Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok this getting a bit ridiculous now,I disagreed with Peter's view and felt an evil in him when he pursued hurting a fellow member and I called him on it,but if he has returned under another name then I do welcome him back just like with Fran if she has returned,because I believe in "second chances" and though I didn't "agree" with them I still for awhile "liked talking to them" and if they "have changed" then I look forward to talking to them again,two users may be said people but "railing on them" "isn't fruitful" and anyways if they "repeat their actions" then "history will repeat itself" so let's get back to the topic at hand while being vigilant but respectful.

I have to disagree here, If they are coming back in this way, when the owners of this site have banned them,. They are in sin, I would not want to enable their sin, They should have to wait until their ban expires like everyone else has. There are reasons they got banned. Both were pretty severe reasons. Sin has consequences, we should not try to remove the consequences.

 

[mailmandan]

WORKS:

Genesis 26:5, “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my Laws.”

FAITH:

Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness.”

FAITH + WORKS:

James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”

FAITH + WORKS:

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

There it is. You finally admit that you teach FAITH + WORKS = SALVATION. Of course, many of us already knew this.

 

[Shamah]

In the same chapter of the same letter, just a few verses later, John said the commands were- believe in the name of the Son, and love one another. no Sabbath, no Mosaic law.

lots of folks quote parts of 1st John verbatim about command keeping, the conveniently leave out that John explained what the commands were . ( because it doe not fit their agenda???)

SO then does that verse then make all the rest of the word obselete? Or should it all be looked at?

what about

Deut 18...."Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

and

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 2:24, "As for you, let that stay in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning stays in you, you also shall stay in the Son and in the Father."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Deuteronomy 6:5, “And you shall love [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]your Strength with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your might.”[/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Leviticus 19:18, ‘Do not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the children of your people. And you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."[/FONT]

John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

2 John/Yahanan 1:9, "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have Yah. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

Seems to me many want a religion about the Messiah rather than the Messiah's religion.

 

[Shamah]

WORKS:

Genesis 26:5, “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my Laws.”

FAITH:

Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness.”

FAITH + WORKS:

James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”

FAITH + WORKS:

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

There it is. You finally admit that you teach FAITH + WORKS = SALVATION. Of course, many of us already knew this.

That is what ever writer of Scripre says:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]


etc...

 

[mailmandan]

WORKS:

Genesis 26:5, “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my Laws.”

FAITH:

Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness.”

FAITH + WORKS:

James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”

FAITH + WORKS:

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, (in a legal sense, accounted as righteous) he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

 

[Shamah]

There it is. You finally admit that you teach FAITH + WORKS = SALVATION. Of course, many of us already knew this.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”[/FONT]

 

[Chester]

No lost man can "choose to believe."

I disagree (vehemently)! but lovingly!

If a lost person cannot choose to believe, why does the NT constantly say "to believe"?
Why did Paul tell the jailor in Philippi to "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved"?

Of course I believe that we cannot believe by our own efforts alone - it is only by the grace of God working in our hearts . . .

I think you believe strongly in the sovereignty of God. I do too.
But I also believe man was made in the image of God (and I don't think you believe this!)

I wouldn't be so forthright if I didn't know you can handle it! LOL!

 

[preacher4truth]

Not before being drawn (John 6:44) and enabled/granted him from the Father (John 6:65).

Faith is obtained, it's not inherent.

 

[gb9]

SO then does that verse then make all the rest of the word obselete? Or should it all be looked at?

what about

Deut 18...."Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

and

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”



Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.”


1 John 2:24, "As for you, let that stay in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning stays in you, you also shall stay in the Son and in the Father."


Deuteronomy 6:5, “And you shall love יהוה your Strength with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your might.”


Leviticus 19:18, ‘Do not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the children of your people. And you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am יהוה.”


Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."





Seems to me many want a religion about the Messiah rather than the Messiah's religion.

100% agree with the last statement. Christianity is all about Jesus, belief in the Lord Christ. not about keeping the Law of Moses. Jesus himself said- " you search the Scriptures ( O.T. ), thinking that in them , you have eternal life, yet it is those Scriptures that testify about Me, and you are still unwilling to COME TO ME ( not the law ) so that you may HAVE ( not earn ) eternal life.

 

[Shamah]

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, (in a legal sense, accounted as righteous) he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Hmm?

James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”

was belief working with his works? like I ahve been saying?

Did he obey, leave Ur, and offer his son to YHWH?

Hebrews 11, By belief they performed an action;

11:8, "By belief, Aḇraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he was about to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.11:9, "By belief, he sojourned in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Yitsḥaq and Ya‛aqoḇ, the heirs with him of the same promise,"11:10, "for he was looking for the city having foundations, whose builder and maker is Yah.
11:17, "By belief, Aḇraham, when he was tried, offered up Yitsḥaq, and he who had received the promises offered up his only brought-forth son,

 

[preacher4truth]

oh, c'mon. dead folk do stuff all the time.

lolzzzz...

I heard they're really really good at staying dead too.

All I know is God granted me faith, and every believer has obtained it in the same exact manner. Why people fight against this truth is beyond me. There is so much in Scripture that proves this and that salvation is not clinched by choice.

Anyhow I am out of here before this discussion swallows up my time and day with incessant denials of truth by way of tradition...

 

[NoNameMcgee]

lolzzzz...

I heard they're really really good at staying dead too.

All I know is God granted me faith, and every believer has obtained it in the same exact manner. Why people fight against this truth is beyond me. There is so much in Scripture that proves this and that salvation is not clinched by choice.

Anyhow I am out of here before this discussion swallows up my time and day with incessant denials of truth by way of tradition...

maybe you could stay and help sham see its not by works

 

[NoNameMcgee]

100% agree with the last statement. Christianity is all about Jesus, belief in the Lord Christ. not about keeping the Law of Moses. Jesus himself said- " you search the Scriptures ( O.T. ), thinking that in them , you have eternal life, yet it is those Scriptures that testify about Me, and you are still unwilling to COME TO ME ( not the law ) so that you may HAVE ( not earn ) eternal life.

AMEN


i owe you two reps

 

[Shamah]

100% agree with the last statement. Christianity is all about Jesus, belief in the Lord Christ. not about keeping the Law of Moses. Jesus himself said- " you search the Scriptures ( O.T. ), thinking that in them , you have eternal life, yet it is those Scriptures that testify about Me, and you are still unwilling to COME TO ME ( not the law ) so that you may HAVE ( not earn ) eternal life.

Well then you would believe and believe obeying the words of the Messiah are right?

Do you beleive these to be true:


Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of יהוה and the belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”


Revelation 22:11-15, “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood.”



John/Yahanan 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."


Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away…"


Matt 13:41-43, “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.”


John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”


John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

 

[Shamah]

maybe you could stay and help sham see its not by works

"sham", oh very nice.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 6:46, “But why do you call Me ‘Master, Master,’ and do not do what I say?”[/FONT]

 

[PennEd]

Gonna keep on my toes today to try and obtain the coveted 50,000th post!

I hear tell it's more valuable than winning the "last person to post" award.

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 4:23-26, “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also does seek such to worship Him. YHWH is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship in spirit and truth. The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming, the One who is called Christ. When that One comes, He shall tell us all things.” [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]said to her, “I who am speaking to you is He.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.” [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 – poimén)."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”[/FONT]

 

[NoNameMcgee]

James 2:21-22, Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works

context

post human went over this himself the other day


Galatians 3:6-9
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Romans 4:2-4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

"sham", oh very nice.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 6:46, “But why do you call Me ‘Master, Master,’ and do not do what I say?”[/FONT]

would you prefer hiz?

 

[joefizz]

I have to disagree here, If they are coming back in this way, when the owners of this site have banned them,. They are in sin, I would not want to enable their sin, They should have to wait until their ban expires like everyone else has. There are reasons they got banned. Both were pretty severe reasons. Sin has consequences, we should not try to remove the consequences.

I know,but it's not good to be on pins and needles "assuming" that people with similar doctrines are actually "them" granted it might be true but it may "scare off" new people who have just begun in their walk with Jesus or in a doctrine.