-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
From Got Questions:
Interestingly, we always answer the question in the OP in reference to our time frame (after Day of Pentecost and the initial outpouring of Holy Spirit).
What about OT believers who were approved of God and attained to life everlasting? These men and women were not "born again" in the same sense that we, in our day and time, are born again. And yet, they had faith. But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarded of them that diligently seek Him (Heb 11:6). The same faith by which these elders obtained a good report is the same faith by which we, in our day and time, are born again.
Hebrews 11:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise
In Heb 11:2, we are told that by faith the elders obtained a good report.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The same grace, faith, gift of God that works in our day and time is the same grace, faith, gift of God in play at the time Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Interestingly, we always answer the question in the OP in reference to our time frame (after Day of Pentecost and the initial outpouring of Holy Spirit).
What about OT believers who were approved of God and attained to life everlasting? These men and women were not "born again" in the same sense that we, in our day and time, are born again. And yet, they had faith. But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarded of them that diligently seek Him (Heb 11:6). The same faith by which these elders obtained a good report is the same faith by which we, in our day and time, are born again.
Hebrews 11:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise
In Heb 11:2, we are told that by faith the elders obtained a good report.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The same grace, faith, gift of God that works in our day and time is the same grace, faith, gift of God in play at the time Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Being spiritually dead does mean separation from God. But I don't think we quite understand the magnitude of this. Its kind of too easy to just say and leave it at that.
When we think about the Lord Jesus telling us that we can do nothing without Him then we know we have no hope on our own.
No hope. That is the essence of separation from God. The pit of despair.
There is no way out of this pit on our own. We don't have the ability to get out. We have to appeal to the One who DOES have the ability to get us out.
I almost can't even speak of this without talking about the Lord Jesus Christ. It doesn't seem 'right'.
All this theology just seems like a proof for the bible. Without the first step of coming to Christ you can't really fathom it. With the first step of coming to Christ accomplished there is really no need to continue to explain it. The person is born again with eyes wide open.
When we think about the Lord Jesus telling us that we can do nothing without Him then we know we have no hope on our own.
No hope. That is the essence of separation from God. The pit of despair.
There is no way out of this pit on our own. We don't have the ability to get out. We have to appeal to the One who DOES have the ability to get us out.
I almost can't even speak of this without talking about the Lord Jesus Christ. It doesn't seem 'right'.
All this theology just seems like a proof for the bible. Without the first step of coming to Christ you can't really fathom it. With the first step of coming to Christ accomplished there is really no need to continue to explain it. The person is born again with eyes wide open.
D
Ha! Also not what I expected.
If a person is dead-dead what does that mean? No brain function. No organs functioning. No anything functioning. Unable to recover, ever.
Why is spiritually dead different? The spirit in us does not exist. It died so long ago, we can't even remember the death. It's like being born without a hand. People born without a hand, have no muscle memory for that hand, because they never had it. They don't have phantom pain for that hand, because they never had the hand. And, they tend to learn how to function without a hand before anyone bother teachs them how to function without the hand.
No hand, so live without the hand. No spirit, so live without a spirit. Not work either as if it is still alive. It's not alive. It didn't exist.
I grew up Catholic, so I grew up in religion. I felt guilt as only someone raised Irish and Catholic can. I was guilty for my brother breaking his knee a mile away, because I should have done something to stop him from breaking his knee. I was just as guilty for stealing that candy bar from the grocery store, because I should know I shouldn't still.
In both cases, there was no spirit in me to tell me why I should really feel guilty. Or what I should feel guilty about. OR, most important, what to do with the guilt. Nada. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. No connection between me and the Holy Spirit, because my spirit was dead.
And so, according to tradition, I went to a priest every 3-4 weeks to confess my sins and do penance. And I felt guilty. And I thought saying three Our Fathers, six Hail Marys, and three Glory bes, fixed the guilt. Why?
Because NO spirit in me to tell me that wasn't it. Spirit was dead. Did NOT connect the dots!
And then something weird happened. Someone regenerated me. Regenerated my spirit. Well, honestly? That's part of this. I really don't know if he regenerated my dead spirit, or he simply put his Spirit in me and that's what I'm working with. Is it like a Jarvis heart? Not my heart, but it keeps me alive until a heart comes along, so it is my heart.
Is the Holy Spirit our spirit now, and forever, or do we get our own spirit?
Because my old spirit? Never did remember it. It was dead before my memories. And walking in this spirit is different from that good Irish Catholic girl I used to be. Sometimes I feel phantom pains for something I never had. Sometimes I try to use an old spirit that was dead before I can remember.
If we don't get "spiritually dead," then how do we get "alive in Christ?"
If a person is dead-dead what does that mean? No brain function. No organs functioning. No anything functioning. Unable to recover, ever.
Why is spiritually dead different? The spirit in us does not exist. It died so long ago, we can't even remember the death. It's like being born without a hand. People born without a hand, have no muscle memory for that hand, because they never had it. They don't have phantom pain for that hand, because they never had the hand. And, they tend to learn how to function without a hand before anyone bother teachs them how to function without the hand.
No hand, so live without the hand. No spirit, so live without a spirit. Not work either as if it is still alive. It's not alive. It didn't exist.
I grew up Catholic, so I grew up in religion. I felt guilt as only someone raised Irish and Catholic can. I was guilty for my brother breaking his knee a mile away, because I should have done something to stop him from breaking his knee. I was just as guilty for stealing that candy bar from the grocery store, because I should know I shouldn't still.
In both cases, there was no spirit in me to tell me why I should really feel guilty. Or what I should feel guilty about. OR, most important, what to do with the guilt. Nada. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. No connection between me and the Holy Spirit, because my spirit was dead.
And so, according to tradition, I went to a priest every 3-4 weeks to confess my sins and do penance. And I felt guilty. And I thought saying three Our Fathers, six Hail Marys, and three Glory bes, fixed the guilt. Why?
Because NO spirit in me to tell me that wasn't it. Spirit was dead. Did NOT connect the dots!
And then something weird happened. Someone regenerated me. Regenerated my spirit. Well, honestly? That's part of this. I really don't know if he regenerated my dead spirit, or he simply put his Spirit in me and that's what I'm working with. Is it like a Jarvis heart? Not my heart, but it keeps me alive until a heart comes along, so it is my heart.
Is the Holy Spirit our spirit now, and forever, or do we get our own spirit?
Because my old spirit? Never did remember it. It was dead before my memories. And walking in this spirit is different from that good Irish Catholic girl I used to be. Sometimes I feel phantom pains for something I never had. Sometimes I try to use an old spirit that was dead before I can remember.
If we don't get "spiritually dead," then how do we get "alive in Christ?"
D
Reason to root for the Pats:
1. I love seeing records that blow away previous records. The Pats have already done that. They have more Super Bowl wins than any other team ever! It's like watching Phelps at the Olympics. I remember Spitz getting five golds. Couldn't imagine being alive when someone beat that, and yet, then there is Phelps. He made Spitz a footnote in history. He up the game so much it's a whole new game. And the Pats have already done that, but I'd like to see them win even more.
Just not THIS one. lol
1. I love seeing records that blow away previous records. The Pats have already done that. They have more Super Bowl wins than any other team ever! It's like watching Phelps at the Olympics. I remember Spitz getting five golds. Couldn't imagine being alive when someone beat that, and yet, then there is Phelps. He made Spitz a footnote in history. He up the game so much it's a whole new game. And the Pats have already done that, but I'd like to see them win even more.
Just not THIS one. lol
E
Spiritual death is a separation.
Physical death is separation of the soul from the body. At the end, the spirit will be given a new body, for the believer a body from of sin, for the non believer, a body which will suffer in hell
Spiritual death is separation from God. The separation is like a barrier placed between God and man, the barrier must be broken for the relationship to be restored.
Being born again is to have this barrier removed. The barrier of course is sin, to be more precise, the penalty of sin, which is death,. This this spiritual barrier can not be removed until that penalty is fulfilled (this is called justification vis redemption) and once that barrier is removed, A persons relationship with god is restored.
Physical death is separation of the soul from the body. At the end, the spirit will be given a new body, for the believer a body from of sin, for the non believer, a body which will suffer in hell
Spiritual death is separation from God. The separation is like a barrier placed between God and man, the barrier must be broken for the relationship to be restored.
Being born again is to have this barrier removed. The barrier of course is sin, to be more precise, the penalty of sin, which is death,. This this spiritual barrier can not be removed until that penalty is fulfilled (this is called justification vis redemption) and once that barrier is removed, A persons relationship with god is restored.
Here are some words from Jesus on the subject:
John 8:
39 Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
And in Romans 1, we read about those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. When the truth is revealed to them, they restrain the truth. From there, downward spiral as they step further and further away from God. And there are several steps. God holds them for a certain time, but eventually He has to let them go.
The process starts with suppressing the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) which results in not glorifying God, being unthankful, empty imaginings, foolish heart being darkened (Rom 1:21).
After a while, God gives them up to uncleanness (Rom 1:24).
After a while, God gives them up to vile affections (Rom 1:26).
After a while, God gives them over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:28).
The process starts and ends with people rejecting God and God having to let go bit by bit until they become just as Rom 1:28-32 describes.
For those who turn to God and who do not restrain the truth in unrighteousness, God works in their lives to bring them closer and closer to Him. And one day, God is going to finish the work in His people. And then they shall know even as also they are known (1 Cor 13:12) ... then they shall be like Him (the Lord Jesus Christ) for they shall see Him as He is (1 John 3:2).
John 8:
39 Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
And in Romans 1, we read about those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. When the truth is revealed to them, they restrain the truth. From there, downward spiral as they step further and further away from God. And there are several steps. God holds them for a certain time, but eventually He has to let them go.
The process starts with suppressing the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) which results in not glorifying God, being unthankful, empty imaginings, foolish heart being darkened (Rom 1:21).
After a while, God gives them up to uncleanness (Rom 1:24).
After a while, God gives them up to vile affections (Rom 1:26).
After a while, God gives them over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:28).
The process starts and ends with people rejecting God and God having to let go bit by bit until they become just as Rom 1:28-32 describes.
For those who turn to God and who do not restrain the truth in unrighteousness, God works in their lives to bring them closer and closer to Him. And one day, God is going to finish the work in His people. And then they shall know even as also they are known (1 Cor 13:12) ... then they shall be like Him (the Lord Jesus Christ) for they shall see Him as He is (1 John 3:2).
Are these not the words the LORD proclaimed through the earlier prophets when Jerusalem and its surrounding towns were at rest and prosperous, and the Negev and the western foothills were settled?'"
And the word of the LORD came again to Zechariah:
"This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another.
Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other.'
"But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and stopped up their ears.
They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the LORD Almighty was very angry.
"'When I called, they did not listen; so when they called, I would not listen,' says the LORD Almighty.
Zech 7:7-13
You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
Matthew 23:24-26
Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you."
Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.
Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."
Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?"
Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
John 9:37-41
And the word of the LORD came again to Zechariah:
"This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another.
Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other.'
"But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and stopped up their ears.
They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the LORD Almighty was very angry.
"'When I called, they did not listen; so when they called, I would not listen,' says the LORD Almighty.
Zech 7:7-13
You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
Matthew 23:24-26
Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you."
Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.
Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."
Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?"
Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
John 9:37-41
D
(Sneaky, sneaky. I copy-pasted GotQuestions so we can see what they said.)
I'm the one who has the audacity to disagree with some of what Got says. In the first couple of paragraphs they made it sound like death wasn't death, it was dying. Sort of like Adam got cancer, was told it would kill him, but if he stopped smoking and drinking alcohol it would take longer to die. Instead he drank and smoked. So, he chose to die in quicker amount of time.
Not buying it. I really do think it separated us from God. But death is death, not merely dying. Something was killed there. I think we all agree it's called "spirit." (I could be wrong. I also thought we'd all agree on what spiritual death meant in the first place. lol)
What died? Did it die for all of us? And, if it died, how is it some got it again? Or did anyone get it again? (That last part was after I started wondering if the spirit in me is really me or really the Holy Spirit in me.)
I do agree with you that regeneration happened in OT as well as NT though.
I'm the one who has the audacity to disagree with some of what Got says. In the first couple of paragraphs they made it sound like death wasn't death, it was dying. Sort of like Adam got cancer, was told it would kill him, but if he stopped smoking and drinking alcohol it would take longer to die. Instead he drank and smoked. So, he chose to die in quicker amount of time.
Not buying it. I really do think it separated us from God. But death is death, not merely dying. Something was killed there. I think we all agree it's called "spirit." (I could be wrong. I also thought we'd all agree on what spiritual death meant in the first place. lol)
What died? Did it die for all of us? And, if it died, how is it some got it again? Or did anyone get it again? (That last part was after I started wondering if the spirit in me is really me or really the Holy Spirit in me.)
I do agree with you that regeneration happened in OT as well as NT though.
D
Ha! (I keep thinking I'm going to agree with what the other reformers think, and keep getting surprised we aren't thinking the same either. lol)
Is spiritual death the pit of despair? I ask, because I had no despair before the effectual calling. I thought I was doing all I was supposed to do to earn the eternal vacation plan. (Heaven, where I get to do whatever I want eternally.)
Despair came when I woke up that morning suddenly realizing God wasn't just real, but someone I could never imagine in my entire life. AND, I had dishonored him, disrespected him, ignored him, set myself in his place, and utterly, completely, wholey sinned every which way against him who was sinless, loving, long-suffering, wonderful, perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, and, e-gads -- wrathful!
That's when my "Now what do I do" showed up.
When I was dead, there was no despair.
Is spiritual death the pit of despair? I ask, because I had no despair before the effectual calling. I thought I was doing all I was supposed to do to earn the eternal vacation plan. (Heaven, where I get to do whatever I want eternally.)
Despair came when I woke up that morning suddenly realizing God wasn't just real, but someone I could never imagine in my entire life. AND, I had dishonored him, disrespected him, ignored him, set myself in his place, and utterly, completely, wholey sinned every which way against him who was sinless, loving, long-suffering, wonderful, perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, and, e-gads -- wrathful!
That's when my "Now what do I do" showed up.
When I was dead, there was no despair.
