the balance and equality (true feminism) of how it is addressed, then it comes across more anti-men, than pro-woman and pro-man.

It is the anti-men (feminazi) approach which has blurred the lines of what is and what is not sexual harassment.

Sexualisation of women is a problem. Pornography is a problem. I don't see how anything has the power to do anything while these are not addressed. These seem to be a part of culture. The film industry has taken small approaches to addressing the sexualisation of women, while feminazi's do not.

But highlighting the abuse that does happen, that is a good thing. But like anything, many get on the bandwagon and use something for their own agenda.

Here is an angle, and I have had it in my head for many years. Everything has a source. Such things as sexualisation and pornography, in movies and media, all have a creator, a manager, a 'top of the chain'. We should find out and observe who these people are. Such significant people can cause a lot of damage. Now are they just people? Business men? Or are there things about them we don't know? eg. Harvey Weinstein. Who are they friends with, what is their choice of company? What kind of movies do they like? What kind of things do they allow? Is there anything in their business venture which highlights who they are?

But we can condemn the men who touch our knee if this is equally important. I guess this is easier than the hard stuff.

 

[blue_ladybug]

I don't see ANYTHING "shallow or poorly understood" in her post..

Eight men sexually harassed you? There is one of two reasons for that:
1. You are hypervigilant and see any innocent act as "sexual harassment." (Considering what you think causes it is myopic, I lean toward that choice.)
2. You really were abused somewhere in your life, and never dealt with it so give off the victim vibe so predators pick it up.

Either way, don't mind me for not accepting your counsel. It's shallow and poorly understood.

 

[MarcR]

I think that women who look nice visually are probably more likely to be harassed.

The culture in the USA promotes the attitude (not just among men) that when you see something nice you think' I gotta have that'.

I've been happily married for 47 years; and want to stay that way, so it is not my problem! But one has to be blind not to recognize it in our culture.

Because I see it as a cultural issue, I have no idea what can be done about it.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Eight men sexually harassed you? There is one of two reasons for that:
1. You are hypervigilant and see any innocent act as "sexual harassment." (Considering what you think causes it is myopic, I lean toward that choice.)
2. You really were abused somewhere in your life, and never dealt with it so give off the victim vibe so predators pick it up.

Either way, don't mind me for not accepting your counsel. It's shallow and poorly understood.

i see what you mean

i agree with the over all point of the post

but there are dogmatic implications within the post i disagree with

 

[NoNameMcgee]

i see what you mean

i agree with the over all point of the post

but there are dogmatic implications within the post i disagree with

(by the way my response is only to your closing two sentences and i feel "poorly understood" is harsh)

 

[Joidevivre]

I'm presently seeing a dentist for my prosthetic - he is probably in his late 60s - and always sitting by my chair. Often, he rests his hand on my thigh while talking to me. Some would yell "abuse", but I see nothing wrong in it. I even feel comforted. I sense that my body is the last thing on his mind, and he is of the "old school" when not every touch was abuse.

I have experienced what abuse looks and feels like, but are we maybe getting a little unbalanced with this?

 

[Ugly]

I am new here -- just a couple days into Christian Chat -- but I am sure this site has dealt with the "Me, too" campaign that continues in our country.

Yes, I joined in that campaign this year. Just a short "why":
Over my life, I was sexually harassed by four pastors, two neighbors, a coworker, and a stranger. Enough about that.

So I am going to write this simply, because the following problem is so simple I don't understand why anyone of average (and lower) intelligence doesn't understand.

The subject of this post is that, in my opinion,
1. Christian women sometimes wear clothes that are too revealing.
2. Christian women sometimes talk and act in ways they shouldn't.
3. Real men will not respond to the above, but weak ones often will.

If you are showing cleavage, that is a problem.
Too much leg? That is a problem.
Clothes too tight? That is a problem.

I know that some males don't need the above to be jerks, but we need to do our part to stop this idiocy.

Further, stop being silent about it! Confront. Tell. You must, not only to protect yourself but to protect others after you. It is embarrassing, it makes you feel dirty, but you have to tell!

And if you have to, hurt them. If you are not the fighting type, take a class to learn how to defend yourself.

And most important, teach your daughters and sons what is acceptable touch and what is not. If you don't, you set them up for abuse, participating in it.

Assure your daughters and sons that it is safe for them to tell you if someone makes them uncomfortable No matter who it is -- your father, a grandfather, an aunt, your close friend, the pastor -- protect your child. Support him/her. Comfort him/her. And if you need to prosecute, do it. If you need to change churches, shake the dust off your feet and move on.

As far as "blame" in the area of how a woman dresses there is constant conflict among Christians.
You have the two main groups
1) women should be able to wear whatever they want and it's a man's job to control themselves. This group is predominately, bit not exclusively made of women.
2) it's too hard to control myself so women should cover up. As expected, a predominately but not exclusively male view.

The problem here is often both groups place all the blame on the shoulders of one gender and refuse to budge, though, in my experience, group 1 is far, far less willing to even consider they hold Any responsibility. Group 2 won't deny responsibility, but claim they don't have the capabilities to control themselves.

Then there is the minority. The ones that say "we are All responsible and neither gender is the sole problem". Sometimes people will start out saying that, but as the discussion goes on you find they don't really think that way, even though they insist they do.

Part of what makes this such a difficult issue is it's somewhat subjective. Two different men may see a pretty girl in a tank top, one will barely notice and one will lust. He may try not to, but he does.

The subjective part for women is evidenced by their standards. If two guys do/say the same thing to the same woman, if a guy she's attracted to does it, it's flirting, if a guy she isn't attracted to does it, it's harassment.
By having inconsistent standards it confuses the matter. Because the matter gets confused, what's allowed becomes increasingly restricted. This leads to more accusations of sexual harassment.
This causes decent guys to avoid woman, yet the guys who are the Real problem don't change. So it actually creates a worse environment because no one decent wants to go near a woman.

At the end of the day it's each individuals responsibility. Women should maintain some level of modesty. And men should also be actively working on overcoming temptation.
But as long as people insist they don't need to change, both men and women, the issue will continue, or even get worse.

 

[Beez]

I'm sorry I did not write in a more understandable way. I tried to be very simplistic with my words and descriptions, considering the ages of people who may have access to the site. What can I say?

By the way, the last pastor I worked for was a good, decent man with true integrity. I had to leave the other jobs, but I stayed at the latest one until I retired. He was an actual pleasure to work with.

 

[Depleted]

I don't see ANYTHING "shallow or poorly understood" in her post..

Do you think she was harassed eight times because of what she wore or wasn't educated on what to do? And yet, that is very much what she is teaching.

 

[blue_ladybug]

I think she got harassed because men think with their *ahem* and not their brain. Men can be dogs, that's a fact. So can women, but seems men are more so inclined. And yes, even pastors think with their wankers and not their brains. Men and women alike, think we can do anything we want when it comes to harassing someone, whether physically or sexually..

Do you think she was harassed eight times because of what she wore or wasn't educated on what to do? And yet, that is very much what she is teaching.

 

[Beez]

Do you think she was harassed eight times because of what she wore or wasn't educated on what to do? And yet, that is very much what she is teaching.

Well, I'll write this much, since some seem to require clarification:
The first time was a neighbor, I was 9-10, I got away, but I got smacked around for asking about it.
The second time, again, I got away, the neighboring cop's wife found out what happened, and he disappeared.
Third time was the pastor of the church I attended as a teen. I learned to stay away from him. He was close friends with my preacher-father.

I was never raped -- I always got away.

That will have to do for detail.

Oh, I should add that I wore long skirts and clothes to the modest-extreme, as commanded by the church I was reared in.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Do you think she was harassed eight times because of what she wore or wasn't educated on what to do? And yet, that is very much what she is teaching.

i have a hard time talking about sexual harassment because if its the real version

not the overly sensitive version

it is a serious issue id agree that it takes a weak person who isnt behaving like a Christian to do something like that

but what made me say something was what she clearly stated was an opinion

___________
1. Christian women sometimes wear clothes that are too revealing.
agreed
2. Christian women sometimes talk and act in ways they shouldn't.
agreed
3. Real men will not respond to the above, but weak ones often will.
huh? are we no longer talking about christians? who sometimes do things they ought not to do?
___________

the real men vs weak men comment is whats throwing me off


if youre not Jesus but born as a man
you are a weak man

and if you were born as a man

you are a real man

maybe

"a christian man acting as he should"
vs
"a christian man whos acting according to his flesh or a man in unbelief"

is the difference


(that being said i do agree if some woman in belief or unbelief is making sexual advances or dressing in a way she shouldnt ... the right thing for a man to do isnt to respond in a way that condones that kind of thing and vise versa)

 

[maxwel]

My 2 cents... because I have some free time today to be annoying.


1. Nobody thinks any women should be sexually abused - nobody thinks this except for a few soulless creeps who aren't listening anyway.


2. Therefore, it is wholly irrelevant for everyone to keep repeating their public outrage about sexual abuse... as if yelling louder will somehow make it stop.

A. Decent men don't need to hear it.
B. Soulless creeps aren't listening.

The incessant public outrage is just a waste of breath, and accomplishes nothing but virtue signaling.

I'm really sorry, but I think this is all it boils down to.
Decent men don't need to be continually berated for something they'd never do, and the creepy sociopaths aren't listening.

* I understand women are upset; I'm upset too... but yelling more doesn't do anything.


3. I think it's really terrible advice to suggest women "hurt" their attackers, and learn self defense as any kind of serious solution.

A. I think taking self defense is great... it's a great "last line of defense" for a woman.

B. However, as a "first line of defense" I think women should be taught to be HYPER AWARE, and CAUTIOUS, rather than relying on self defense training.

They should learn to be careful, and prudent, and develop their common sense.

C. If you think, even for a second, that the average woman can defend herself from the average man, even after learning some self defense... you've watched way too much TV.

Even if you think a woman with a black belt can defend herself from the average man, you've watched too much TV.
There's a reason fighters all fight in categories by weight and gender... it's because weight and gender matter.

A little tiny girl, even with a black belt, is NOT going to defend herself against a big strong man.

So it's good for women to learn some self defense (for emergencies), but they shouldn't rely on it.

 

[toinena]

I never thought I was sexually harrased and it didn't cross my mind before this thread. But, thinking about it, I have actually, even me, been harrassed. I wasn't traumatizeed by it. I wasn't flattered about it.

But I got scared once, and that was in Rome, where five men grabbed me and touched me inappropiatly and of course I couldn't escape. My friend, that thought of herself as someone with superior looks, and I guess she had, thought this was strange why they attacked me and not her. I guess I was tall and blond in the midst of Italians....

The other time was on the train in France. An older man stroke his thighs against mine, trying to make me spread my legs. I was 22, I think. That one made me angry.

The third time was a couple of years ago. A man, also in a wheelchair, did some inappropriate touching on a cruise. That one made me freeze. I didn't recist and I didn't flee. I had already been trough traumatic experiences, and I didn't know how to handle it. I was confused and hurt and embarressed. (I did move eventually, and it resulted in rules of conduct in the organisation I was a leader of.)

The fourth time was a 13 year old refugee, that obviously had learned that was the way to get attention from adults. He stroke his hand up my thigh. That made me just incredibly sad. He also did similar things to other female staff members.

I don't feel like a victim, and I haven't thought of it as a problem for me, more as a problem for those that did it. I always dress quite decently and I am blessed with not a very attractive look or body, so I am not really worried about these things to happen again.

But what I do agree on, is that the problem is not the woman's but the man's.

 

[Beez]

. . . 2. Therefore, it is wholly irrelevant for everyone to keep repeating their public outrage about sexual abuse... as if yelling louder will somehow make it stop. . . .

Perhaps the reason we tell is not understood here. Certainly, there are women who have agendas different from mine, but while it is degrading to tell, to do so is a service to those who don't know. If I had told earlier, and if the church that I did had done something, other girls, boys, women, and men may have been saved what they went through. My daughter may have been saved from it. But what the church taught me was that I did not matter, and the men's faked "integrity" was more important than my safety, purity, and dignity. So no, I did not know how to protect my daughter, and no one would talk about it . . . including me, after a while!

Furthermore, because I and that church were silent, specific people in my acquaintance were damaged. A LOT of people. There were eventually lawsuits, although I did none, families broken up, and mental illness among a few. Fear among a lot.

. . . 3. I think it's really terrible advice to suggest women "hurt" their attackers, and learn self defense as any kind of serious solution.

. . . A little tiny girl, even with a black belt, is NOT going to defend herself against a big strong man.

The last pastor to accost me was my manager in large regional grocery store chain. I wanted my job, but, even knowing my husband had just recently been killed, he was constantly after me. Daily.
I was reared to be weak. I was small. But I determined that if he did anything again, I was going to hurt him. And I did. However, he got to keep his job; I did not.

Furthermore, you assume that it is "little girls" against "big men." That is not reality. So Larry was probably a foot taller. I was not a girl, and I hurt him.

I recently told my husband that if it ever happened again, I would hurt the person. And I will. I maybe an old lady, but I will hurt him!

I would like to think that since I am an old lady, it will never happen again. I may not worry about it happening, but that doesn't mean I don't have a plan.

 

[Beez]

Oh, @ Toinena! I am sorry. So sorry.