NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

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heartofdavid

Guest
#1
#1

Take a fresh look at these verses;

Rev 7;9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Now we know from 1 thes 4 that the dead rise FIRST.

That means these innumerable one HAD TO ARRIVE AFTER THE RAPTURE.
What a heavy revvie. LOL

 
Johnny_B

Johnny_B

Senior Member
#2
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#2

I am sorry my Brother but that would support post trib rapture, because they came out of the great tribulation. Where a verse like Revelation 3:10 “Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.” Seems to support a pre-trib rapture if you are so inclined to lean towards that view of the rapture.

I will be honest, I see it happening like that, but I do read other Scripture that leans toward a post-trib. So I am open to the Lord gathering His people to Himslef and Him not letting His people suffer the wrath or hour of trail that will come on the world to effect His body of believers.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#3
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#3
Johnny_B said:
I am sorry my Brother but that would support post trib rapture, because they came out of the great tribulation.[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily. Most people assume that this verse means "went through and came out of" but it actually means "did not go through but ESCAPED the Great Tribulation". This is the more logical interpretation since had those Christians gone through the Great Tribulation they would have been judged -- come under God's wrath -- just like the unbelieving and the ungodly. But the Bible is quite clear that Christians are NOT appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation.

Once we understand that (a) the Day of the LORD corresponds to the Great Tribulation and (b) this period of judgments if for those who reject Christ, reject the Gospel, and oppose God, we can be quite certain that that multitude ESCAPED the Great Tribulation.
Click to expand...
 
Johnny_B

Johnny_B

Senior Member
#4
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#4
Nehemiah6 said:
Not necessarily. Most people assume that this verse means "went through and came out of" but it actually means "did not go through but ESCAPED the Great Tribulation". This is the more logical interpretation since had those Christians gone through the Great Tribulation they would have been judged -- come under God's wrath -- just like the unbelieving and the ungodly. But the Bible is quite clear that Christians are NOT appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation.

Once we understand that (a) the Day of the LORD corresponds to the Great Tribulation and (b) this period of judgments if for those who reject Christ, reject the Gospel, and oppose God, we can be quite certain that that multitude ESCAPED the Great Tribulation.
Click to expand...

Here is how verses 13-14 read in the ESV “Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?”14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

How do they come to the conclusion that these saints came out before, the great tribulation, because the "coming out" in verse 14 in the Greek is in the present tense, not the past tense. There are some that believe that since it is in the present tense that it could be all that come out of great tribulation, but the problem is the definite article which makes it, the great tribulation of which there is only one. In chapter 3 it is called the, "hour of trial" that is coming on the whole world, notice it is coming, at this point it has not yet come.

What is it that they use to make it those that have escaped the great tribulation from verse 14 in chapter 7?


 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
#5
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
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#5
If they came OUT of great tribulation, it can not be before it happens. You do not come out of a tunnel before or in the middle of the tunnel, but after you come out the other side. Those coming out of great tribulation went through it, and then came out of it on the other side.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#6
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#6
Johnny_B said:
How do they come to the conclusion that these saints came out before, the great tribulation, because the "coming out" in verse 14 in the Greek is in the present tense, not the past tense.
Click to expand...
Since the Great Tribulation corresponds to Rev 14-18, Rev 7 is providing a preview, so it does not really matter whether we read it as "came out of " or "coming out of". The issue is whether this great multitude (which I believe is the Church) was subjected to the Great Tribulation. And actually Rev 3:10 would support the view that the Church was NOT subjected to the Great Tribulation (literally the Tribulation, the Great). It is significant that the words "church" or "churches" are not found in Rev 14-18.
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
#7
#7
Johnny_B said:

I am sorry my Brother but that would support post trib rapture, because they came out of the great tribulation. Where a verse like Revelation 3:10 “Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.” Seems to support a pre-trib rapture if you are so inclined to lean towards that view of the rapture.

I will be honest, I see it happening like that, but I do read other Scripture that leans toward a post-trib. So I am open to the Lord gathering His people to Himslef and Him not letting His people suffer the wrath or hour of trail that will come on the world to effect His body of believers.
Click to expand...
Impossible if the trib is on going and they ,the saints are there.

How do the dead rise FIRST if the saints are in heaven FIRST.
You are saying 1 thes 4 is not true.
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
#8
#8
SovereignGrace said:
If they came OUT of great tribulation, it can not be before it happens. You do not come out of a tunnel before or in the middle of the tunnel, but after you come out the other side. Those coming out of great tribulation went through it, and then came out of it on the other side.
Click to expand...
It says that while they are in heaven the vial judgements begin.
So,they are there DURING the judgements.

Which is making you argue that 1 thes 4 is not true. You are saying the dead DIDN'T rise first.
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
#9
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
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#9
heartofdavid said:
It says that while they are in heaven the vial judgements begin.
So,they are there DURING the judgements.

Which is making you argue that 1 thes 4 is not true. You are saying the dead DIDN'T rise first.
Click to expand...
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is at the end of the age and not a pre-trib rapture. There is no timing mentioned in that passage, none. Pre, mid, post, amil, all use that passage. But there is no timing mentioned in that.

Just like Revelation 4:1. It says John was called up, and the pre-tribs use that to support a pre-trib rapture. John, and only John, not the ekklesia, was called up.
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
#10
#10
SovereignGrace said:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is at the end of the age and not a pre-trib rapture. There is no timing mentioned in that passage, none. Pre, mid, post, amil, all use that passage. But there is no timing mentioned in that.

Just like Revelation 4:1. It says John was called up, and the pre-tribs use that to support a pre-trib rapture. John, and only John, not the ekklesia, was called up.
Click to expand...
It says the dead IN CHRIST rise first. That is the key. Those from over a thousand years ago.

It makes a powerful statement. It is saying that ONLY SAINTS FROM THE GT ARE IN THE REV 7 GROUP.

That means the general resurrection of 1 thes 4 ,dead in Christ will have had to have been first. (pretrib rapture)
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
#11
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
#11
heartofdavid said:
It says the dead IN CHRIST rise first. That is the key. Those from over a thousand years ago.

It makes a powerful statement. It is saying that ONLY SAINTS FROM THE GT ARE IN THE REV 7 GROUP.

That means the general resurrection of 1 thes 4 ,dead in Christ will have had to have been first. (pretrib rapture)
Click to expand...
I agree that THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST. So????
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
#12
#12
This is a game changer.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#13
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,376
113
#13
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is at the end of the age and not a pre-trib rapture
Click to expand...


The above event cannot take place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, because it would put the church through the entire wrath of God, which must take place first.
Just like Revelation 4:1. It says John was called up, and the pre-tribs use that to support a pre-trib rapture. John, and only John, not the ekklesia, was called up.
Click to expand...


Though John is the one being called up, it is also a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up in relation to God's wrath, which begins with the opening of the 1st seal. In support of this, in Chapters 1 thru 3 the word church is used 18 times, then after the end of chapter 3 the word church never appears again. The next time we see the church is in heaven as the bride where she will be receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb (Rev.19:6-8). The next time we see that actual word ekklesia/church again is not until Rev.22:16 which is outside the narrative. It's disappearance after the end of chapter 3 is very significant.
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
#14
#14
SovereignGrace said:
I agree that THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST. So????
Click to expand...
That means if that general resurrection of the dead in Christ of 1 thes 4 is true,which it is,then you have to place it AFTER those of rev 7.

Doesn't fit.
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#15
Jul 24, 2016
7,605
3,628
113
#15
heartofdavid said:

Take a fresh look at these verses;

Rev 7;9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Now we know from 1 thes 4 that the dead rise FIRST.

That means these innumerable one HAD TO ARRIVE AFTER THE RAPTURE.
What a heavy revvie. LOL
Click to expand...
The Very verses you use destroy the pre-tribulation rapture belief..

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

If they came out of the great tribulation then they where once in the great tribulation And if they where in the great tribulation then they where not raptured out of the world before the great tribulation started..

Therefore No pre - Tribulation rapture....
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
#16
#16
Johnny_B said:

Here is how verses 13-14 read in the ESV “Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?”14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

How do they come to the conclusion that these saints came out before, the great tribulation, because the "coming out" in verse 14 in the Greek is in the present tense, not the past tense. There are some that believe that since it is in the present tense that it could be all that come out of great tribulation, but the problem is the definite article which makes it, the great tribulation of which there is only one. In chapter 3 it is called the, "hour of trial" that is coming on the whole world, notice it is coming, at this point it has not yet come.

What is it that they use to make it those that have escaped the great tribulation from verse 14 in chapter 7?
Click to expand...
They didn't. They missed the rapture.
Mat 25,the 10 virgins. Half were not taken. Not worthy.
Remember Jesus prayed ".....but pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the world...."
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
#17
#17
Adstar said:
The Very verses you use destroy the pre-tribulation rapture belief..

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

If they came out of the great tribulation then they where once in the great tribulation And if they where in the great tribulation then they where not raptured out of the world before the great tribulation started..

Therefore No pre - Tribulation rapture....
Click to expand...
They missed the rapture.
Mat 25,the 10 virgins. Half were not taken. Not worthy.
Remember Jesus prayed ".....but pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the world...."
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

Senior Member
#19
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
#19
Revelation 6:11 when did they get there?
 
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