There was death before sin.
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Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
J
joefizz
Guest
A DISCLAIMER (of sorts): First, most of this is a reprint of something I'd posted in another thread. Second, I'd been praying about another topic and this idea was part of the answer to that other question. I'm sharing it because Jesus said "What you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops". Just this one little piece kind of rocked my world. Let me know what you think. And as always...Love in Jesus to you. -Kelby
Before presenting any proof that death was active before sin, I first ask you to consider... "Do you think death is different, or the same, for people vs. animals vs. plants?". (Please decide on your current answer before continuing... Thanks)
If death is death, no matter whether it is a plant , animal, or human body… then proving it in one proves it in the all the others. If death is different in each grouping, then it can still be proven that death was active (at least in one group) prior to sin.
The proof is in Genesis 1 (which is prior to even the mention of the tree of knowledge of good and evil).
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
Did you see it? (I posted it in context and am providing this interruption for those who want to find it before it is explained. ... You're welcome)
It’s in verses 29 and 30. God gave every herb as meat for man (and beast).
Have you ever eaten (or watched someone eat) a small onion or a bean sprout? Probably.
Have you ever eaten that same small onion or bean sprout without killing it? No.
That is death built right into the creation/life structure and put there by God’s own mouth, as part of a sinless system.
And if you need another example, or don’t believe that “death” is applicable to plants, consider what Jesus said….
John_12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Aren't you supposed to...
Have a point?!
Cain did not offer his gifts unto God by faith, then how did he worship? The opposite of faith is by sight (2 Cor. 5:7), that is, through human intuition. Cain worshipped according to “sight” — according to what his own senses and wisdom dictated would be an honorable gift unto the Lord. No doubt, his produce was lovely to look upon. No doubt, he labored over those crops until the harvest. No doubt he anticipated that all the hard work, time, and care he had spent on those offerings would be acceptable.
His expectation of acceptance is clearly demonstrated by his reaction to the Lord’s rejection of his sacrifice. But Cain’s offering was not rejected because he did not worship in earnest. Instead, his offering was rejected because it was offered according to his own presumption and not by faith. Faith is not simply a feeling of confident expectation. Cain had that. Rather, faith is the result of hearing God’s word, submitting the mind and body to its dominion, and acting in accordance to what the Lord has instructed.
Musicus,
Thanks for the reply.
The idea that Cain's sacrifice was unacceptable because it wasn't a blood sacrifice was brought up by someone else. I'd not thought of that aspect (But I think it interesting and might indeed be valid). But I had noticed something else...
Cain offered "an offering" which was "of the fruit of the ground" whereas Abel's offering was "of the firstlings" and "of the fat thereof". It seems to me, that Abel was offering the best of what he had while Cain's offering was just something that he had. It seems each received a response that mirrored the effort they put in. In the new testament it is said this way:
2Corinthians_9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Corinthians_9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
The sentence mentioning suicide was only an attempt to highlight the point of "death-by-[something]" whether it be death by hanging, death by starvation, or death by sin. Plants have "death by being eaten". Seeds have "death by reproductive design".
Sin is indeed ONE reason death is in the world... but it is NOT the only reason. (Isn't that a wild concept?)
BTW, some things can only be understood by seeking God in prayer. This may actually be one of them as it is not a light concept.
Keep seeking God. He loves to reveal truth.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
The point is that death was here before sin, and was introduced by God. Sin brought death in a way God did not intend but sin isn't the only reason death exists... nor is it the original. (That's kind of a shocker to some people.)
I think you are right in your thinking that there are different forms(levels) of life and death. Most bible-teaching churches, that I've been exposed to, say that ALL death was initiated by Adam's sin. Because of this stuff I've shared, it seems to me that their doctrine is at least 'incomplete'.
J
joefizz
Guest
Define death...
Notice that Adam and Eve were told they could eat of every tree except the tree of good and evil in the garden of eden,and fruit "have no will,nor consciousness" so it's not classified as "death" nor is there any account of any plants wilting or dieing altogether in the Genesis,so it's really rather "fruitless" to try to establish death when there was only "life" until sin came about.
I am not understanding why this is becoming a point of contention as to death. Plants, seeds, animals and any other created thing are secondary, the theme of the Bible is about man and his relationship with the Lord. Death was the Lord's divine punishment on man for sin and it was only to man that He made this degree in. Genesis 2:15-17
“Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
There is no mention that any other of God's creation was under this same decree, it was only man. The rest of creation was created to support the life of man, to be subdued by man and for them to be under man's submission, so of course they would have to die so that man could live. Did the rest of creation suffer because of man's sin? Yes, it did, Roman 8:18-22
“For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.”
How it suffered I do not know, if someone else has some Scripture that show what the creation suffered please post it. In the regeneration there will be a New Heavens and New Earth, we will receieve our new glorified bodies and will see Jesus face to face, we will see Him as He is, oh glorious day.
I do not understand what the big to do is about, the centeral theme of the Bible is God and His relationship with man. There are only two foods that you do not have to kill the donor the eat it, milk and honey, that was why the Lord called the promise land, the land flowing with milk and honey. He was saying that the land was full of life or it flowed with life and that life was from the Lord, because the land in and of itself is not much, unless you love rocks because there are plenty of them. You may have wondered why the Jews always had rocks around them to stone people or to stone Jesus, it is because they are every where, even in this day and age so I can only imagine how plentiful they were in Jesus' day.
“Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
There is no mention that any other of God's creation was under this same decree, it was only man. The rest of creation was created to support the life of man, to be subdued by man and for them to be under man's submission, so of course they would have to die so that man could live. Did the rest of creation suffer because of man's sin? Yes, it did, Roman 8:18-22
“For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.”
How it suffered I do not know, if someone else has some Scripture that show what the creation suffered please post it. In the regeneration there will be a New Heavens and New Earth, we will receieve our new glorified bodies and will see Jesus face to face, we will see Him as He is, oh glorious day.
I do not understand what the big to do is about, the centeral theme of the Bible is God and His relationship with man. There are only two foods that you do not have to kill the donor the eat it, milk and honey, that was why the Lord called the promise land, the land flowing with milk and honey. He was saying that the land was full of life or it flowed with life and that life was from the Lord, because the land in and of itself is not much, unless you love rocks because there are plenty of them. You may have wondered why the Jews always had rocks around them to stone people or to stone Jesus, it is because they are every where, even in this day and age so I can only imagine how plentiful they were in Jesus' day.
I'm not familiar with passages that refer to the harvesting of a plant as a "death."
Maybe God simply doesn't use the word this way.
If we do find a passage that uses the word this way,
we may find this simply isn't how the word is used when referring to events in Genesis.
Maybe God simply doesn't use the word this way.
If we do find a passage that uses the word this way,
we may find this simply isn't how the word is used when referring to events in Genesis.
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P
pottersclay
Guest
Sin entered in through one man...Adam.....and the wages of sin is death.
Consuming fruits and such was not considered the death in which the Bible speaks of......but I like the o.ps. heart in being persistent in her search for the truth.
Consuming fruits and such was not considered the death in which the Bible speaks of......but I like the o.ps. heart in being persistent in her search for the truth.
M
Miri
Guest
Plants and animals are not the same, plants are not alive in the same sense.
Life is in the blood, plants don’t have blood. Plus pulling up weeds
doesn’t kill them (if you are not sure about that come and see my garden!).
Eating fruit from a tree doesn’t kill the tree. Eating herbs doesn’t kill
the herb as more can be propagated from the same plant etc etc.
Even covering them with cement doesn’t kill them, they grow through cement.
Leviticus 17:12-14 NKJV
[12] Therefore I said to the children of Israel, 'No one among you shall eat
blood, nor shall any stranger who dwells among you eat blood.'
[13] "Whatever man of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell
among you, who hunts and catches any animal or bird that may be eaten,
he shall pour out its blood and cover it with dust; [14] for it is the life of all
flesh. Its blood sustains its life. Therefore I said to the children of
Israel, 'You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is
its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.'
Incidentally I don’t think the problem with Cain was because of the grain
offering. There are plenty of grain offerings in Leviticus. Maybe it was just
the wrong type of offering at the wrong time or maybe it was because there was
sin and wrong intent on his heart and God knew that. God was aware sin was
crouching at his door.
Genesis 4:6-7 NKJV
[6] So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your
countenance fallen? [7] If you do well, will you not be accepted? And
if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but
you should rule over it."
Life is in the blood, plants don’t have blood. Plus pulling up weeds
doesn’t kill them (if you are not sure about that come and see my garden!).
Eating fruit from a tree doesn’t kill the tree. Eating herbs doesn’t kill
the herb as more can be propagated from the same plant etc etc.
Even covering them with cement doesn’t kill them, they grow through cement.
Leviticus 17:12-14 NKJV
[12] Therefore I said to the children of Israel, 'No one among you shall eat
blood, nor shall any stranger who dwells among you eat blood.'
[13] "Whatever man of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell
among you, who hunts and catches any animal or bird that may be eaten,
he shall pour out its blood and cover it with dust; [14] for it is the life of all
flesh. Its blood sustains its life. Therefore I said to the children of
Israel, 'You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is
its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.'
Incidentally I don’t think the problem with Cain was because of the grain
offering. There are plenty of grain offerings in Leviticus. Maybe it was just
the wrong type of offering at the wrong time or maybe it was because there was
sin and wrong intent on his heart and God knew that. God was aware sin was
crouching at his door.
Genesis 4:6-7 NKJV
[6] So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your
countenance fallen? [7] If you do well, will you not be accepted? And
if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but
you should rule over it."
I was not going to commit but I decided this was too important because you bring Scripture into question and I want you to defend yourself….
Is Scripture wrong? Everything was originally perfect: God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day. ( Gen1:31)
Everything was originally vegetarian: Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so. ( Gen 1:29-30)
Death is punishment: And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.” ( Gen 2:16-17)
The first recorded death and passages referring to death as a reality came with sin in Genesis 3 when the serpent, Eve, and Adam all were disobedient to God. The Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. ( Gen 3:14).This is the first hint of animal death. Since animals were cursed, they too will now die.
Is G-d (Scripture) wrong or man?
Is Scripture wrong? Everything was originally perfect: God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day. ( Gen1:31)
Everything was originally vegetarian: Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so. ( Gen 1:29-30)
Death is punishment: And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.” ( Gen 2:16-17)
The first recorded death and passages referring to death as a reality came with sin in Genesis 3 when the serpent, Eve, and Adam all were disobedient to God. The Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. ( Gen 3:14).This is the first hint of animal death. Since animals were cursed, they too will now die.
Is G-d (Scripture) wrong or man?
Only two foods that you don't have to kill, hmm have you ever had marble syrup or peach gum sap?
Or "milk and Honey" of which neither of the two need be "killed" for you to "eat"...
Neither does tree sap.
If the use of pesticides don't get under control, probably honey will go by the wayside as well, in China bees are extremely rare so the pollination of plants comes from humans.
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