Is there more than one God
- Thread starter Sutra
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Every response you have gotten so far is wrong. The Words is literal, and God was not talking to other ''persons'' of the God-head there is but one God indeed. The reason It says we and us is because of the usage of the word Elohim instead if El, when referring to god. In the original Hebrew text there were no prepositions such as we or us, they were added in the translation because the term Elohim was used. Elohim is the plural form of El, and the reason it was used is because there were no captitalization in the Hebrew language to distinguish God from others false gods or angels. El could mean any supernatural being. Elohim was used to refer to God to show that He was GOD!!!!!!!!. The one and only GOD!!!!!!. They were pluralizing El to Elohim for emphasis.
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any(Isaiah 44:8).
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour(Isaiah 43:10-11).
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble(James 2:19).
14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen(1 Timothy 6:14-16).
There is only one God.
God said there is no God beside Him.
God said there was no God formed before Him and there will be no God formed after Him.Jesus cannot be a created God because God said there would be no God formed after Him.
Jesus is the only ruler and is the one true God.
There is only one God and Jesus is that God.
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them(Genesis 1:26-27).
This is a prophetic statement to the coming of God manifest in the flesh,who is Jesus Christ.God had in His mind to come in the future in flesh and God created man in the image that He would appear in the future.
The us is God the Father and the man Christ Jesus,the human body that God manifest all His attributes.
God had in His mind the plan to come in the future in flesh and God created man in the image that He would appear in the future.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made(John 1:3).
The word Word is the word Logos which means thought,plan,or mind.
God had the plan in His mind to come in the future in flesh in the beginning,and that plan was with God before He created anything,and that plan was God manifest in flesh.
That plan was with God before He created anything.
All things were made with the plan of God coming in the future in flesh,and without the plan of God coming in the future in flesh God would of not created anything that He created.
God had the plan in His mind to come in the future in flesh before He created anything and God made Adam in the image that He would appear in the future.
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were(Romans 4:16-17).
God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened for if it is a plan of God in His mind to happen in the future it will come to pass.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world(Revelation 13:8).
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world although we know it did not happen until 4000 years later because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.
Let us make man in our image is a prophetic statement to the coming of Christ who is God manifest in the flesh.The us is God the Father and the man Christ Jesus the human body that God manifest all His attributes.
God had the plan in His mind to come in the future in flesh and God created Adam in that image.
God had the plan in His mind to come in the future so it was the same as if the man Christ Jesus was already in the beginning because God calls things that have not happened as though they already happened.
The man Christ Jesus was not born until 4000 years after the creation but He can still be in the beginning because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.
The let us make man in our own image is God the Father and the man Christ Jesus.God had the plan to come in the future in flesh and God created Adam in that image.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come(Romans 5:14).
The New Testament says that Adam was made in the image of Christ who was to come.
The Old Testament says that Adam was made in the image of God.
The image of God is the image of Christ,who is God manifest in flesh.
God had the plan in His mind to come in the future in flesh and God created Adam in that image.
The let us make man in our image is a prophetic statement to the coming of Christ who is God manifest in the flesh.
The Let us make man in our image is a prophetic statement to the coming of Christ who is God the Father and the man Christ Jesus.
The Let us make man in our image is God the Father and the man Christ Jesus.
The Son the man Christ Jesus can already be in the beginning before He is born because God calls things that have not happened as though they already happened.
God can already be manifest in flesh as God the Father and the man Christ Jesus in the beginning because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.
Some people get the wrong interpretation of Jesus being on the right hand of God.
It means that God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power for a certain amount of time because the man Christ Jesus is our savior.
The Bible says that there is only one throne in heaven and one who sits on that throne and it is the throne of both God and the Lamb who is God the Father in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
Matt
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour(Isaiah 43:10-11).
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble(James 2:19).
14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen(1 Timothy 6:14-16).
There is only one God.
God said there is no God beside Him.
God said there was no God formed before Him and there will be no God formed after Him.Jesus cannot be a created God because God said there would be no God formed after Him.
Jesus is the only ruler and is the one true God.
There is only one God and Jesus is that God.
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them(Genesis 1:26-27).
This is a prophetic statement to the coming of God manifest in the flesh,who is Jesus Christ.God had in His mind to come in the future in flesh and God created man in the image that He would appear in the future.
The us is God the Father and the man Christ Jesus,the human body that God manifest all His attributes.
God had in His mind the plan to come in the future in flesh and God created man in the image that He would appear in the future.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made(John 1:3).
The word Word is the word Logos which means thought,plan,or mind.
God had the plan in His mind to come in the future in flesh in the beginning,and that plan was with God before He created anything,and that plan was God manifest in flesh.
That plan was with God before He created anything.
All things were made with the plan of God coming in the future in flesh,and without the plan of God coming in the future in flesh God would of not created anything that He created.
God had the plan in His mind to come in the future in flesh before He created anything and God made Adam in the image that He would appear in the future.
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were(Romans 4:16-17).
God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened for if it is a plan of God in His mind to happen in the future it will come to pass.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world(Revelation 13:8).
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world although we know it did not happen until 4000 years later because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.
Let us make man in our image is a prophetic statement to the coming of Christ who is God manifest in the flesh.The us is God the Father and the man Christ Jesus the human body that God manifest all His attributes.
God had the plan in His mind to come in the future in flesh and God created Adam in that image.
God had the plan in His mind to come in the future so it was the same as if the man Christ Jesus was already in the beginning because God calls things that have not happened as though they already happened.
The man Christ Jesus was not born until 4000 years after the creation but He can still be in the beginning because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.
The let us make man in our own image is God the Father and the man Christ Jesus.God had the plan to come in the future in flesh and God created Adam in that image.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come(Romans 5:14).
The New Testament says that Adam was made in the image of Christ who was to come.
The Old Testament says that Adam was made in the image of God.
The image of God is the image of Christ,who is God manifest in flesh.
God had the plan in His mind to come in the future in flesh and God created Adam in that image.
The let us make man in our image is a prophetic statement to the coming of Christ who is God manifest in the flesh.
The Let us make man in our image is a prophetic statement to the coming of Christ who is God the Father and the man Christ Jesus.
The Let us make man in our image is God the Father and the man Christ Jesus.
The Son the man Christ Jesus can already be in the beginning before He is born because God calls things that have not happened as though they already happened.
God can already be manifest in flesh as God the Father and the man Christ Jesus in the beginning because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.
Some people get the wrong interpretation of Jesus being on the right hand of God.
It means that God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power for a certain amount of time because the man Christ Jesus is our savior.
The Bible says that there is only one throne in heaven and one who sits on that throne and it is the throne of both God and the Lamb who is God the Father in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
Matt
Last edited:
S
In Hebrew much like other semitic languages you use plurals or talk about yourself in plurality for power, respect, etc. Perhaps "persons" as someone pointed out God is complex in unity.
But to answer your question "Is there more than one God"?
Of course not, and the bible over and over again affirms the fact that there is only one true God. One of the most famous Jewish prayers; the Shema comes from Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 4 "Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad. - - Hear o' Israel, the Lord our God the Lord is one.
But to answer your question "Is there more than one God"?
Of course not, and the bible over and over again affirms the fact that there is only one true God. One of the most famous Jewish prayers; the Shema comes from Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 4 "Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad. - - Hear o' Israel, the Lord our God the Lord is one.
A
THE DEFINITION OF GOD'S UNITY:
"Unity" literally means "oneness." God is one Being, in contrast to many beings. There is one and only one God (monotheism) as opposed to many gods (polytheism).
There are three related words that should be distinguished:
(1) Unity-There are not two or more gods.
(2) Simplicity-There are not two or more parts in God.
HOWEVER:
"Unity" literally means "oneness." God is one Being, in contrast to many beings. There is one and only one God (monotheism) as opposed to many gods (polytheism).
There are three related words that should be distinguished:
(1) Unity-There are not two or more gods.
(2) Simplicity-There are not two or more parts in God.
HOWEVER:
(3) Triunity-There are three persons in the one God.
The Scriptures affirm God's absolute unity from the beginning to the very end. The oneness of the Godhead is one of the most fundamental teachings of Scripture. Topical evidences include the theological basis for God's unity and the historical basis for God's unity.
With that in mind, we progress into;
THE BIBLICAL BASIS FOR THE TRINITY:
The doctrine of the Trinity is based on two basic biblical teachings:
(1) There is one and only one God.
The biblical, theological, and historical evidence for God's absolute
oneness has been established in scripture and history. We shall now address the second biblical teaching...
(2) There are three distinct persons who are God: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Three Different Persons Are God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
In addition to declaring God to be one in nature or essence, the scriptures affirm that there are three distinct persons who are God. All are called God, and all have the essential characteristics of a person. Personhood is traditionally understood as one who has intellect, feelings, and will.
All three of these characteristics are attributed to all three members of the Trinity in Scripture. Essentially, personhood refers to an "I," a "who," or a subject. Each "I" in the Trinity possesses (by virtue of its one common nature) the power to think, feel, and choose. Personhood itself is its I-ness or who-ness.
That Christ is God is affirmed in many passages and in many ways, both directly and indirectly. Yahweh is only used to refer to the one true God. No other person or thing was to be worshiped or served (Ex. 20:5), and His name and glory were not to be given to another.
Jesus prayed, "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began" (John 17:5)-this is an obvious claim for Christ's deity, for Jehovah of the Old Testament said, "My glory will I not give to another" (Isa. 42:8 NKJV). Jesus also declared, "I am the First and the Last" (Rev. l:l7)-precisely the words used by Jehovah in Isaiah 44:6. He said, "I am the good shepherd," (John 10:11), and the Old Testament said, "Jehovah is my shepherd" (Ps. 23:l ASV).
Further, Jesus claimed to be the judge of all men (John 5:27; Matt. 25:31), and Joel quotes Jehovah as saying, "There I will sit to judge all the nations on every side" (Joel 3:12). Likewise, Jesus spoke of Himself as the "bridegroom" (Matt. 25:lf.) while the Old Testament identifies Jehovah in this way (Isa. 62:5; Hosea 2:16). While the psalmist declares, "Jehovah is my light" (Ps. 27:l ASVJ) Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12).
Perhaps the strongest claim Jesus made to be Jehovah is in John 8:12 where He says, "Before Abraham was born, I am!" This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around Jesus clearly understood His meaning and picked up stones to kill Him for blaspheming (cf. John 10:31-33). The same claim is also made in Mark 14:62 and John 18:5-6.
Jesus professed deity in other ways, one of which was by claiming for himself the perogatives of God such as forgiving sin (Mark 2:5). The scribes correctly responded with "Who can forgive but God alone?" afterwards. So to prove that His claim was not an empty boast, He healed the man, offering direct proof that what He had said about forgiving sins was true also. Jesus claimed, due only to God, the power to raise and judge the dead; boldly assumed for Himself powers that only God has; and claimed that he should be be honored as God.
Jesus Claimed to Be Messiah-God. The Old Testament teaches that the coming Messiah would be God Himself, so when Jesus claimed to be that Messiah, He was also claiming to be God. Jesus Claimed to Be God by Accepting Worship. The Old Testament forbids worshiping anyone other than God (Ex. 20:l-5; Deut. 5:6-9). The New Testament agrees, showing that men refused worship (Acts 14:13-15), as did angels (Rev. 22:8-9). But Jesus accepted worship on numerous occasions, revealing that He claimed to be God.
Jesus Claimed to Have Equal Authority With God. "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:18-19).
Jesus Claimed to Be God by Requesting Prayer in His Name. Jesus not only asked people to believe in Him and obey His commandments, but He also asked them to pray in His name: "And I will do whatever you ask in my name...You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:13-14).
Jesus Claimed to Be God by His Use of Parables. Jesus' Disciples Acknowledged His Claim to Be God. Etc... etc... etc...
All members of the Trinity are equal in essence, but they do not have the same roles. In brief, the Father is the Planner, the Son is the Accomplisher, and the Holy Spirit is the Applier of salvation to believers.
What scripture plainly teaches is that God has one and only one essence (nature) and that it is not contradictory to have three persons in one essence.
All members of the Trinity are equal in essence, but they do not have the same roles. It is a heresy (called subordinationism) to affirm that there is an ontological subordination of one member of the Trinity to another, since they are identical in essence.
Nonetheless, it is clear that there is a finctional subordination; that is, not only does each member have a different function or role, but some functions are also subordinate to others.
R
Can you please explain to us, how Jesus could boldly say; "I and My Father ARE ONE."
(John 10 v 30) Then when Apostle Philip asked Jesus to show THEM (Apostles) The "Father" Jesus told Philip, " He that has seen me, hath SEEN THE FATHER" whoa!
Jesus is the express image of The Father who is pure Spirit, and cannot be seen.( Hebrews 1v3). There is not 3 persons, with different personalities , or separated etc. This is another one of Satan's lies to blind people. It is'nt "Daddy" some grandfather type with a long beard, and "Junior" taking all the beatings., and gets crucified in " Daddy's " place.
The same eternal Spirit, God also created himself a human body and sat and ate food with Abraham and Sarah in Genesis 18. No and that wasen't Jesus. Since Jesus had not come to earth yet. God can do whatever he wants Boys and Girls....
(John 10 v 30) Then when Apostle Philip asked Jesus to show THEM (Apostles) The "Father" Jesus told Philip, " He that has seen me, hath SEEN THE FATHER" whoa!
Jesus is the express image of The Father who is pure Spirit, and cannot be seen.( Hebrews 1v3). There is not 3 persons, with different personalities , or separated etc. This is another one of Satan's lies to blind people. It is'nt "Daddy" some grandfather type with a long beard, and "Junior" taking all the beatings., and gets crucified in " Daddy's " place.
The same eternal Spirit, God also created himself a human body and sat and ate food with Abraham and Sarah in Genesis 18. No and that wasen't Jesus. Since Jesus had not come to earth yet. God can do whatever he wants Boys and Girls....
A
There certainly are three separate persons in the Godhead. The lie of Satan is to lead people into confusion or astray (as he has done with you Ricke) from the perfect unity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead when discussing this topic as a prelude to leading you astray on many other important scriptural teachings.
Scripture clearly states that Jesus and the Father are one because Jesus shares the essence of God.. not that he is God the Father masquarding as God the Son in a different form as according to your error.
You're "proof" to the contrary is off as the word Angel not only refers to the spiritual beings who carry out God’s commands, it refers to the office one holds as delivering messages from God.
It is clear that all three members of the Trinity played an active role in the affairs of men in both the OT and NT. This proves that the word of God is consistent and not contradictory. We serve a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. How wonderful
Scripture clearly states that Jesus and the Father are one because Jesus shares the essence of God.. not that he is God the Father masquarding as God the Son in a different form as according to your error.
You're "proof" to the contrary is off as the word Angel not only refers to the spiritual beings who carry out God’s commands, it refers to the office one holds as delivering messages from God.
It is clear that all three members of the Trinity played an active role in the affairs of men in both the OT and NT. This proves that the word of God is consistent and not contradictory. We serve a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. How wonderful
That is good.God did appear to Abraham in a human manifestation but that did not make Him another God but God in human form and it was not Jesus for the fulness of time was not come that He should be born.
Jesus is God in a human form but is a permanent manifestation of God and the only way that the saints can see the invisible God as Jesus sits on the throne in heaven in a glorified body.
Jesus is not another God but God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus and is the way that the saints will have a visible relationship with the Father.
Jesus and the Father are one which means that God the Father and the Son,the man Christ Jesus,are together in harmony,and all who have the Spirit are one with God and in harmony with God.
Jesus is the same as us concerning Him in a bodily manifestation except He is the fulness of God where we have partial attributes.
God is in all and through all.
Take a tub of water and put a glass in it.The water fills the glass but the water in the glass is still connected to the water in the tub.The water in the tub is still one but it has a glass in it that fills with water but the water in the glass is still connected to the water in the tub,and God even more so than that because He flows through all things.
Jesus is not another God but a human being that God gave the fulness of His attributes because a sinless man has to save us and the visible relationship to the saints,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God like the Spirit in us is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God.
We are the same as Jesus in His bodily form but He is the fulness of God's attributes and we have partial attributes.
God appointed a man to be ruler over His kingdom which God is that man according to the man Christ Jesus His glorified body.
The Bible says that the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father but in another scripture it says the Son shall deliver the Church to Himself.
Matt
Jesus is God in a human form but is a permanent manifestation of God and the only way that the saints can see the invisible God as Jesus sits on the throne in heaven in a glorified body.
Jesus is not another God but God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus and is the way that the saints will have a visible relationship with the Father.
Jesus and the Father are one which means that God the Father and the Son,the man Christ Jesus,are together in harmony,and all who have the Spirit are one with God and in harmony with God.
Jesus is the same as us concerning Him in a bodily manifestation except He is the fulness of God where we have partial attributes.
God is in all and through all.
Take a tub of water and put a glass in it.The water fills the glass but the water in the glass is still connected to the water in the tub.The water in the tub is still one but it has a glass in it that fills with water but the water in the glass is still connected to the water in the tub,and God even more so than that because He flows through all things.
Jesus is not another God but a human being that God gave the fulness of His attributes because a sinless man has to save us and the visible relationship to the saints,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God like the Spirit in us is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God.
We are the same as Jesus in His bodily form but He is the fulness of God's attributes and we have partial attributes.
God appointed a man to be ruler over His kingdom which God is that man according to the man Christ Jesus His glorified body.
The Bible says that the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father but in another scripture it says the Son shall deliver the Church to Himself.
Matt
A
No mpaper that's not right. Your hypothesis that Jesus cannot be involved with creation until he is born into the form of baby Jesus is that of your own making. It's not what the Bible says.
The angel of the Lord first appears in Genesis 16:7 and then intermittently throughout the early Old Testament books. In other passages an individual manifesting himself in human form is frequently called “the Lord” (Gen 12:7; 17:1; 18:1). If this angel actually were God, why is he called an angel? Since the root meaning of angel is “messenger” or “one who is sent,” we must determine from context whether the word refers to the office of the sent one or to the nature of created angels as ifinite beings.
Initially, some contexts of the term “angel of the Lord” appear to refer to nothing more than any other angel (as in Judges 6:11). But as the narrative progresses, that angel soon transcends the angelic category and is described in terms suited only to a member of the Trinity. Thus in the Judges 6 episode, we are startled when verse 14 has the Lord speaking to Gideon, when previously only the angel of the Lord had been talking.
Many Old Testament passages state that this angel is God. Thus, after being told that Hagar had been speaking with the angel of the Lord (four times in Gen 16:7, 9–11), Genesis 16:13 informs us that Hagar “gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: ‘You are the God who sees me.’” Jacob’s testimony in Genesis 48:15–16 is even more striking. He identifies the God in whose presence his fathers Abraham and Isaac had lived as “the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, the Angel who has delivered me from all harm.”
This angel spoke to Jacob earlier in a dream and identified himself by saying, “I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me” (Gen 31:11, 13).
Likewise in Exodus 3:2–6 the phrase “the angel of the Lord” is used interchangeably with “the Lord.” In fact the angel claims, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob” (Ex 3:6).
The passage, however, that really clinches this remarkable identification is Exodus 23:20–23. There God promises to send his angel ahead of the children of Israel as they go through the desert. The Israelites were warned that they must obey and not rebel against this angel. The reason was a stunning one: “Since my Name is in him.” God would never share his memorial name with anyone else, for Isaiah 42:8 advised that he would never share his glory with another. Thus the name of God stands for himself. And when a person is said to have the name of God in him, that person is God!
This angel has divine qualities, prerogatives and authority. He has the power to give life (Gen 16:10) and to see and know all (Gen 16:13; Ex 3:7). Only God can forgive sin, yet this angel did the same in Exodus 23:21. The angel performed miracles such as keeping a burning bush from being consumed (Ex 3:2), smiting Egypt with plagues (Ex 3:20), calling forth fire on the rock to consume the meal set for him (Judg 6:21) and ascending the flame of the altar (Judg 13:20).
Finally, this angel commanded and received worship from Moses (Ex 3:5) and Joshua (Josh 5:14). Angels were not to receive worship. When John attempted to worship an angel in Revelation 19:10; 22:8–9, he was corrected quickly and told not to do it.
It is clear from this abundance of evidence that the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament was a preincarnate form of our Lord Jesus Christ, who would later permanently take on flesh when he came as a babe in Bethlehem.
But mark it well: the one who came after John had already been before—he was that angel of the Lord. His full deity was always observed and yet he presented the same mystery of the Trinity that would later be observed in “I and the Father are one” (Jn 10:30) and “my other witness is the Father, who sent me” (Jn 8:18). It is that word sent that ties together the angel, messenger or sent one into an Old Testament theology of christophanies, appearances of God in human form.
It is clear that all three members of the Trinity played an active role in the affairs of men in both the OT and NT. This proves that the word of God is consistent and not contradictory. We serve a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. How wonderful !
Consider 1 Corinthians 10:4 about the children of Israel in the wilderness: "They drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ" (NKJV).
This is not allegory-the Rock that followed them was a literal rock, just as the manna they ate was literal food from heaven. The Greek word spiritual (pneumatikos) refers not to the rock's nature but the rock's source.
Just as a "spiritual" person (cf.2:14-15) is a literal physical person whose life is dominated by the Spirit, even so the literal rock in the wilderness was spirit dominated and it "followed them" around for forty years with an endless Source of water. The rock was a Christophany, a literal manifestation of Christ and His supernatural power, like the Angel of the Lord appearing in physical human form (cf. Gen. 18:2,8, 22).
You're going to have to change your man-made hypothesis about what God is and what Jesus can and cannot do to align with scripture and therefore reality friend.
The angel of the Lord first appears in Genesis 16:7 and then intermittently throughout the early Old Testament books. In other passages an individual manifesting himself in human form is frequently called “the Lord” (Gen 12:7; 17:1; 18:1). If this angel actually were God, why is he called an angel? Since the root meaning of angel is “messenger” or “one who is sent,” we must determine from context whether the word refers to the office of the sent one or to the nature of created angels as ifinite beings.
Initially, some contexts of the term “angel of the Lord” appear to refer to nothing more than any other angel (as in Judges 6:11). But as the narrative progresses, that angel soon transcends the angelic category and is described in terms suited only to a member of the Trinity. Thus in the Judges 6 episode, we are startled when verse 14 has the Lord speaking to Gideon, when previously only the angel of the Lord had been talking.
Many Old Testament passages state that this angel is God. Thus, after being told that Hagar had been speaking with the angel of the Lord (four times in Gen 16:7, 9–11), Genesis 16:13 informs us that Hagar “gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: ‘You are the God who sees me.’” Jacob’s testimony in Genesis 48:15–16 is even more striking. He identifies the God in whose presence his fathers Abraham and Isaac had lived as “the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, the Angel who has delivered me from all harm.”
This angel spoke to Jacob earlier in a dream and identified himself by saying, “I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me” (Gen 31:11, 13).
Likewise in Exodus 3:2–6 the phrase “the angel of the Lord” is used interchangeably with “the Lord.” In fact the angel claims, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob” (Ex 3:6).
The passage, however, that really clinches this remarkable identification is Exodus 23:20–23. There God promises to send his angel ahead of the children of Israel as they go through the desert. The Israelites were warned that they must obey and not rebel against this angel. The reason was a stunning one: “Since my Name is in him.” God would never share his memorial name with anyone else, for Isaiah 42:8 advised that he would never share his glory with another. Thus the name of God stands for himself. And when a person is said to have the name of God in him, that person is God!
This angel has divine qualities, prerogatives and authority. He has the power to give life (Gen 16:10) and to see and know all (Gen 16:13; Ex 3:7). Only God can forgive sin, yet this angel did the same in Exodus 23:21. The angel performed miracles such as keeping a burning bush from being consumed (Ex 3:2), smiting Egypt with plagues (Ex 3:20), calling forth fire on the rock to consume the meal set for him (Judg 6:21) and ascending the flame of the altar (Judg 13:20).
Finally, this angel commanded and received worship from Moses (Ex 3:5) and Joshua (Josh 5:14). Angels were not to receive worship. When John attempted to worship an angel in Revelation 19:10; 22:8–9, he was corrected quickly and told not to do it.
It is clear from this abundance of evidence that the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament was a preincarnate form of our Lord Jesus Christ, who would later permanently take on flesh when he came as a babe in Bethlehem.
But mark it well: the one who came after John had already been before—he was that angel of the Lord. His full deity was always observed and yet he presented the same mystery of the Trinity that would later be observed in “I and the Father are one” (Jn 10:30) and “my other witness is the Father, who sent me” (Jn 8:18). It is that word sent that ties together the angel, messenger or sent one into an Old Testament theology of christophanies, appearances of God in human form.
It is clear that all three members of the Trinity played an active role in the affairs of men in both the OT and NT. This proves that the word of God is consistent and not contradictory. We serve a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. How wonderful
!Consider 1 Corinthians 10:4 about the children of Israel in the wilderness: "They drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ" (NKJV).
This is not allegory-the Rock that followed them was a literal rock, just as the manna they ate was literal food from heaven. The Greek word spiritual (pneumatikos) refers not to the rock's nature but the rock's source.
Just as a "spiritual" person (cf.2:14-15) is a literal physical person whose life is dominated by the Spirit, even so the literal rock in the wilderness was spirit dominated and it "followed them" around for forty years with an endless Source of water. The rock was a Christophany, a literal manifestation of Christ and His supernatural power, like the Angel of the Lord appearing in physical human form (cf. Gen. 18:2,8, 22).
You're going to have to change your man-made hypothesis about what God is and what Jesus can and cannot do to align with scripture and therefore reality friend.
A
Try to pass on the ad hominem argumentation forerunner as much as possible. It really reflects poorly on your character. My advice is to refocus on the authentic New Testament systematic theology aligning with both Apostolic tradition and early church history and to which mainstream conservative Christian scholars across the globe adhere to and let go of your personal heresy.
God bless you in that endeavor
God bless you in that endeavor
A
Yes and Ricke please read my refutation of forerunner's heretical modalist position. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are, in fact, three persons equal in authority but with differeng roles that share the very essence of God. This is known as the doctrine of the Trinity and exactly what scripture teaches in context with itself, what Jesus taught, what the Apostles taught, and what the early church and the early church fathers taught.
Refuting heresy is a good thing. Praise the Lord!
Refuting heresy is a good thing. Praise the Lord!