Has Jesus Christ returned?

[MatthewG]

If you believe that Jesus has already returned, then what is there left to take place?
People to learn about the Lord Jesus Christ, and the purpose which He came and did everything, that God loves them, and JEsus Christ does too. If they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and His shed blood, they are saved. To read the bible, and gain knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that the holy spirit will guide them through life. I believe the Word Of God is a blessing, and the Words our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ can change us inside, our heart.

What are you expecting to happen next?
The world to keep going on forever, and that many people will come to knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, have faith and love God and Love other people.

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
His government and its peace will never end. He will rule with fairness and justice from the throne of his ancestor David for all eternity. The passionate commitment of the LORD of Heaven's Armies will make this happen!

This is talking about a government. The Government is a spiritual government, that resides in the hearts of the believers, that creates a peace inside of us by the holy spirit because we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and it is never ending so there is no end to those who will come to knowledge of the Truth of Jesus Christ here in this life.

Regarding the time of God's wrath, Jesus said, "if those days were not cut short, no one would be left alive." When has that situation ever existed on the earth?

Yes it did, the Apostles suffered, Great tribulations, and if they were not cut short, and the Lord JEsus Christ did not return, everyone would have died... Imagine living when Nero was living, and being under His rule... what a terrible outcome they also surely suffered.

Because since you believe that everything has already taken place, what are you going to do when the antichrist shows up?
It is over. I am not worried about this, there is no reason to because Jesus Christ has already came and placed his Victory over Satan/Anti-Christ/Beast/Demons/False prophet/Death... He has victory over every single one of these things. All of these things are beneath JEsus Christ feet.

Satan ... I'm so glad God has tooken care of Him already... (never tempted by satan anyway, always been tempted by my own thoughts) We can really be our worst enemy.

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I will give you the same sign as scripture does. When you see a political leader establish a seven year agreement with Israel allowing her to build her temple on the temple mount, then know that this person is the antichrist and that you have entered into the time of God's wrath.

Never receive anything under or on the skin of your hand that will allow you to make purchases, this is the mark of the beast.

*Noted but I believe all of this is over with, because back in Neros day they were given a slip like thing that pledge alliegance to Him, and if you did not have this slip you could not buy/sell/or trade. In this age back then in the AD's. I place this there with them because it was something that they were going to see and take notice off because the Revelation was written to the 7 churchs in Asia minor to see things come to play about.


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After the time of the seven year covenant you will begin to see the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments taking place in sequential order. After the seventh bowl has been poured out, then Jesus will return to the earth to end the age.

You're talking about when the Angels in heaven held by the wind's for a moment, because there was needed to be a time of peace, so they were held back for a moment, and peace was made then for 7 years. (Then it gets into the 3 1/2 year rule of the beast right?)

For the gathering of other believers? The Tribes of Isreal? the 144,000?

We finally got some where, brother. Thank you God finally, some questions into what I'm thinking.

If Nero was the antichrist and it was his mark, all I'd have to do is move somewhere else and I wouldn't be exposed to Nero and Rome's rules. The mark that is coming will affect every person on the planet. Since everything will be purchased electronically and the mark will eventually be the only way to credit and debit your bank account, then whoever refuses it will not be able to buy or sell.
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I would say yes, that is all you would have to do. You are correct.

The thing is, when Jesus Christ told His disciples, to go preach to all the nations, that would mean the nations surrounding Isreal, one which was Rome, and a letter was written to them. So when I see nations in the bible I look at the past. (there was no usa, canada, mexico, icelan, sweden) to me. All the nations then where all the nations right there in the bible nothing more nothing less.

Now, here is my question if you were living in Isreal at the time, and you had this huge roman empire surrounding you, and there was a Man placing rule around, that if you don't follow Him you will not get to buy/sell/trade, either way, because you would just be murdered, if you chose to instead to follow the Lord Jesus Christ, (because you were warned about these events prior to them happening but what did the Apostles tell you to do stand firm in faith, and wait for the return of Jesus Christ He was coming back for those who stayed in the faith the church at the time He was coming back to get you) Where could you really run to? Flee to the mountains like those in Judea?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I would say yes, that is all you would have to do. You are correct.

The thing is, when Jesus Christ told His disciples, to go preach to all the nations, that would mean the nations surrounding Isreal, one which was Rome, and a letter was written to them. So when I see nations in the bible I look at the past. (there was no usa, canada, mexico, icelan, sweden) to me. All the nations then where all the nations right there in the bible nothing more nothing less.

Now, here is my question if you were living in Isreal at the time, and you had this huge roman empire surrounding you, and there was a Man placing rule around, that if you don't follow Him you will not get to buy/sell/trade, either way, because you would just be murdered, if you chose to instead to follow the Lord Jesus Christ, (because you were warned about these events prior to them happening but what did the Apostles tell you to do stand firm in faith, and wait for the return of Jesus Christ He was coming back for those who stayed in the faith the church at the time He was coming back to get you) Where could you really run to? Flee to the mountains like those in Judea?

Stop thinking one dimensional! The end times will affect the entire earth, not just the area of Israel and Judea. You have to understand that God knows that the earth contains more that just that area of Israel. For example, at the sounding of the 4th trumpet, God causes the sun to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat. Does the sun only shine on Israel and Judea, or the entire planet.

When the 6th trumpet is sounded, a third of the earth's population is killed by those four evil angels and their army 200 million. A third of what Israel covers would not even equal a third and not even five percent, if that!

At the sounding of the 1st trumpet a third of the trees and a third of the earth is burned up. Again, Israel's land mass wouldn't even come close.

Then when you get to the 2nd and 3rd bowls, all of the fresh water and oceans are turned to literal blood. That surely is speaking about the entire earth and not just Israel.

The point is that, these events of wrath are going to affect all nations on the entire earth.

Where could you really run to? Flee to the mountains like those in Judea?

No, I wouldn't have to flee anywhere, because along with the rest of the church, I'm not going to be here when God's wrath begins. The church is no where mentioned throughout the narrative of God's wrath. Not once! But the word church is used 18 times within chapters 1 thru 3 and then it abruptly disappears from chapter 4 onward.

You still have the problem of proof of the events that must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth. That is your Achilles heel, no proof to support your claim.

 

[wolfwint]

Just gave you Ad 70.

I'm gonna ask RoboOp to remove this thread, maybe He will listen It will give me enough time to gather information that I have already given plus a bit more possibly.


I dont have to prove anything, the scripture itself proves it. Like I explained to you about this my dear friend who ignores me too.

Revelation 13:18 Here is a call for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and that number is six hundred sixty-six.

This is talking of ONE MAN, One not 100 different men, just one Man.

The number that relates to this man, who is the Beast, is the Nero Ceasur Ruler at the time. (Persecution was at all time high) because the end was near.

There information that is out there if you are intrested in looking deeper, that even explains what Nero was like, he was even called a beast. He slaughtered a lot of Christians... back in the early ages of the AD, He was the one to come up and set the mark of the beast.

He had statues of Himself placed every where (Hey look at that) That is almost saying that He is God because He was every where in statue form, and greeks looked at statues that way, that the soul would reside in the statues that were made. Kind of just like an idol.

He had christians play in the arena for His own pleasure watching them be killed.

He loved it loved it, until one day He killed Himself. Marking the end of HIs reign, then later, Romans came in and destoried Jersulem, ending the Age that once was that in Jersulem, and then in 400 Ad the ruler switched to Christianity in the Roman area. How amazing.

Sorry to say, but if you claim that Jesus has already came i would call you a false teache. You ignore the scripture and the reality for to proclaim your view. You never gave an answer to the questions. We got the Holy Spirit for to know the truth. And the truth is that Jesus has not returned visible till yet. Every other teaching is a lie.

 

[beta]

Sorry to say, but if you claim that Jesus has already came i would call you a false teache. You ignore the scripture and the reality for to proclaim your view. You never gave an answer to the questions. We got the Holy Spirit for to know the truth. And the truth is that Jesus has not returned visible till yet. Every other teaching is a lie.

I guess 'Christ IN you, the hope of glory' is just a lie and counts for nothing.

We know and agree He has not yet returned 'visibly.

 

[Johnny_B]

Yes Our eternal home will be in the New Jerusalem and we shall inherit the earth as Jesus said.. It will be a new earth a perfect one.. And i agree we shall be raptured up into the air to meet Jesus as he is comming back to earth.. We will be coming right back down with Him to rule the Earth for 1000 Years..

what does scripture mean in hebrews when it talks about coming to mount zion, heavenly jeruslem does that mean the coming jeruslem is actull from heaven its in hebrews 12 or 13 i forgot


time to go back to work God bless

Amstar, here Jesus says, He will keep those that have kept His word from the hour of trail that will come upon the world, to try those that dwell on the earth, in verse 10. If Jesus takes us out by rapture that would mean that we would be going up before the trail that comes upon the whole world, to try those that are on the earth. Revelation 13:10 seems to support the pre-trib rapture doctrine, if He takes those out of the hour of trail which will come upon the whole world and all those that dwell on the earth by rapture.

MatthewG, verse 12 tells us that the New Jerusalem does come down from God out of heaven.

Revelation 13:10-12 “10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.11 I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.”

 

[Ahwatukee]

Amstar, here Jesus says, He will keep those that have kept His word from the hour of trail that will come upon the world, to try those that dwell on the earth, in verse 10. If Jesus takes us out by rapture that would mean that we would be going up before the trail that comes upon the whole world, to try those that are on the earth. Revelation 13:10 seems to support the pre-trib rapture doctrine, if He takes those out of the hour of trail which will come upon the whole world and all those that dwell on the earth by rapture.

MatthewG, verse 12 tells us that the New Jerusalem does come down from God out of heaven.

Revelation 13:10-12 “10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.11 I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.”

Hey Johnny_B,

I totally agree. Just FYI, I'm sure that it is just a type-O, but the scripture is Rev.3:10

 

[MatthewG]

Sorry to say, but if you claim that Jesus has already came i would call you a false teache. You ignore the scripture and the reality for to proclaim your view. You never gave an answer to the questions. We got the Holy Spirit for to know the truth. And the truth is that Jesus has not returned visible till yet. Every other teaching is a lie.


Okay Wolfwint you are still my brother in Christ regardless

Sister Beta, I guess 'Christ IN you, the hope of glory' is just a lie and counts for nothing.
We know and agree He has not yet returned 'visibly. How amazing! Thank you for that sharing.

Brother Johnny_b - my friend I have a question regarding this; in hebrews 12.
hebrews 12: 22 But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,
23 to the company and assembly of the first-born in heaven enrolled, and to God the judge of all, and to spirits of righteous men made perfect,
24 and to a mediator of a new covenant -- Jesus, and to blood of sprinkling, speaking better things than that of Abel!



Why is this Jerusalem a heavenly one?

Brother Ahwatukee - Well, the proof is talked about the nation of isreal, and the destruction of Jerusalem temples, sacrifices, the end of the age called that all the old covenant ways, of doing things, geneologies. I mean all of this stuff isn't even around anymore really. ( Remember the matthew 24 section )


The proof is the bible itself, where it talks about a number of a man, with 666. (You think when they got the letter they would have found the one there with them that had wisdom to understand who this person was right?)


When earth is talked about it normally means the inhabitants at the time. See that is why I made this point right here,
The thing is, when Jesus Christ told His disciples, to go preach to all the nations, that would mean the nations surrounding Isreal, one which was Rome, and a letter was written to them. So when I see nations in the bible I look at the past. (there was no usa, canada, mexico, icelan, sweden) to me. All the nations then where all the nations right there in the bible nothing more nothing less.




The point is that, these events of wrath are going to affect all nations on the entire earth.
You are thinking this a world wide event based on your view of scripture were mine is different, and for a certain Age which can mess everything up.


No, I wouldn't have to flee anywhere, because along with the rest of the church, I'm not going to be here when God's wrath begins. The church is no where mentioned throughout the narrative of God's wrath. Not once! But the word church is used 18 times within chapters 1 thru 3 and then it abruptly disappears from chapter 4 onward.


Fair enough, but just because 1 through 3 and the church dissappers does not exclude the 7 churches that recieved everything that was written in revelation they didn't just get chapter 1 - 3 and it stopped for those churches, infact they had the whole thing. If you read a book or a Letter You start with Chapter 1 to see what is talking about and you go through till end to see what happens through it all, but you remember what was told you in the start.


Rev 1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John,2 who did testify the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, as many things also as he did see.3 Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it -- for the time is nigh-(the time is near! What time? The coming of the Lord)! 4 John to the seven assemblies that [are] in Asia: Grace to you, and peace, from Him who is, and who was, and who is coming, and from the Seven Spirits that are before His throne,6 and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him [is] the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen. 7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall-(soon) every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!


Would near for them mean 2000 years? Or would near for them, be really soon? Would have been only the 7 churches that were written to only have this Letter but only send out chapters 1 - 3? (Real questions here though regardless of how you view things)

Hey I just thought about this too, since it doesn't talk about the churches after 1 - 3 (Did they get taken out?) I mean when you think about it the 7 churches back then aren't even here anymore...





All I am really doing here is just challenging you to look, and see these things I have came to notice, but if you can't notice that is okay, and we still friends, and love each other regardless.

Because I am thankful, don't get me wrong for every single person who has chimed in on this. God bless every one of you and your Families.

Thank you for being so patient with a person like myself.

 

[wolfwint]

I guess 'Christ IN you, the hope of glory' is just a lie and counts for nothing.

We know and agree He has not yet returned 'visibly.

I know what you mean. We are saying when we turn to Christ, we take Jesus in our life. Yes, its right Jesus lives in the believer. But I understand thst he is doing this through the Holy Spirit. Otherwise we must say that Jesus lives in us seperate from the Holy Spirit.
The OP theme speaks from the question has Jesus Christ returned? And MatthewG statet that he has. But gave no answer to my questions.
Do you think Jesus Christ has returned invisible?

 

[MatthewG]

I know what you mean. We are saying when we turn to Christ, we take Jesus in our life. Yes, its right Jesus lives in the believer. But I understand thst he is doing this through the Holy Spirit. Otherwise we must say that Jesus lives in us seperate from the Holy Spirit.
The OP theme speaks from the question has Jesus Christ returned? And MatthewG statet that he has. But gave no answer to my questions.
Do you think Jesus Christ has returned invisible?

I believe it was a spiritual return. Not a psychical return, but the psychical part like, great tribulations, famines, plagues there were laid out, temple in Jerusalem, and the ending of all the material religion in that day, sacrifices, geneologies, preist hoods, ordinations, everything was wiped away when Jerusalem was destroyed, in AD 70.

And Because Jesus Christ said that the temple would be destroyed, I believe He was able to do it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Brother Ahwatukee - Well, the proof is talked about the nation of isreal, and the destruction of Jerusalem temples, sacrifices, the end of the age called that all the old covenant ways, of doing things, geneologies. I mean all of this stuff isn't even around anymore really. ( Remember the matthew 24 section )

Hello MatthewG,

The definition of the end of the, according to scripture, is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. The meaning of the end of the age, is the end of mankind's rule on this earth and the establishment of His kingdom. As I have shared with you many times, the Lord's return to end the age is marked by many signs, earth changing signs. That time leading up to the Lord's return will be the worst time in the history of the earth. Therefore, Jesus return to end the age will not just affect Isael, but the entire world.

When Jesus returns, one of the events that will take place is the following:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore." Isa.2:4

Therefore, according the scripture, when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, nation shall not take up sword against nation nor will they train for war anymore, which is speaking of the beginning of the millennial period. Therefore, if Jesus had already returned to the earth there would be no more wars and no more training for war. This is just another sign of Jesus return. Below is another:

"On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south."

The event above also must take place when the Lord returns to end the age, which also has not taken place, otherwise the Mount of Olives would now be split in two, which it is not.

What I am demonstrating to you above is proper exegesis, which is necessary to form a right conclusion. These are just some of the events that must take place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, which have not taken place, ergo, Jesus has not yet returned.

The proof is the bible itself, where it talks about a number of a man, with 666. (You think when they got the letter they would have found the one there with them that had wisdom to understand who this person was right?)

They could try, but until all of the information regarding the antichrist/beast was present, they could not know who he was. No one will know who he is until he establishes that seven year agreement with Israel. That is what will revealed him. If we are already seeing Sweden, her sister countries and our own country beginning to implant people with subdermal chips and those the purpose of making purchases, then we are seeing the stage being set for that beast and his mark. I guarantee you that it was not Nero, nor Hitler, nor Stalin, or Reagan, Obama or Trump. Until someone comes and fulfills the seven year agreement, everyone else is just a guess.

When earth is talked about it normally means the inhabitants at the time. See that is why I made this point right here,
The thing is, when Jesus Christ told His disciples, to go preach to all the nations, that would mean the nations surrounding Isreal, one which was Rome, and a letter was written to them. So when I see nations in the bible I look at the past. (there was no usa, canada, mexico, icelan, sweden) to me. All the nations then where all the nations right there in the bible nothing more nothing less.

Regarding the above, you still did not answer my question in regards to the events of God's wrath. This is typical with preterists. I pointed out to you that at the sounding of the 1st trumpet, a third of the earth and trees are burnt up. Israel's entire land mass wouldn't cover a third of the earth! At the 4th bowl judgment God causes the sun to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat. Does the sun shine only on Israel or the entire earth? Please stop using that known apologetic that the reference to the world only includes the area of Israel. When God says "the whole world" that's what he means, especially when he is speaking about end-times.

Rev 1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly;

And yet none of those things that are to take place have taken place. So you force fulfillment of them without any actual fulfillment. Regarding this, I have already demonstrated how both Isaiah and Joel spoke of the day of the Lord as being near and coming soon. 900 hundred years later, Paul is speaking about same event of the day of the Lord as still being future. If it was near during Isaiah's and Joel's time, then neither Paul or any of the other apostles should be referring to the day of the Lord because it should have already taken place. But the fact that Paul still refers to it as future demonstrates that the day of the Lord had not yet taken place. Neither do we have any fulfillment as of this posting.

What I see in you is someone who has been brainwashed and is just repeating preterist apologetics.

Would near for them mean 2000 years? Or would near for them, be really soon? Would have been only the 7 churches that were written to only have this Letter but only send out chapters 1 - 3? (Real questions here though regardless of how you view things)

"It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority."

The next event that is going to take place will be the gathering of the church, which will be followed by the revealing of the antichrist and the wrath of God. When you see the church gone, then understand that you will have entered into that time period of God's wrath, then think back on the things that I have been sharing with you.

By the way, do you believe that the resurrection and catching away of the church has already taken place?

 

[MatthewG]

Regarding the above, you still did not answer my question in regards to the events of God's wrath. This is typical with preterists. I pointed out to you that at the sounding of the 1st trumpet, a third of the earth and trees are burnt up. Israel's entire land mass wouldn't cover a third of the earth! At the 4th bowl judgment God causes the sun to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat. Does the sun shine only on Israel or the entire earth? Please stop using that known apologetic that the reference to the world only includes the area of Israel. When God says "the whole world" that's what he means, especially when he is speaking about end-times.

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What does trumpets mean? What did they mean in the old testament? (Trumpets can signify the return of someone, trumpets can signify a war is about to be waged in real life,)


Does the sun shine only on Israel or the entire earth?


You are looking at earth a the whole earth, when it is really meaning the inhabitants of the land.


It's a problem for futurist because that all they go on, yet if they could see that all of these things were written to the nations that were around at that time, and come to the conculsion oh wait a minute, america isn't in the bible, it wasn't a nation at that time.


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Please stop using that known apologetic ??? I dont even care for apologetics...




I am just speaking out of my mind, thoughts, opinions, history and looking at scripture to mold them together.
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And yet none of those things that are to take place have taken place. So you force fulfillment of them without any actual fulfillment. Regarding this, I have already demonstrated how both Isaiah and Joel spoke of the day of the Lord as being near and coming soon. 900 hundred years later, Paul is speaking about same event of the day of the Lord as still being future. If it was near during Isaiah's and Joel's time, then neither Paul or any of the other apostles should be referring to the day of the Lord because it should have already taken place. But the fact that Paul still refers to it as future demonstrates that the day of the Lord had not yet taken place. Neither do we have any fulfillment as of this posting.
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If Isaiah and Joel spake about the day of the Lord as being near and coming soon, dont you think that that would be a reference to when Jesus Christ was going to be born instead of actual coming to bring judgement across the land of Isreal, who He came for. And not something 900 years down the road but when when in fact Jesus Christ or the Messiah would be coming soon. Basically.
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"It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority."


The next event that is going to take place will be the gathering of the church, which will be followed by the revealing of the antichrist and the wrath of God. When you see the church gone, then understand that you will have entered into that time period of God's wrath, then think back on the things that I have been sharing with you.


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I have already explained to you about the Beast, and Anti-Christ and how I see it (Also the things that the Apostles would see come about the last days). But this is your own view.


I do believe that the Church has done be raptured and tooken up, Jesus Christ saved those who were elect at the time, I believe.


So no one is elected now. We just come to the knowledge of the truth in the Lord Jesus Christ accept it or not.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I believe it was a spiritual return

How can you have a spiritual return, when Matt.24:30 states that all the peoples of the earth mourn when they [see] the Son of Man arriving on the clouds? In addition Rev.1:7 states that "every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen."

How can you claim that the Lord's return to the earth is spiritual when the above scripture support a visual physical return of Christ? The destruction of the temple has nothing to do with the very last day events. You claim that Jesus returned and that invisibly, but you have no fulfillment of any of the many events which must take place.

 

[MatthewG]

I don't even care to talk about it anymore regardless.
'It doesnt even matter, because your gonna look at your way, and I am gonna look at it my way.

I'm not God and I can only explain as much as I learned and I could be wrong about the spiritual part, maybe it was psychail.

I'm a falliable human being but I do still believe the Lord has come regardless.

And thank God all we need in our life is Jesus Christ to believe on Him and to Love others.


Im not copping out I just don't care about this any more really. Ill share this.

[video]https://youtu.be/kygaucBbiYE?t=366[/video]

 

[Johnny_B]

Hey Johnny_B,

I totally agree. Just FYI, I'm sure that it is just a type-O, but the scripture is Rev.3:10

​Yes it is chapter 3, thanks for the pull up my Brother.

 

[Ahwatukee]

What does trumpets mean? What did they mean in the old testament? (Trumpets can signify the return of someone, trumpets can signify a war is about to be waged in real life,)

It doesn't matter what trumpets meant in the OT. The meaning of these trumpets is contained right in the context. Each trumpet sets off the next plague of wrath. There is no need to look any further for what the those particular trumpets represent because it is stated right in the context. After the 1st trumpets sounds and event of wrath takes place. After the 2nd trumpet sounds the next event of wrath takes place, etc., etc. And it is the same for the seals and bowl judgments. Each one represents the next plague of wrath. There is no reason to look up what the word trumpet means.

You are looking at earth a the whole earth, when it is really meaning the inhabitants of the land.

You can't spiritualize your way out of the issue above. The sun does not just shine on Israel. Therefore, when the 4th bowl judgment takes place, everyone on the planet will feel the affects of the sun scorching them with intense heat. Same thing for the 4th trumpet when God darkens the sun, moon and stars by a third. The entire earth both day and night ,will be missing a third of its normal light. Israel is not the only place that will be affected.

I do believe that the Church has done be raptured and tooken up, Jesus Christ saved those who were elect at the time, I believe.

So, you're saying that the church has already been gathered? What about the majority of the church. The promise of being gathered is to the entire church, not just 35 years of it! Regarding this, please read the following scripture:

"Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

There were those during Paul's time who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, which he called godless chatter, that this teaching would spread like gangrene, and by this teaching Paul said they had departed form the truth. That said, anyone who is teaching the same today comes under the same departed state as Hymenaeus and Philetus.

You have to understand that, the promise to gather the church was/is to the whole church. When the Lord descends from heaven every person from the on-set of the church until the time the resurrection takes place, will be resurrected in their immortal and glorified body and will be caught up in the air. Then immediately after that, those in Christ still alive will be changed and caught up with them. At that time the entire church, dead and alive, will caught up to meet the Lord in the air, where the Lord will take the entire group back to the Father's house according to His promise in John 14:1-3.

Your claim that the resurrection has already taken place would put your state as being departed from the truth. This is serious stuff MatthewG.

The fact that the church is still here tells you that the resurrection has not yet taken place. Not only that, but if it had taken place as you say, then what about all of those in Christ who died after that supposed resurrection? They would still be in the ground and the living in Christ, such as myself and millions of others, would not be changed and caught up.

My advise to you, is to put down the belief of preterism and read the word of God in the literal sense until a symbolic interpretation is required. Because the big problem here is the spiritualizing and allegorizing of scripture that is meant to be received in the literal sense.

 

[Ahwatukee]

​Yes it is chapter 3, thanks for the pull up my Brother.

My pleasure!

 

[MatthewG]

I'm good brother, Ahwatukee

Thank you for all of your insights and views.

I dont even know how you really believe aside from your futuristic view. You could believe in calvinism or something else that I dont even know about. I know you love the last days just like I do, and have passion for it.


It's great I love you, and I admit, that I don't know everything. But I do believe the bible is true, and the things Jesus Christ said were true, and the disciple/Apostles, said where true, and I can only say that the Bible is has History (His story book) that is the Word of God, that explains everything from start to finish. ( I believe it is wrapped up greatly, and all in it has been completed)

A person believes how they feel (on certain subjects), because there are many different views out there, and not all of them have to co-relate to be understood as yours, or even mine really for that matter.


Seen a woman once in a discussion and she went through a lot in her life, and believed in Jesus Christ, also because of the way she experienced life she even believed in reincarnation, even though the bible doesn't talk about it. ( I wouldn't mind coming back here to this world if God would let me maybe Go see space He created ) I am not sure. My life could be much rougher though which is a kinda scary though to even think about.

Asked my friend Morris if you Go see God do you believe He would give you all your animals you had loved in your life back to you? He said yes.

You say the world is gonna end and Jesus Christ is gonna return, and this your hope. Great I'm glad my friend. Keep that hope, and I hope it does come true for you in your life as you are living. I want to watch it go down too maybe with you, but you might be raptured before I could meet you. I would be just stuck here...

And You know how John put right? Remember?

1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another just as He commanded us.

I believe this whole section about Has Jesus Christ Returned, has been talked about very much. I believe people have made great points, even some of the things I have presented as well because I am not the only one who believes like I do.



God bless. I do really love you, are a smart man, and you are valuable in life, like every one else my dear friend and God loves you.

With God all things are possible, but with man, it's impossible.

 

[prove-all]

Okay, but don't you think that even with the scriptures talking about the Lord Jesus Christ
coming is true, while Jesus Christ was telling them about His coming on [the Mount of Olives] ?

Mankind has no idea how much suffering is caused by religious deception.

“And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew
him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily
say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

-the above was completed, the temple was destroyed.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/162118-who-does-temple-mt-belong-2.html#post3412348

-But when he was alone with the deciples, the question was changed.
The disciples were asking Jesus about the end of an “age” of human history.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,
when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The most important prophecy Christ delivered while He was on Earth was the Olivet
prophecy. All prophecy really revolves around this prophecy, which is recorded in
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all recorded the Gospel of Christ.

Why is John the only one of the four Gospels who did not record the Olivet prophecy?

Actually he does, but not in the Gospel of John. He records it in the book of Rev. ch.6
It is in this chapter that John discusses the seven seals—with the emphasis on
the first four—otherwise known as the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

The word apocalypse is an untranslated Greek word which means revelation. In the book
of Revelation, John records the seven seals, which are interpreted by Matthew 24, Mark 13
and Luke 21. So actually, all four of those authors had a version of the Olivet prophecy.

The book of Revelation has many symbols with many different interpretations.
However, we must remember that the Bible interprets itself. (2Peter 1:20-21).

God gave Christ revelation, who gave to an Angel sealed, who gave it to John.
First several chapters is in [red letters] adressed to the [new testement] church.

The book of rev. was recorded after the distruction of the temple mound area.
These seven seals are unlocked in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.

Only Christ can unlock the seven seals. “And one of the elders saith unto me,
Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath
prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof” (Revelation 5:5).
This happened after Christ was back in heaven, the new church started on pentacost.

The first and most deadly horseman is religious deception!, next is war, then famine.
With the fourth, pestilence, these horsemen represent the final, end-time culmination of
the most traumatic problems endured by a rebellious mankind. They picture one of the
most ominous scenarios ever. It is imperative that each of us take heed while there is still time.

1st horse -And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

2nd horse -And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled:
for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

3rd horse -and there shall be famines, and pestilences,
and earthquakes, in divers places.

4th horse -All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The prophecies symbolized by the four horsemen began to be fulfilled
at Christ’s first coming. The evils continue until His Second Coming.

The white horse represents the increasing number of false ministers preaching a
false Christ and false ways to “salvation.” The red horse pictures the increasing
tempo of the ravages of wars. The black horse—increasing famine. And the pale
horse—rampaging diseases.

Some of Gods warning about another gospel being preached
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ng-what-should-we-looking-33.html#post3340612

What some early chuch historians say about the lost century in history
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...who-do-we-believe-god-man-78.html#post3371867

 

[Ahwatukee]

I'm good brother, Ahwatukee

Thank you for all of your insights and views.

I dont even know how you really believe aside from your futuristic view. You could believe in calvinism or something else that I dont even know about. I know you love the last days just like I do, and have passion for it.


It's great I love you, and I admit, that I don't know everything. But I do believe the bible is true, and the things Jesus Christ said were true, and the disciple/Apostles, said where true, and I can only say that the Bible is has History (His story book) that is the Word of God, that explains everything from start to finish. ( I believe it is wrapped up greatly, and all in it has been completed)

A person believes how they feel (on certain subjects), because there are many different views out there, and not all of them have to co-relate to be understood as yours, or even mine really for that matter.


Seen a woman once in a discussion and she went through a lot in her life, and believed in Jesus Christ, also because of the way she experienced life she even believed in reincarnation, even though the bible doesn't talk about it. ( I wouldn't mind coming back here to this world if God would let me maybe Go see space He created ) I am not sure. My life could be much rougher though which is a kinda scary though to even think about.

Asked my friend Morris if you Go see God do you believe He would give you all your animals you had loved in your life back to you? He said yes.

You say the world is gonna end and Jesus Christ is gonna return, and this your hope. Great I'm glad my friend. Keep that hope, and I hope it does come true for you in your life as you are living. I want to watch it go down too maybe with you, but you might be raptured before I could meet you. I would be just stuck here...

And You know how John put right? Remember?

1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another just as He commanded us.

I believe this whole section about Has Jesus Christ Returned, has been talked about very much. I believe people have made great points, even some of the things I have presented as well because I am not the only one who believes like I do.



God bless. I do really love you, are a smart man, and you are valuable in life, like every one else my dear friend and God loves you.

With God all things are possible, but with man, it's impossible.

I see you have a gentle, humble spirit and these are Godly qualities. Forgive me if I seem to be adamant regarding God's word. But it is because I have many years of study in most Biblical topics and so I contend for the truth.

you are correct in that, the Bible is a history book, but it is also a book of future events, which are approaching very quickly. My hope is to get you to step away from Preterism, because it, along with Amillennialism, are one of the most destructive false teachings today. Through scripture I have been trying to get you to see the error of this teaching in comparison to what the word of God says.

I hope that you will consider these things.

 

[prove-all]

Do you trust what the Apostles said about Jesus Christ return?

Yes I trust what all the Apostles [and the prophets of old] said ,
from gen. to rev., that mentions Christs return. Here is just a couple.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between
your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”

Even back in gen., the bible says Satan would cause Jesus to have to suffer and be
killed, but Christ in the end would replace satan from ruler or head of this world.
Christ is comming soon to set-up his Physical Kingdom here on earth .

Jude 1:14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also,
saying, “Behold, the Lord comes [with ten thousands of His saints],

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man [comes in His glory], and all the holy
angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and [every eye] will see Him...
-
As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied
when I awake in Your likeness. Psalms 17:15

Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And
those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.
-
Comming in all His glory

His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow,
and His eyes like a flame of fire;

His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns.
He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.

“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ‘These things says the
Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:
-

So He said to them, “When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be
Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.