Not By Works
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"The person who does not work can not know for sure he has received God's gracious gift of the forgiveness of sin."
I would say that all the work in the world wont help if one does not know they are saved. Rather than "proving" I am saved by doing this or not doing that, I am finding that when I can have faith in who God has made me to be (righteous, holy, redeemed) DESPITE the evidence to the contrary then any good works I do flow from that.
I know for sure I am saved because I know God. He speaks to me and I to Him. Some days I do good and other days not so much but He loves me just the same. I am justified by the grace of God and nothing else. I am holy and redeemed because God says I am holy and redeemed. To say that what I do or do not do somehow alters what Jesus did for me is, in fact, the height of arrogance.
I would say that all the work in the world wont help if one does not know they are saved. Rather than "proving" I am saved by doing this or not doing that, I am finding that when I can have faith in who God has made me to be (righteous, holy, redeemed) DESPITE the evidence to the contrary then any good works I do flow from that.
I know for sure I am saved because I know God. He speaks to me and I to Him. Some days I do good and other days not so much but He loves me just the same. I am justified by the grace of God and nothing else. I am holy and redeemed because God says I am holy and redeemed. To say that what I do or do not do somehow alters what Jesus did for me is, in fact, the height of arrogance.
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 20:12-13, “And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and Death and Sheol delivered up the dead which were in them. And they were judged, every man, according to their works.” [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"every man" is word #1538 – hekastos - Strong's Concordance hekastos: each, every Original Word: ἕκαστος, η, ον Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: hekastos Phonetic Spelling: (hek'-as-tos) Short Definition: each, every one Definition: each (of more than two), every one.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"every man" is word #1538 – hekastos - Strong's Concordance hekastos: each, every Original Word: ἕκαστος, η, ον Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: hekastos Phonetic Spelling: (hek'-as-tos) Short Definition: each, every one Definition: each (of more than two), every one.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, that each one may receive his reward according to what he has done in the body, whether righteous or evil.”[/FONT]
“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]judgment seat” is word #G968 - béma: a step, raised place, by impl. A tribunal, Original Word: βῆμα, ατος, τό, Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter, Transliteration: béma, Phonetic Spelling: (bay'-ma), Short Definition: the space covered by a step of the foot, a tribunal, Definition: an elevated place ascended by steps, a throne, tribunal.[/FONT]
“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]judgment seat” is word #G968 - béma: a step, raised place, by impl. A tribunal, Original Word: βῆμα, ατος, τό, Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter, Transliteration: béma, Phonetic Spelling: (bay'-ma), Short Definition: the space covered by a step of the foot, a tribunal, Definition: an elevated place ascended by steps, a throne, tribunal.[/FONT]
IMO learning about Him is a life long journey, it's funny many times I say I want the Scriptures to be longer, 2 or 3 times as many books, but then I also learn more and more from what is there and realize no matter how much I read, pray, study and seek to walk in His will I can always learn more and go farther, continually growing to be more what He wants me to be like. Even thought I self reflect and think Im not yet what I should be in Messiha, I think Him for changing me away from the poerson I was and that I amj even on His journey! Thanks be to Yah for calling us into His will!
Psalm 119:7, "I thank You with uprightness of heart, When I learn the right-rulings of Your righteousness."
Psalm 139, "
1, O יהוה, You have searched me And know me."
2, "You know my sitting down and my rising up; You understand my thought from afar."
3, "You sift my path and my lying down, And know well all my ways."
4, "For there is not a word on my tongue, But see, O יהוה, You know it all!"
5, "You have closed me in, behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me –"
6, "Knowledge too wondrous for me, It is high, I am unable to reach it."
7, "Where would I go from Your Spirit? Or where would I flee from Your face?"
8, "If I go up into the heavens, You are there; If I make my bed in She’ol, see, You are there."
9, "I take the wings of the morning, I dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,"
10, "There, too, Your hand would lead me, And Your right hand hold me."
11, "If I say, “Darkness shall cover me,” Then night would be light to me;"
12, "Even darkness is not dark for You, But night shines as the day – As is darkness, so is light."
13, "For You, You possessed my kidneys, You have covered me in my mother’s womb."
14, "I give thanks to You, For I am awesomely and wondrously made! Wondrous are Your works, And my being knows it well."
15, "My bones were not concealed from You, When I was shaped in a hidden place, Knit together in the depths of the earth."
16, "Your eyes saw my unformed body. And in Your book all of them were written, The days they were formed, While none was among them."
17, "And how precious are Your thoughts to me, O Yah! How great has been the sum of them!"
18, "If I should count them, They would be more than the sand; When I wake up, I am still with You."
19, "Oh, that You would kill· the wrong, O Yah! Depart from me, therefore, men of bloodshed!"
20, "They speak against You wickedly. Bring Your enemies to naught!"
21, "O יהוה, do I not hate them, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?"
22, "With a complete hatred I hate them; They have become my enemies."
23, "Search me, O Yah, and know my heart; Try me, and know my thoughts;"
24, "And see if an idolatrous way is in me, And lead me in the way everlasting."
Psalm 119:7, "I thank You with uprightness of heart, When I learn the right-rulings of Your righteousness."
Psalm 139, "
1, O יהוה, You have searched me And know me."
2, "You know my sitting down and my rising up; You understand my thought from afar."
3, "You sift my path and my lying down, And know well all my ways."
4, "For there is not a word on my tongue, But see, O יהוה, You know it all!"
5, "You have closed me in, behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me –"
6, "Knowledge too wondrous for me, It is high, I am unable to reach it."
7, "Where would I go from Your Spirit? Or where would I flee from Your face?"
8, "If I go up into the heavens, You are there; If I make my bed in She’ol, see, You are there."
9, "I take the wings of the morning, I dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,"
10, "There, too, Your hand would lead me, And Your right hand hold me."
11, "If I say, “Darkness shall cover me,” Then night would be light to me;"
12, "Even darkness is not dark for You, But night shines as the day – As is darkness, so is light."
13, "For You, You possessed my kidneys, You have covered me in my mother’s womb."
14, "I give thanks to You, For I am awesomely and wondrously made! Wondrous are Your works, And my being knows it well."
15, "My bones were not concealed from You, When I was shaped in a hidden place, Knit together in the depths of the earth."
16, "Your eyes saw my unformed body. And in Your book all of them were written, The days they were formed, While none was among them."
17, "And how precious are Your thoughts to me, O Yah! How great has been the sum of them!"
18, "If I should count them, They would be more than the sand; When I wake up, I am still with You."
19, "Oh, that You would kill· the wrong, O Yah! Depart from me, therefore, men of bloodshed!"
20, "They speak against You wickedly. Bring Your enemies to naught!"
21, "O יהוה, do I not hate them, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?"
22, "With a complete hatred I hate them; They have become my enemies."
23, "Search me, O Yah, and know my heart; Try me, and know my thoughts;"
24, "And see if an idolatrous way is in me, And lead me in the way everlasting."
Indeed, Hizikyah. But honestly, I came to CC with the hope of getting a shot at revved-up learning about the Reformed ideas, and it has become disheartening. Perhaps I am having computer problems on top of phone problems on top of
I feel so deficit with regard to understanding the many Reformed ideas that I had gravitated toward such threads on another site, learning quite a bit there. However, they promised to boot me for (as I have mentioned here
) eating kosher, so I disconnected and came here instead. However, there is so much rudeness and daily repetition that it is hard to trudge through it all. I've stopped reading many of the posts.
Several times, I have wanted to copy this to both Arminians and Reformed:
"He who corrects a scoffer
gets dishonor for himself,
And he who reproves
a wicked man gets
insults for himself.
Do not reprove a scoffer,
or he will hate you,
Reprove a wise man and
he will love you." (Proverbs 9)
computer problems on top of phone problems on top of
. . . to drive me away from both and into the Book. I feel so deficit with regard to understanding the many Reformed ideas that I had gravitated toward such threads on another site, learning quite a bit there. However, they promised to boot me for (as I have mentioned here
) eating kosher, so I disconnected and came here instead. However, there is so much rudeness and daily repetition that it is hard to trudge through it all. I've stopped reading many of the posts.Several times, I have wanted to copy this to both Arminians and Reformed:
"He who corrects a scoffer
gets dishonor for himself,
And he who reproves
a wicked man gets
insults for himself.
Do not reprove a scoffer,
or he will hate you,
Reprove a wise man and
he will love you." (Proverbs 9)
Indeed, Hizikyah. But honestly, I came to CC with the hope of getting a shot at revved-up learning about the Reformed ideas, and it has become disheartening. Perhaps I am having computer problems on top of phone problems on top of
I feel so deficit with regard to understanding the many Reformed ideas that I had gravitated toward such threads on another site, learning quite a bit there. However, they promised to boot me for (as I have mentioned here) eating kosher, so I disconnected and came here instead. However, there is so much rudeness and daily repetition that it is hard to trudge through it all. I've stopped reading many of the posts.
Several times, I have wanted to copy this to both Arminians and Reformed:
"He who corrects a scoffer
gets dishonor for himself,
And he who reproves
a wicked man gets
insults for himself.
Do not reprove a scoffer,
or he will hate you,
Reprove a wise man and
he will love you." (Proverbs 9)
computer problems on top of phone problems on top of
. . . to drive me away from both and into the Book. I feel so deficit with regard to understanding the many Reformed ideas that I had gravitated toward such threads on another site, learning quite a bit there. However, they promised to boot me for (as I have mentioned here
) eating kosher, so I disconnected and came here instead. However, there is so much rudeness and daily repetition that it is hard to trudge through it all. I've stopped reading many of the posts.Several times, I have wanted to copy this to both Arminians and Reformed:
"He who corrects a scoffer
gets dishonor for himself,
And he who reproves
a wicked man gets
insults for himself.
Do not reprove a scoffer,
or he will hate you,
Reprove a wise man and
he will love you." (Proverbs 9)
Faith means believing, trusting, relying and obedience which follows and is produced "out of" faith is works. Accomplishing multiple acts of obedience/works is a manifestation of our faith, but not the essence or origin of it.
If someone died the same day that they genuinely placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (like the thief on the cross) and was unable to accomplish further acts of obedience/works afterwards (the thief was not even able to get water baptized prior to his death on the same day of his conversion) yet he still had faith and was saved.
We could not say that the thief did not accomplish multiple acts of obedience/works before he died and faith is in essence these multiple acts of obedience/works, so the thief did not have faith. The thief had neither the time or opportunity to accomplish multiple good works, yet if the thief would have been allowed to live, you would have seen a changed life in the thief, demonstrated by good works, yet he was still saved through faith apart from what good works he would have produced if allowed to live.
The thief on the cross did demonstrate his faith though by rebuking the other thief, acknowledging their guilt and that Christ was innocent and he asked Jesus to remember him when He comes into His Kingdom, demonstrating he believed that Jesus was indeed the Messiah who could save him.
If someone died the same day that they genuinely placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (like the thief on the cross) and was unable to accomplish further acts of obedience/works afterwards (the thief was not even able to get water baptized prior to his death on the same day of his conversion) yet he still had faith and was saved.
We could not say that the thief did not accomplish multiple acts of obedience/works before he died and faith is in essence these multiple acts of obedience/works, so the thief did not have faith. The thief had neither the time or opportunity to accomplish multiple good works, yet if the thief would have been allowed to live, you would have seen a changed life in the thief, demonstrated by good works, yet he was still saved through faith apart from what good works he would have produced if allowed to live.
The thief on the cross did demonstrate his faith though by rebuking the other thief, acknowledging their guilt and that Christ was innocent and he asked Jesus to remember him when He comes into His Kingdom, demonstrating he believed that Jesus was indeed the Messiah who could save him.
The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not the works; rather, life in faith is the source of the works.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works. Where is the evidence? This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
Keep in mind that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3)
Keep in mind that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3)
Yes.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Who said saved by works? That seem to be the battle cry of against any who say obedience is required. But without mercy all would be judged to fall.
But we see it clearly in Scripture, the saints have faith in Yahshua and obey the Commands, there is no speaking against this: [/FONT]
Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
We can philosophize, make excuses, quote other verses, this is fact
“the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוהand the Belief of יהושע.”
“and their works follow with them”
we can come up with anything we want, let Yah tell the truth and let every man be a liar.
Isaiah 53
1, "Who has believed our report?
Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by..."
But we see it clearly in Scripture, the saints have faith in Yahshua and obey the Commands, there is no speaking against this: [/FONT]
Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
We can philosophize, make excuses, quote other verses, this is fact
“the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוהand the Belief of יהושע.”
“and their works follow with them”
we can come up with anything we want, let Yah tell the truth and let every man be a liar.
Isaiah 53
1, "Who has believed our report?
Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by..."
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 1:20, "For since the creation of the world, the invisible things of Him are clearly seen – His eternal, power and holiness- -being understood by the things that are written; so that they are without excuse."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jeremiah 7:9-11, “Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, vow falsely, burn incense to Baal, follow hinder gods you know nothing of, And then come and stand before Me in this House upon which My Name is called, and say; We are saved! Saved to do all these abominations? Has this House, which is called with My Name, become a den of thieves in your eyes? Behold, I, even I, have seen this! says YHWH.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 2:4-12, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that YHWH’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of YHWH’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of YHWH will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai (Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with YHWH. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jeremiah 7:9-11, “Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, vow falsely, burn incense to Baal, follow hinder gods you know nothing of, And then come and stand before Me in this House upon which My Name is called, and say; We are saved! Saved to do all these abominations? Has this House, which is called with My Name, become a den of thieves in your eyes? Behold, I, even I, have seen this! says YHWH.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 2:4-12, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that YHWH’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of YHWH’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of YHWH will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai (Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with YHWH. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.”[/FONT]
Psalm 19, “The heavens are proclaiming the esteem of Yah; And the expanse is declaring the work of His hand. Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, and there are no words, Their voice is not heard. Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their words to the end of the world. In them He set up a tent for the sun, And it is like a bridegroom coming out of his room, It rejoices like a strong man to run the path. Its rising is from one end of the heavens, And its circuit to the other end; And naught is hidden from its heat. The Torah of יהוה is perfect, bringing back the being; The witness of יהוה is trustworthy, making wise the simple; The orders of יהוה are straight, rejoicing the heart; The command of יהוה is clear, enlightening the eyes; The fear of יהוה is clean, standing forever; The right-rulings of יהוה are true, They are righteous altogether, More desirable than gold, Than much fine gold; And sweeter than honey and the honeycomb. Also, Your servant is warned by them, In guarding them there is great reward. Who discerns mistakes? Declare me innocent from those that are secret, Also keep Your servant back from presumptuous ones, Do not let them rule over me. Then shall I be perfect, and innocent of great transgression. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be pleasing before You, O יהוה, my rock and my redeemer.”
Although works-salvationists often deny that they teach salvation by works, by the time one cuts through all of their sugar coated double talk, it turns out that's exactly what they teach.
Works-salvationists of various kinds confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture and play the same game in salvation as every other false movement of Christendom.
They profess to teach that salvation is by grace through faith, but then redefine this in a way that is contrary to New Testament doctrine. The result is they teach that salvation is by "grace plus law, faith plus works." Their doctrine of salvation is a subtle mixture of law and grace that is a perversion of the Gospel.
Works-salvationists of various kinds confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture and play the same game in salvation as every other false movement of Christendom.
They profess to teach that salvation is by grace through faith, but then redefine this in a way that is contrary to New Testament doctrine. The result is they teach that salvation is by "grace plus law, faith plus works." Their doctrine of salvation is a subtle mixture of law and grace that is a perversion of the Gospel.