Not By Works

[BillG]

Faith alone,not saved by works,when we confess Christ for that is all we can do for we have not received the Spirit yet.

When we receive the Spirit then faith without works is dead,and a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,for we are now spiritual doing works of love by the Spirit,and if we lack those works intentionally then our faith lacks.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Charity,love in action,is greater than faith,so lack in love,lack in faith.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Faith works by love,and it is not faith alone,it is love alone,and everything stems from love.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast(fleshy works trying to gain favor with God,for a person is justified by works,and not faith alone when they receive the Spirit).

We are saved by grace through faith,so if we lack in love,we lack in faith,we lack in grace.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains,but if he did not have love then he is nothing,for faith means nothing with out love,and this love is to love all people,even our enemies,which feed and clothe your enemies,and bless them,and pray for them,and help the poor and needy,and love is not arrogant,not selfish,and not unkind.

1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness(money,material things,their wants): from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

The love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy and God's kingdom is love,and they have erred from the faith.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James said that if a person does not have charity then their faith is dead.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

John said if they do not have charity the love of God does not dwell in them.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Love is the fulfilling of the law,and love thy neighbor as yourself,so you should want people to prosper as you do,and be fed and clothed such as yourself,and God said He wants equality among the saints,not blessing one more than another,and only blessing them with their needs,not their wants.

Lack in love,lack in faith,lack in grace,and the Bible warns against it so some do lack love.

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

It is obvious that some can lack love,and they have been saved for Jesus told them they were fallen,and to repent of their lack of works based on love.

We see many people that lack in love by their lifestyle thinking selfish,and not loving their neighbor thinking they are alright with God,but if they lack in love,then they lack in faith.

Faith without works is dead,and we are justified by works,and not faith alone,for love matters in our salvation for love is the fulfilling of the law,so to lack in those works of love not caring about the welfare of others,and being selfish,then our faith lacks.

No no.

We are justified by faith and that alone

Galatians 3:24-26
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Sons and Heirs
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:1-3
Chapter 5
Faith Triumphs in Trouble
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;



Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 3:27-28
Boasting Excluded
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:1-4
Chapter 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.


Works do not and will never ever justify a person.

Faith does that, a true genuine faith where someone


Romans 10:8-11
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

James knows that good deeds can result only from authentic faith that results in a commitment to God

And as a result of this true genuine faith then we will align to will of the Holy Spirit in us

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I could do all the works I felt necessary for salvation but if I have no faith then those works mean nothing and do not justify me. Many non believers I know hope that God (if there is a Good) will look at their works and hope he will let them into heaven.

 

[ruach]

No, no, no! BECAUSE you have God's grace. BECAUSE! You are not hearing what is being said.

Because you have God's grace and do righteous work as a result, it follows that if you have dead faith when Jesus comes back you show that you do not have God's grace by faith.

THAT is the message that will save people from hell. Not this PC garbage that is afraid to make people see what they are and what they are not.

I agree here.

Saving grace and manifold grace are not the same thing and it is in fact, manifold grace, which becomes the teacher and the empowering change agent in our life after conversion. Manifold grace gives gifts and propels us into the sending of our good works.

 

[Chester]

Salvation is the gift. We are saved by grace through faith, that salvation is a gift.

Right on: the Greek I think says that the whole thing is a gift: the salvation, the grace, and the faith all together as one gift package.

Not sure how someone would get "Christ's faith" here instead of it being our faith??

 

[ruach]

Right on: the Greek I think says that the whole thing is a gift: the salvation, the grace, and the faith all together as one gift package.

Not sure how someone would get "Christ's faith" here instead of it being our faith??

please refrain , the last time we challenged this with John146, it turned into 20 pages of:

I know I am! but what are you?

 

[Studyman]

I still can’t do the multiple quote thing, so I’m probably not going to hit every verse you posted. I’m just going to try and summarize my thoughts.

I really can’t see anywhere that they were actually breaking the Law as to how it was written, the Letter of the Law, or outward appearance, but they were breaking it through the inward man and the spirit in which it was intended.

I guess that murdering the Prophets God/Jesus sent to them, murdering Jesus and Stephen seemed to me like breaking God's Laws. And given that Jesus said they "Taught for doctrines", not the Commandments or Laws of God as many preach, but the Commandments of men. And given that Jesus actually said: "John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Other than defending Mainstream Teaching, I can't, for the life of me, understand your statement "I really can’t see anywhere that they were actually breaking the Law".

They took pride and felt justified in obeying it by the written words of it… not because they loved God or had respect unto his ways… it was just for show. They even added laws to it to ensure that they were keeping it, and in doing so they did add grievous burdens on others… which they enjoyed…because they did not have any love for others.

I mean no offence, but why are you working so hard to prove Jesus was not telling the truth when He declared that the Pharisees were teaching for doctrines the commandments of men? Where in the scriptures did Jesus or Paul or anyone ever even suggest that the Pharisees "They took pride and felt justified in obeying it by the written words of it"? I know you mean well, but think about this, where did that statement come from? God's Word? and if so, please show me because I have never seen it.

While it is true they depended on their version of the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins, and that they claimed to be following "the Law of Moses", Jesus clearly told us they were liars and that they were not following the Laws of Moses.

They didn’t understand the spiritual aspect of the Law, so yes, they did always resist the Holy Ghost and did always err…this doesn’t mean they weren’t keeping the Law as written, but they were using it for their own benefit and erring in their heart and in the spirit in which it was given.

Again, why didn't they know the Spiritual aspect of the Law, but Zechariahs and Elizabeth did. Here is what Jesus said.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Duet. 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

This is the same God/Jesus, right? This is the same promise from Duet. and from John, Right? Did Zechariahs believe in Jesus and keep His Words?

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

What was the difference between how the Bible describes Zechariahs and the other Pharisees?

They were all about keeping the Law, but they weren’t righteous because they did it for their own reasons not of God. They twisted it around to fit their own needs, yet they still kept it. They believed that you should not steal. So I’m sure they didn’t go around robbing folks openly so they kept that Law…well, so they thought…but when they were selling at the temple Jesus told them that they had made His Father’s house a den of thieves…By the written Law they weren’t breaking any commandments because they weren’t actually stealing from anyone…but by the Spirit and to God they were stealing because they were taking advantage of others.

It is against God's Laws to sell your wares on God's Holy Days. Do you believe Jesus whipped them for simply selling their goods? Or was it because they used His Holy Days, when people were coming in to the Feast, to make their profit?

John 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

In Matthew 5 Jesus is explaining this to them…When he goes into what the Law says and then adds the deeper or spiritual meaning behind it. In example, you shall not kill…but I say unto anyone that is angry at his brother without a cause he shall be in danger of the judgement, etc.

I don't mean to be argumentative, really I don't. But it is obvious all your knowledge about God's Word comes through the filter of the mainstream preaching of our time, as it was filtered through the mainstream preachers of Christ's time. Regarding Matt. 5, please read for yourself.

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So Jesus is speaking about the Pharisees here and then the very next thing he says:

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Who is He talking about here? Who is "them of old time". Is it not the Pharisees who had created their own religion?

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

When did Jesus first say this?

Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

The Pharisees had not only added to God's Laws in their creation, but they were also ignoring God's Laws in the created doctrine as well. As Jesus said.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

So the truth here is that the "deeper or Spiritual" meaning of the Law was actually given by Jesus, before He became a Man, in Leviticus. And if the Pharisees were interested in following the "Letter of the Law" they would have been following the parts of God's Instruction that included mercy and faith and just judgment. Had they been following the "Letter of the Law" they would have known God, and would have known Jesus.

So I think that is why Paul said according to the righteousness of the Law he was blameless. He was talking about the written Law. He followed it by the words of it, but not the spirit in which it was given. Just my thoughts on it…

God bless you…

I don't think this one sentence from Paul erases the Word's of Jesus, or that many other Word's of the Bible that teach the Pharisees were not trying to earn salvation by following God's Instructions. Paul was a Pharisee, and the Pharisees had created their own Laws.

John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Yet, the Law and the Prophets did not condemn Jesus did it? Did God condemn Jesus to death? So how can you say they were following God's Laws?

Bless your heart 1ofthem for engaging in this conversation. Jesus warned:

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Jesus will not lie to us. He says people will come in His name, preaching that Jesus is truly the Messiah, and will preach lies (Deceptions) about God's Word.

One such lie and I hope you can accept it, is that the Pharisees were trying to earn Salvation by following God's Instructions. This lie leads to a multitude of falsehoods regarding God's Word that is being taught to us by folks who come in Jesus name (Christians). I know how difficult this is to accept as it was for me over 20 years ago. But you take the time, rid your mind of the teaching to have been brought up in, and study for yourself. Jesus will expose this to you as He promised for anyone who is truly "Seeking" Him. You will find the same thing I and others have found regarding this pernicious falsehood that we have been taught since our childhood.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and heartfelt reply.

 

[stonesoffire]

I agree here.

Saving grace and manifold grace are not the same thing and it is in fact, manifold grace, which becomes the teacher and the empowering change agent in our life after conversion. Manifold grace gives gifts and propels us into the sending of our good works.

Are you calling saving grace unmerited, and manifold grace, empowerment of Holy Spirit? I've never heard anyone separate them, though OT only had unmerited.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

No no.

We are justified by faith and that alone

Galatians 3:24-26
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Sons and Heirs
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:1-3
Chapter 5
Faith Triumphs in Trouble
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;



Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 3:27-28
Boasting Excluded
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:1-4
Chapter 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.


Works do not and will never ever justify a person.

Faith does that, a true genuine faith where someone


Romans 10:8-11
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

James knows that good deeds can result only from authentic faith that results in a commitment to God

And as a result of this true genuine faith then we will align to will of the Holy Spirit in us

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I could do all the works I felt necessary for salvation but if I have no faith then those works mean nothing and do not justify me. Many non believers I know hope that God (if there is a Good) will look at their works and hope he will let them into heaven.

yup


well said

 

[BillG]

Are you calling saving grace unmerited, and manifold grace, empowerment of Holy Spirit? I've never heard anyone separate them, though OT only had unmerited.

I read it as saying grace is unmerited and manifold grace is sanctificationn as a result of the Holy Spirit working in us.

 

[stonesoffire]

Right on: the Greek I think says that the whole thing is a gift: the salvation, the grace, and the faith all together as one gift package.

Not sure how someone would get "Christ's faith" here instead of it being our faith??

It is true that all are gifts because all is found through Holy Spirit, the gift of God.

But, how I see what John is saying is that the faith of Jesus is like being in the womb. Being created into the image of Jesus within His faith that He will do it. When mature? We walk as the Sons we are.

 

[stonesoffire]

I read it as saying grace is unmerited and manifold grace is sanctificationn as a result of the Holy Spirit working in us.

That makes more sense to me. Thank you.

 

[kitty]

On the contrary, "faith alone" does not save, because faith alone does not exist, it is a dead faith, and you cannot be saved without having a true faith in God. Read the book of James . . .

Salvation is only by the grace of God working in a person's heart to produce a true deep faith in the death, and resurrection of His Son Jesus Christ.

I think James was talking about faith being made evident by the works of the saved person if we dont see the evidence (works) maybe that person isnt really saved

 

[Endoscopy]

Red herring is in a pup named scooby doo,stay on subject please lol!

Scooby-Doo is brown oh unenlightened one. LOL

 

[1ofthem]

I still can’t do the multiple quote thing, so I’m probably not going to hit every verse you posted. I’m just going to try and summarize my thoughts.



I guess that murdering the Prophets God/Jesus sent to them, murdering Jesus and Stephen seemed to me like breaking God's Laws. And given that Jesus said they "Taught for doctrines", not the Commandments or Laws of God as many preach, but the Commandments of men. And given that Jesus actually said: "John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Other than defending Mainstream Teaching, I can't, for the life of me, understand your statement "I really can’t see anywhere that they were actually breaking the Law".



I mean no offence, but why are you working so hard to prove Jesus was not telling the truth when He declared that the Pharisees were teaching for doctrines the commandments of men? Where in the scriptures did Jesus or Paul or anyone ever even suggest that the Pharisees "They took pride and felt justified in obeying it by the written words of it"? I know you mean well, but think about this, where did that statement come from? God's Word? and if so, please show me because I have never seen it.

While it is true they depended on their version of the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins, and that they claimed to be following "the Law of Moses", Jesus clearly told us they were liars and that they were not following the Laws of Moses.



Again, why didn't they know the Spiritual aspect of the Law, but Zechariahs and Elizabeth did. Here is what Jesus said.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Duet. 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

This is the same God/Jesus, right? This is the same promise from Duet. and from John, Right? Did Zechariahs believe in Jesus and keep His Words?

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

What was the difference between how the Bible describes Zechariahs and the other Pharisees?



It is against God's Laws to sell your wares on God's Holy Days. Do you believe Jesus whipped them for simply selling their goods? Or was it because they used His Holy Days, when people were coming in to the Feast, to make their profit?

John 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.



I don't mean to be argumentative, really I don't. But it is obvious all your knowledge about God's Word comes through the filter of the mainstream preaching of our time, as it was filtered through the mainstream preachers of Christ's time. Regarding Matt. 5, please read for yourself.

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So Jesus is speaking about the Pharisees here and then the very next thing he says:

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Who is He talking about here? Who is "them of old time". Is it not the Pharisees who had created their own religion?

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

When did Jesus first say this?

Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

The Pharisees had not only added to God's Laws in their creation, but they were also ignoring God's Laws in the created doctrine as well. As Jesus said.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

So the truth here is that the "deeper or Spiritual" meaning of the Law was actually given by Jesus, before He became a Man, in Leviticus. And if the Pharisees were interested in following the "Letter of the Law" they would have been following the parts of God's Instruction that included mercy and faith and just judgment. Had they been following the "Letter of the Law" they would have known God, and would have known Jesus.



I don't think this one sentence from Paul erases the Word's of Jesus, or that many other Word's of the Bible that teach the Pharisees were not trying to earn salvation by following God's Instructions. Paul was a Pharisee, and the Pharisees had created their own Laws.

John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Yet, the Law and the Prophets did not condemn Jesus did it? Did God condemn Jesus to death? So how can you say they were following God's Laws?

Bless your heart 1ofthem for engaging in this conversation. Jesus warned:

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Jesus will not lie to us. He says people will come in His name, preaching that Jesus is truly the Messiah, and will preach lies (Deceptions) about God's Word.

One such lie and I hope you can accept it, is that the Pharisees were trying to earn Salvation by following God's Instructions. This lie leads to a multitude of falsehoods regarding God's Word that is being taught to us by folks who come in Jesus name (Christians). I know how difficult this is to accept as it was for me over 20 years ago. But you take the time, rid your mind of the teaching to have been brought up in, and study for yourself. Jesus will expose this to you as He promised for anyone who is truly "Seeking" Him. You will find the same thing I and others have found regarding this pernicious falsehood that we have been taught since our childhood.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and heartfelt reply.

Thanks for your reply too...but I just don't think you are understand what I am saying here...

Yeah, they were hypocrites to God, but they did try to follow the "written" Law.

They didn't think they were doing anything wrong by murdering Steven...The Law included a death penalty for various crimes...Outwardly they probably thought they were upholding the Law...To them Stephen was committing idolatry and teaching against the Law of God. So to them they thought it was just to kill him...by the Law.

As for the rest of it, I'm not going against what Jesus said...because yes they did add to the Law like I've been saying all along...that's putting more on someone than needed...they not only followed the Law as written but added traditions of men...Just like some churches and people still do today...example the Bible says for a women not to wear anything pertaining to a man and you got some people trying to make sure that a woman can follow this by saying that a woman should wear a dress or skirt. Now that is not what the word of God says that is a tradition of man...but I'm sure people started doing it just trying to make sure that they were following what the Bible said...but now they judge any and all who don't dress exactly like them, act like them, talk like them...etc.


But really though, I can't seem to explain to you what I am saying...I do understand what you are saying. I just don't know how to get you to understand what I am saying.

I've enjoyed talking to you, but I guess we are just going to have to leave it where it's at for now...

God bless you.

 

[BillG]

I think James was talking about faith being made evident by the works of the saved person if we dont see the evidence (works) maybe that person isnt really saved

Yep and I love you saying

"Maybe that person isn't really saved"

The emphasis for me is MAYBE.

We cannot judge what is going on in a person's life, what's in their hearts. What is causing them to stumble and not grow in Jesus.
It seems easier for some to write them off because such people 'quantify works and a level of works'
Yet they never desire to come alongside, walk with them, disciple them and pray for them.

If the person had no interest to change and become like Jesus, then leave them to it.
If the person does then it's time to walk the walk with them.

 

[John146]

please refrain , the last time we challenged this with John146, it turned into 20 pages of:

I know I am! but what are you?

Using Scripture, define faith. Anyone.

 

[BillG]

Using Scripture, define faith. Anyone.

Hebrews 11:1
Chapter 11
By Faith We Understand
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

John 20:29


29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Basically it's too

Believe, commit, trust and intrust.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hebrews 11:1
Chapter 11
By Faith We Understand
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

John 20:29


29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Basically it's too

Believe, commit, trust and intrust.

In the hope of eternal life. Which God, Who can not lie, promised before time began.

I write these things so you may KNOW you HAVE ETERNAL LIFE (our hope) and by it continue to believe (trust, have faith, blessed assurance) in his name

 

[John146]

In the hope of eternal life. Which God, Who can not lie, promised before time began.

I write these things so you may KNOW you HAVE ETERNAL LIFE (our hope) and by it continue to believe (trust, have faith, blessed assurance) in his name

Is faith the same as believing? That's where I'm trying to understand. I'm not quite sure. Faith requires substance, evidence.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

4100. pisteuó ►
Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

believe

__________
faith
4102. pistis ►
Strong's Concordance
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

belief can be a synonym for faith

acts 16
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

20 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city,

21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.

22 And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them.

23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely:

24 Who, having received such a charge, thrust them into the inner prison, and made their feet fast in the stocks.

25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.

26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.

27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.