Not By Works

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Jesus said faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. The man said to Jesus, I believe help me in my unbelief, and Jesus still saved his daughter.

If was not jesus faith who saved anyone,

Jesus christ does not have faith in you. WHat yor saying makes no sense.
Habakuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Notice that in the OT it is one's individual faith. But Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit removes "his" because it is no longer a man's faith but the faith of Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The righteousness of God is now made known through the faith of Jesus Christ. Christ's faith is imputed to those who believe.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Habakuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Notice that in the OT it is one's individual faith. But Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit removes "his" because it is no longer a man's faith but the faith of Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The righteousness of God is now made known through the faith of Jesus Christ. Christ's faith is imputed to those who believe.
Oh my, Again, I can not continue this.

As romans said, the Just shall live by faith,. Not jesus faith. MY FAITH.

Christs righteousness is imputed to those who have faith, Not his faith.

What church do you go to again?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Oh my, Again, I can not continue this.

As romans said, the Just shall live by faith,. Not jesus faith. MY FAITH.

Christs righteousness is imputed to those who have faith, Not his faith.

What church do you go to again?
I am getting there with you. it is a waste of time, ( sadly ) to try to have an intelligent , rational conversation with those who just pluck verses out of context, and use them to say whatever they want, instead of accepting what they mean in context, and chronological order.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
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Oh my, Again, I can not continue this.

As romans said, the Just shall live by faith,. Not jesus faith. MY FAITH.

Christs righteousness is imputed to those who have faith, Not his faith.

What church do you go to again?
From faith(one's individual faith) to faith(Christ's faith).

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

If you do not believe that we are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ like Paul says, then you have to believe in one's individual's faith which has to be demonstrated by works. Faith alone is dead. Faith must produce works or it's dead.

No amount of works justifies the believer. No amount of works proves the salvation of the soul.
 

Chicken_Brent

Junior Member
Jan 10, 2018
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John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Belief is belief.
Belief isnt obedience and belief isnt servitude.

Honestly as a new believer it can be quite frustrating to see people trying to tie in works all the time.

If youre so eager to be judged by your works then why dont you.
 
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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
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I am getting there with you. it is a waste of time, ( sadly ) to try to have an intelligent , rational conversation with those who just pluck verses out of context, and use them to say whatever they want, instead of accepting what they mean in context, and chronological order.
Which one is out of context of justification:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
 
R

ruach

Guest
Not me. My faith waivers. My faith cannot deliver, only the faith of Jesus Christ. Not Christ's faith in me, but in the work of the cross. The cross delivers the believer. We are commanded to believe.

Faith has 2 working parts. God's part and man's part. Man's part could be called man's response to any circumstance that comes in his walk with Jesus.

Sitting in Christ cruise control mode and believing that Christ's own faith does it all for us, makes us easily deceived into thinking that we actually have entered into Christ's rest. The devil will not attack what is not threat to him and only defends what is an advantage to him.

We are commanded to also take up our personal shield of faith and fight the good fight of faith.

God does not respond to Jesus' faith in you or your feelings, he responds to your genuine personal faith.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Yes, the Gospel is replete with the fact it is all of Christ. All of salvation is from God, every aspect so all the glory is due to him; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

Yet, there is still the call to self-examination as well (2 Corinthians 13:5) and warnings to not be deceived. Whether or not one is truly converted is the concern and basis for these warnings. That said, we better be inspecting our own fruit, this Paul calls us to; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Galatians 5:19ff, Ephesians 5:5, Galatians 6:1-8, and of the epistle's of John, Peter's epistles, warnings from Christ and other Scriptures from Paul.

We shouldn't mitigate sin in the professing believers life when it is a lifestyle and relegate it to "If they don't stop God will kill them." That's a terrible presumption to make and no person needs assured of conversion in such a state, they should speak to a pastor and take a close look at the transforming power of the Gospel unto all who are converted; 2 Corinthians 3:17ff. It could be that the person is not truly converted.

We are all fully aware of the arguments concerning the practice and or lifestyle of sin and typically it is stated something like this; "If you sin everyday then you're practicing sin too, so let's dismiss the warnings!" This excuse is used to curtail the solemn warnings and doesn't take into account the seriousness of the warnings, it is instead entirely dismissive.

Washing our feet daily due to falling short is not a lifestyle or practice of sin, and daily repentance, asking forgiveness to me is evidence of conversion; 1 John 1:8-10. Practice of sin is to set up shop to sin (1 John) it is the lifestyle of the person, and the topic needs needs further understanding and examination. 1 John 5:13 is written only to those who pass the tests of conversion throughout the epistle yet many are ruched to that verse, out of context, to assure them of salvation. It is not a proof text for believe-ism though that is how it is often misused. Telling a person they are guaranteed heaven at the moment they make a profession of faith is unfortunate, we do not know if that person is truly converted at all. Telling them "No matter what!" sends a signal to the unconverted and they will go on in sin and finally are found to be dogs or swine, not sheep; 2 Peter 2:22.

We should be aware that discipline from God is also evidence of conversion, and, that receiving no discipline shows the persons to be bastards, not sons. We should look at this as evidence as well, that is the sense of the warning and encouragement, unconverted or converted respectively.

There are plenty of professing believers who are not transformed, live and practice sin who are assured they are going to heaven when they die because at VBS or some other event they made a public profession of faith and it ended there.

Now, if a persons life is being transformed, there is now a love for God, for his Word, a repentant attitude toward sin, love of the brothers, transforming growth, obedience to Christ, cleansing from the guilt of sin, understanding and revelation of who Christ is &c then give all the glory to God for his salvation working in you! :)
The word believe is somewhat weak. The Amplified Classic gives multiple meanings of some original language words in order for the meaning to be made clearer.

John 3:16 AMPC Amplified Classic


16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

The vision I get is a toddler clinging to their fathers leg as he walks across a room.
 
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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Which one is out of context of justification:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
The faith of Christ defined using Scripture:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

compared to...

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The faith of Christ is the testimony of Jesus Christ. What testimony? His testimony of His obedience unto death, even the death of the cross. His obedience to God the Father.

I am justified, I live by the testimony of Jesus Christ. My personal faith testimony waivers. Christ's testimony never waivered!
 
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ruach

Guest
The faith of Christ defined using Scripture:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

compared to...

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The faith of Christ is the testimony of Jesus Christ. What testimony? His testimony of His obedience unto death, even the death of the cross. His obedience to God the Father.

I am justified, I live by the testimony of Jesus Christ. My personal faith testimony waivers. Christ's testimony never waivered!
OF is used only in the KJV and a 1or 2 other translations of the Bible. IN is the properly rendered word and not OF.

No need to derail this thread with defenses of using the KJV only.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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OF is used only in the KJV and a 1or 2 other translations of the Bible. IN is the properly rendered word and not OF.

No need to derail this thread with defenses of using the KJV only.
Satan does not want man to rely on the faith of Christ but their our own pathetic faith. My faith waivers. How about you? Are you trusting in your faith, your testimony or the testimony of Jesus Christ?

I choose the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
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ruach

Guest
Satan does not want man to rely on the faith of Christ but their our own pathetic faith. My faith waivers. How about you? Are you trusting in your faith, your testimony or the testimony of Jesus Christ?

I choose the testimony of Jesus Christ.
We could go on an on, but we are not.

Blessings, have a good day.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Can't you see that you are so fixated on what YOU do, (and others) on YOUR sin, (and others) that you are completely blinded to what JESUS does. And what has HE done, and continues to do? He has paid the price owed by your sin! So we are born again with the Holy Spirit who transforms us into the likeness of Jesus.

Those lists, both good and bad, in different Books, ARE DESCRIPTORS of who we are. Doing or not doing them doesn't make us anything, they merely describe the lost vs. the saved. Or the Children of God vs. the children of satan.

So of course there IS a difference between the believer and the unbeliever. THEY HAVE DIFFERENT FATHERS!

My Father has sent His Son to pay for my sin debt, and if I do the bad list, HE IS GOING TO DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO GET ME TO STOP AND DO THE GOOD LIST. He will leave the 99 sheep and come and get me. Why?
BECAUSE I'M HIS CHILD!

He will correct and discipline me, and sometimes that can be very painful,and depending on my response to that discipline, may include physical death, but He does it because He loves me. Why does He love me ? BECAUSE I'M HIS CHILD!

If I weren't His Child, he WOULDN'T discipline me, and would harden my heart so that I would care a less about eternal consequences of my behavior.

So please, take your eyes off of sin. Stop inspecting everyone's fruit, rely solely on JESUS, keeping your eyes fixed on Him, and I GUARANTEE the good list will follow!
Acknowledgement of sin is designed to push us to Christ, not push us to do self righteous work.

If Galatians 5:21 causes you all to look at self and what you can do to fix yourself that is on you. Don't change the truth in Galatians 5:21 just because some people who live in sin don't look to Christ and instead try to do right on their own.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Satan does not want man to rely on the faith of Christ but their our own pathetic faith. My faith waivers. How about you? Are you trusting in your faith, your testimony or the testimony of Jesus Christ?

I choose the testimony of Jesus Christ.
the kjv is not the testimony of Christ. it is a non-divine translation made in 1611 by a bunch of british scholars to a king who is rumored to be gay.

so there's that.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
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the kjv is not the testimony of Christ. it is a non-divine translation made in 1611 by a bunch of british scholars to a king who is rumored to be gay.

so there's that.
What? The testimony of Christ points towards the faith He had in His Father and became obedient unto death. Not one word about the KJV and you are bashing it. Wow!
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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Years ago my friends daughter wanted a Doll House for Christmas - another friend gave her one, unfortunately she spent 6 weeks after Christmas putting it together.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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What? The testimony of Christ points towards the faith He had in His Father and became obedient unto death. Not one word about the KJV and you are bashing it. Wow!
not bashing anything. anyone can choose to use the kjv, or a modern language translation. agreed?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
again, I think we have an interpretation issue...

Faith of christ

What does that mean.

1. I have christ’s faith (his faith is imputed to me)
2. My have my own faith, but my faith is aligned with the faith Christ had (ie, I learn to trust the father Like Jesus did)




 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
again, I think we have an interpretation issue...

Faith of christ

What does that mean.

1. I have christ’s faith (his faith is imputed to me)
2. My have my own faith, but my faith is aligned with the faith Christ had (ie, I learn to trust the father Like Jesus did)




Yes EG! Scripture says the faith of Christ is the testimony of Christ. The faith of Christ, His testimony, justifies the believer. Faith requires evidence. The evidence of Christ's faith...look no further than His testimony. Christ's faith is imputed to the one who believes the gospel.

Our individual faith is our testimony of an already justified life in Christ. We waiver in our faith. Some believers are weak in faith. Some are strong. Our individual faith cannot justify, only the faith of Christ.

The only work that counts is the cross of Jesus Christ!
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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John, I believe you have just revealed truth.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified withG4957 Christ:G5547 neverthelessG1161 I live;G2198 yet notG3765 I,G1473 butG1161 ChristG5547 livethG2198 inG1722 me:G1698 andG1161 the life whichG3739 I nowG3568 liveG2198 inG1722 the fleshG4561 I liveG2198 byG1722 the faithG4102 of(G3588) theG3588 SonG5207 of God,G2316 who lovedG25 me,G3165 andG2532 gaveG3860 himselfG1438 forG5228 me.G1700

We should always pursue truth ourselves, for we have an enemy who twists truth all the time.