Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[notuptome]

I was an object of His wrath. I am no longer an object of His wrath. What I was, I am no more.

Yep by grace.

Eph 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;


For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[1ofthem]

First, what is that word? Is it just the words in the book we now call the Bible? It can't be that, because Hebrews was written before that book called the Bible was finished. So what is that word? John 1:1 word for Word? The Word? Jesus?

In which case faith and hearing come through Jesus, not pages in a book, or things that come out of our mouth on a good day.

Second, If isn't always a choice. I was my husband's decision maker when he was heavily sedated in the ICU. I was the one who gave approval for his procedures, operations, and everything else they wanted to do for him. And yet, here are the Ifs I kept hearing.

"If he survives," "If he makes it through the night, "If the white blood cell count goes down," "If his kidneys start working again," "If he makes it through the night," "If he stabilizes," "If an abscess from his teeth dislodges and travels to his heart," "If he can breathe when we take the ventilator out," "If he can breathes for more than an hour, two hours, six hours, 18 hours," and the Ifs kept coming.

There are Ifs with choice. There are more Ifs without choice. And, quite frankly, God is sovereign over all Ifs.

Someone Iffed God in the Bible. Satan. "If Job..." And sure enough, God granted his Ifs with one condition.

Third, Jesus did say who would and who wouldn't call upon the Lord in John 3:16-21. Cut down to the chase, none of us would unless the Father wroughts/carries out. We made our choice. Our choice was to hide in the darkness to keep our sins. That is everyone's choice, until the Father wroughts!

I do agree with you Jesus is the word...so yeah, sorry to all if I made it sound like just a bunch of words on paper...lol

I also agree that God is sovereign. He is God and there is none other and he does as he pleases. He is in control and he is the one that set this thing up like it is.

The scripture says, in Isaiah 46:9-10
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

The scripture also says, God wants all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and it is not his will that any should perish but that all will come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

Now we know that God could do that easily, so there has to be a reason that it won’t be done. That reason is because he gives us the choice to accept him or not. There in, comes the “IF” condition.

He gives us the choice. That is His plan and how he set it up. Who am I to question Him?

Now this is how I see it, and this is probably where we are going to disagree.


Just want to say I do like the discussion that is going on here, well what I've read so far...I'm a little busy today.

 

[1ofthem]

I've been busy today so I haven't had a chance to read all the posts on here...I'm going to try to get to all of it this evening and reply back...God bless you all and have a good day.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You aren't reading that right. It doesn't say faith is not of ourselves. That is referring to Salvation in the Greek grammar not to faith. This is how we are to read that passage:

God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.
Ephesians 2:8 GW
https://bible.com/bible/70/eph.2.8.GW

That is not how sentence construction works.
i don't construct a sentence, add something in parentheses, and then expect readers to understand that the words in parentheses refer back to earlier words than the last ones...in no language on earth is that sentence construction...

You were saved by Gods kindness, and that kindness of God is not of yourself), through faith. That would be the way to construct the sentence you are trying to make.

But who would think to themselves: I wonder if the kindness of God comes from me?
That would be so silly it would not happen.
BUT, it WOULD be possible to think the faith had come from you.

 

[Depleted]

I've got to get some work finished right now, but I will reread those scriptures you posted...However, the first verse that is coming to mind for me right now, is when Jesus said that if I be lifted up, I will draw all men to myself...but I am going to reread all of the scriptures you posted as soon as I get a chance...

Cool reference for that one.

Remember Moses and the gang in the wilderness at their first battle? As long as Moses held up his staff, the Israelites were winning. When his arms got sore, and the staff lowered, they started losing. His brother Aaron and another guy held his arms up to keep that staff in the air.

That staff is Jesus! (Well, symbolizes Jesus.)

(I just think that's cool.)

 

[Depleted]

Please look up 'anthropomorphic language'.

God does not change His mind. He does not repent, seeing He is not man. We are made in His image, yet He is nothing like us.

If God changed His mind, then He learned something that caused Him to change His mind. Then if He learned something, He is not omniscient. If He is not omniscient, He is not omnipotent. Then if He changes His mind, is not omniscient, is not omnipotent, then He is no longer God. Its a snowball effect. One little heresy(though open theism is not a little heresy) gives rise to many.

Errr, as someone who wrote a novel about living stuffed animals, I thought anthropomorphic meant attributing human qualities to...

Oooooo! Duh! Never mind. (Never thought of it as making something more than humans lowered down to our level.)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you confess from the heart 'Jesus is Lord', you are saved. If you don't, you are not. Its not that complicated. The hard part is truly showing lost folk their need of Him in all parts of their life.

Thats what discipleship is for. Teaching them they need God in all parts.

Thats not salvation though, salvation is knowing your eternity is in danger.

 

[Depleted]

How do you know that not everyone will hear the gospel? He can speak it to a man who lives where there ARE no bibles! He spoke the gospel to men in the OT. They saw it from afar but they welcomed it even though they wondered over what they heard.
If the gospel must be heard for a man to live, and He wishes for no man to perish, how do you believe that not every man will hear the gospel?

This is a deep matter and incomprehensible for men. We are being very excercised this morning!

The Bible isn't the Word of God. Jesus is the Logos!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The author of the OP is trying to divorce faith and the new birth from each other. Its not so in salvation. They both happen at the exact same time.

Thats not the question though.

What is the context. Are we born again because we had faith, or do we have faith because we are born again.


Faith is not something that happens in a second, it must be worked on and learned. As we learn about ourselves and God.

New birth happens in an instant, And is the result of justification (our sins are forgiven, so we are no longer dead because of sin)

that is the point, and why so many people can not fathom the calvanist view.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yeah, don't sound hard to me either....If thou confess with thy mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead you shall be saved.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word so I think the only thing you can do for lost folk is give them the word of God and then it's between them and God as to IF they will accept it or not.

Yes, this shows faith takes time, it is not something that happens in an instant.

 

[Depleted]

Oh I can't STOP this ridiculous laughing!
The next thing we will hear from lynn is that she is going to the middle east...after she takes a shower...

Might as well not shower. After all, stick me in a fish stomach for a few days and the first thing I want after I get out IS a shower. lol

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We have to do something first to be saved, believe first. We are not saved before we believe.
He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Acts 16:30*-‬31 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/act.16.30-31.NIV

It is the work of God we believe, You have to resolve what that means, We do not earn salvation by faith, that is the calvanist argument, that we are trying. To earn salvation by doing an act of faith.

 

[Depleted]

According to Calvinism Faith occurs AT Regeneration. You are wholly in error.

Actually, he has that right. We do think regeneration comes before faith.

However, if someone is watching salvation happening to someone else, a few things happen so fast it looks like it is simultaneous. If it was a camera shot judging which horse's nose crossed the line first, it would be tough to judge. Pixels would be needed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Very good point sister. But it still comes back to faith. We were not sick, or hurt, WE WERE DEAD! A dead man can do nothing but be dead UNTIL someone brings them to life.

I'm a little uncomfortable with the thinking that I did NOTHING, NOT EVEN MUSTER UP THE FAITH MYSELF, to believe. But this is likely a pride issue.

Since I believe God gives a measure of faith to every man, and since not every man acts on that faith, I think from our perspective we have a free will to act on that measure of faith. So I guess i differ a little with Calvinism there.

But even there, I would ask why do some hear and believe, and others don't? Jesus tells us that no man can come to the Father unless He draws them.

In these matters I think 1 Corinthians 13[SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

So I think we're ok if we read the next verse and apply to our lives!
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

We are dead spiritually, it does not mean we can do nothing, it just means we are separated from God (a dead body is separated from its soul, yet the soul still lives, in hades or in paradise)

Salvation is by faith, Faith comes by hearing, if a non believer can not be thought by the hs the truth of the gospel (conviction) then a non believer can never come to faith. And the HS going to convict the world of sin righteousness of judgment is pretty much a non factor is it not?

Faith is not doing, it is trusting, it comes from hearing because it comes by learning.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

That is not how sentence construction works.
i don't construct a sentence, add something in parentheses, and then expect readers to understand that the words in parentheses refer back to earlier words than the last ones...in no language on earth is that sentence construction...

You were saved by Gods kindness, and that kindness of God is not of yourself), through faith. That would be the way to construct the sentence you are trying to make.

But who would think to themselves: I wonder if the kindness of God comes from me?
That would be so silly it would not happen.
BUT, it WOULD be possible to think the faith had come from you.

But it doesn't say faith is the gift. You are adding that idea.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God knows the end from the beginning. I'm not going to add to the word of God.

God can not be surprised. God knew if Nineveh did not believe the message of destruction and in turn repent, He would destroy them. God also knew that if Nineveh did not repent, He would destroy them like He said.

God did not lie. God changed His mind. I'm not willing to add to Scripture to make it say something else.

God knew they would repent. They did not surprise him by them repenting.

God sending them the message is the cause of their repenting. If he did not send them the word of destruction if they did not repent. They never would have repented. (They still had to make a choice however)

But they did not surprise God.

God wanted isreal to repent also. (Jesus said it was his will they repent and he gathers them as a mother, but they were not willing)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its it not dependent on man's will, but God's mercy. That's my paraphrasing Romans 9:16.

Why are you divorcing faith from the new birth?

If faith comes first, and then the new birth happens afterwards, you have someone justified before being born again.

If the new birth happens prior to having faith, you have a born again lost person. No one is justified without faith.

That's why we say faith and the new event happen at the exact same time.

Its no different with the event you asked from Acts 16. When he had faith, he was saved, he was born again. Before he had faith, he was still lost. When he had faith, he was saved.

And what did Jesus says.

Who was shown Gods mercy?

the one who tried to earn it.

or the one who got on his knees and called out to God in faith?

God said the one who got on their knees went hom justified. They were justified by faith, the man got on his knees dead to god, he walked away totally forgiven and born again because he entrusted his eternity to God.

 

[Depleted]

I am absolutely correct. Calvinism has regeneration occur prior to faith in its order of salvation.

Yes, you are correct in that.

You are incorrect in assuming your partial-verse proves otherwise.

 

[Depleted]

You are missing Paul's point and mine. I never claimed anyone is righteous and Paul never claims that our faith is an evil act.

It's bad when I have to tell the original poster to read his own original post.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes, this shows faith takes time, it is not something that happens in an instant.

I don't agree with this exactly. Faith happens in an instant. The faith that saves us. But it is a small seed. It takes time for that small seed of faith to grow into the large tree Jesus promised us it would.