The perfecting of Jesus

[VW]

It is written in scripture that Jesus was perfected by the things that He suffered. But we ask, how could God, who is perfect, even need to be perfected? And while this question would seem valid, it shows a decided lack of understanding about the redemptive work that He undertook for us, at the command of our Father. Perfected by the things which He suffered. What does this mean? And how why were these things necessary, for His perfection?

Before we came to the knowledge of the truth, when we received the testimony of the Spirit that Jesus is alive, our Lord from God and our savior, we had no contact with the living God. We had no place in Him, and He had no place in us. This is what being lost is all about, separation from God. The simple reason for this is that God is life, and there is not any life outside of Him. He is so much life that He can raise the dead and give them life. This separation from God is the ultimate death sentence, because what appears to be life is really death, our fleshly life.

Jesus is God. As John wrote, the Word was with God in the beginning and was God. This Word became flesh. He took on the same physical being as we are burdened with. And while He was without sin, He endured this debasement, becoming flesh and blood among a people who would not recognize Him for who He was. These same people, after seeing Him do works such as had never been seen, tried to kill Him when He told them the truth, that He was the Son of God. This was suffering.

Then, as He comes to His sacrifice for us, He begins to share with those the Father had given Him about just what He was doing, and what He would become to and for and in them. But they did not understand, could not understand. Jesus told them that not until the Spirit Whom He would send came to them, that they could not understand. They could not see and understand the significance of what He was going to do. This was suffering.

And then, in an act of sacrificial love such that it transcends time, being an event which is present from the foundations of the world even into eternity; His death on the cross, again for us. In this one act, He became sin for us, actually took on sin, all sin, and died to sin on the cross. This was necessary because we were dead in our sin, unable to overcome sin's power in our lives. This separated us from God, and condemned us to death. He became sin for us so that we could become righteousness in Him. This too was suffering.

In all of this, there is one overriding purpose, one desired outcome; that we becomes joined to God, and thus have life. Jesus became all that we were, became one with us, so that we could become one with Him, and thus enter into relationship with God, just as He is in God, in relationship with the Father. Our Father, by virtue of the Spirit's dwelling in us, gave this place to the Son. Until the last one who will believe is joined to Jesus, Is actually joined to Him, He will not be complete. Perfect as God is perfect, but not yet complete.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Good place to repeat a post I wrote earlier refuting Ed's nonsense.

Jesus was sinless. 1 Peter 2:22 says, "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." 1 John 3:5 says, "...and in him is no sin." Then in John chapter 8 Jesus said of himself, "Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says..."

The author of Hebrews implies that Jesus, as the preincarnate Son of God, was indeed perfect (Heb 1:2–3). He is greater than the prophets, heir of all things and maker of the universe. But in the passage under consideration he is not in that preincarnate role. His role here is that of “the author of [the Christians’] salvation.” The preincarnate Son of God was not yet perfect in relation to that role. In fact, he could not fulfill that role at all until he became incarnate and died for the sins of humanity.

Perfection is an important concept in Hebrews (Heb 5:9, 14; 6:1; 7:11, 19, 28; 9:9, 11; 10:1, 14; 11:40; 12:2, 23). The Greek term means “to bring to maturity, perfection or fulfillment.”1 The fulfillment aspect is the most important in Hebrews. The theme of the whole book is the fulfillment of the reality behind Mosaic ritual, but there is also a fulfillment coming to the lives of Christians as they go on to complete that to which they were called at their conversion. Even though Christ has done everything for them on the cross and they receive this upon committing themselves to him, there is a promise involved in this reception that is not fulfilled until they live out that to which they were called.

This same concept of fulfillment appears in Christ. At birth he is designated as Savior, but he has at that time done nothing to deserve such a title. It is a promise, a hope, but not yet a reality. He goes through life obeying the will of God and therefore experiencing suffering (Heb 2:18). The question remains: Will he keep on until the end? At Gethsemane, facing the time of fulfillment, he cries out, “Not my will but yours be done” (Heb 5:7 reflects this Gospel cry). He continues on his way to the cross and fulfills everything that is needed to be “founder” (the Greek term means “author,” “founder” or “leader” in most contexts) of salvation for his followers. Before that point he was not yet perfect, for death was a requirement to bring life to his people. After his death and resurrection he was the total fulfillment of all that was needed to bring salvation.

Therefore the perfection of Christ referred to here is a functional perfection, not a moral perfection, for he was never anything less than sinless. It is an earned perfection that will show up in its other aspects three more times in Hebrews (Heb 2:18; 4:15; 5:7–9), but at this point the function is salvation, earned only through death. Thus in talking about the perfecting of Christ the author underlines the fact that it was only through death and the suffering related to it that the world could gain a Savior.

 

[VW]

Hi Age,
I read your post three times, and each time I felt disturbed by something. I finally realized what it was. There is no acknowledgment of the emotions of God. You se, Jesus really suffered, not just in enduring a physical death, but in so many ways before this death on a tree. He said often, in amazement and in anguish, "Why can't you hear what I am saying?" even when Peter denied Him 3 times and 3 times asked him if he loved Him, He suffered.

What I have found most often when there is knowledge gained from scripture is a missing of the emotional aspect of our God. God sent Jesus to gather the sheep that He has given Him, by laying down His life for them. He became a curse for us, taking sin upon Himself and dying to sin, so that we could have His righteousness by being in Him. He had this commandment from the Father, and because He did lay down His life for us, God the Father loves Him.

We would like to forget that God has emotions, love, hate, anger, compassion, even pity. But He does, and we cannot look upon His emotions intellectually because emotions are not of the intellect but are of the heart. And while God has all knowledge, the one word used to describe Him as He is, is love; God is love. We would do well to never forget this, and even better to come to know this love better .

It is difficult to hurt an intellect. A heart that loves can be hurt easily. Suffering that is on the inside is always much more painful than that which pains the flesh.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I made an accurate theological statement. You made a good point about God's deep emotional quotient. I acknowledge the emotions of God and accept what you wrote. Peace and God bless.

 

[ed]

Good place to repeat a post I wrote earlier refuting Ed's nonsense.

Jesus was sinless. 1 Peter 2:22 says, "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." 1 John 3:5 says, "...and in him is no sin." Then in John chapter 8 Jesus said of himself, "Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says..."

The author of Hebrews implies that Jesus, as the preincarnate Son of God, was indeed perfect (Heb 1:2–3). He is greater than the prophets, heir of all things and maker of the universe. But in the passage under consideration he is not in that preincarnate role. His role here is that of “the author of [the Christians’] salvation.” The preincarnate Son of God was not yet perfect in relation to that role. In fact, he could not fulfill that role at all until he became incarnate and died for the sins of humanity.

Perfection is an important concept in Hebrews (Heb 5:9, 14; 6:1; 7:11, 19, 28; 9:9, 11; 10:1, 14; 11:40; 12:2, 23). The Greek term means “to bring to maturity, perfection or fulfillment.”1 The fulfillment aspect is the most important in Hebrews. The theme of the whole book is the fulfillment of the reality behind Mosaic ritual, but there is also a fulfillment coming to the lives of Christians as they go on to complete that to which they were called at their conversion. Even though Christ has done everything for them on the cross and they receive this upon committing themselves to him, there is a promise involved in this reception that is not fulfilled until they live out that to which they were called.

This same concept of fulfillment appears in Christ. At birth he is designated as Savior, but he has at that time done nothing to deserve such a title. It is a promise, a hope, but not yet a reality. He goes through life obeying the will of God and therefore experiencing suffering (Heb 2:18). The question remains: Will he keep on until the end? At Gethsemane, facing the time of fulfillment, he cries out, “Not my will but yours be done” (Heb 5:7 reflects this Gospel cry). He continues on his way to the cross and fulfills everything that is needed to be “founder” (the Greek term means “author,” “founder” or “leader” in most contexts) of salvation for his followers. Before that point he was not yet perfect, for death was a requirement to bring life to his people. After his death and resurrection he was the total fulfillment of all that was needed to bring salvation.

Therefore the perfection of Christ referred to here is a functional perfection, not a moral perfection, for he was never anything less than sinless. It is an earned perfection that will show up in its other aspects three more times in Hebrews (Heb 2:18; 4:15; 5:7–9), but at this point the function is salvation, earned only through death. Thus in talking about the perfecting of Christ the author underlines the fact that it was only through death and the suffering related to it that the world could gain a Savior.

Hi AgeofKnowledge,
More nonsense coming up. Funny how times don't change. Scholars in Jesus's time are the same today. Miles from the truth. You should get out of the antiseptic classroom and live and follow Jesus's command. On Jesus perfecting. Jesus was taught by the Holy Spirit. He learned obedience from what he suffered. He was obedient before he began his ministry. His life was suffering.
Then when he went to his home town and only a few minor miracles could be done because of their disbelief and they said to him, Physician heal thyself or similar. They reason this was spoken to Jesus is because he took on people's illnesses. A price always has to be paid. He took their illnesses. When the lady who suffered bleeding touched his cloak and Jesus said, healing power had gone out from him, what Jesus could have said, Sickness has come into me. When Jesus left his home town as a carpenter he left as a young healthy male. On his return he was sickly. So they said to him, heal yourself first then we may belief you. The reason Jesus did not heal people in his home town was because they did not ask. The disbelief in the townspeople is not more powerful than the authority of God.
You will also notice that the disciples were sickly also. These men did not swan around healing people without consequence. They truly had to love the humanity they were healing. It cost them their personal health. Many people desire a healing ministry but I wonder how many would stay the course once each healing took its toll on them personally.

can you help me with the meaning of "divers" Thanks in advance.
love
edwin.

 

[Red33]

Ed - It is not always a wise thing to exhort a student who has a zeal for God's word. Remember the words of the Lord are pure words, tried in the fire as silver and purified seven times (Ps 12:6). You have to have the word hid in your heart for it to be tried. This is how God works his word into the life of the believer to be transformed and renewed in the spirit of their mind. One of the best ways to learn doctrine and the word of God (in meekness) is systematically through categories or topics. Learning this way, line upon line and precept upon precept, allows the Holy Spirit to bring doctrine and the words of our Lord back to our remembrance specifically to meet what is needed.

The Holy Spirit will also help us in the application of that word that is needed. The job of the student is to make themselves available to hear the word preached so they can learn humility and submission, to study so that they can show themselves approved and to walk by faith in the word that they have been taught by the Holy Spirit. The student learns the word through men that God has raised up in the church to preach and teach, through their own diligent personal study and through the portion of other members of God's body. Then through the plan of God and the details of life, the student learns to be quickened by the word and to walk in the light of it. As they walk in the light they have fellowship with God, his Son and with other believers who are also walking in the light. Let the student learn, hide the word in his heart and walk by the faith that the word has produced in his heart.

 

[VW]

I learned the way you show here, and it was wrong. I was still in sin, and did not even have enough of a relationship with God to allow Him to show me I was in sin. And I knew doctrine and scripture and was a member in submission. And still I was in sin. But when I begin to have a relationship with the Father through Jesus Christ, then I begin to learn life, liberty from sin, and most of all, love as God is love. I don't study systematically anymore. I actually despise this method. It depends upon reason and intellect for knowledge, with very little trust in the revelation of the Spirit in our learning. Lean not to your own understanding. And the Spirit, He brings to my remembrance scripture as words of life, and so I say, "Hence, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them." Who is He interceding for? Those who are drawing near to God through Him. Not those who are gaining correct doctrine through systems of teaching and believing.

But what does this have to do with Jesus being perfected by His suffering?

 

[VW]

Hi AgeofKnowledge,


can you help me with the meaning of "divers" Thanks in advance.
love
edwin.

I think that it means diverse.

Blessings brother,
vic

 

[serpentslayer]

People seem to forget that sin dwells in the flesh; therefore, because Jesus too was in the flesh, sin was with HIM also: not his own, but the sin from Adam (carnality). And it was not until He died that this 'sin' was shed. Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are because HE had to deal wtih this curse of the flesh; but, by HIS Life, we learn that one can overcome this lustful nature with the Spirit of GOd within us.
I also find it interesting how people can talk all about Christ and what HE did without mentioning sin (as VW has done). Sin, sin ,sin: this is the only thing that separates us from GOD, and the reason CHrist came, lived, was crucified and resurrected, thereby providing us with the way to have peace wtih GOD, which is having the Spirit within us. (Jn14:17; 1Jn3:18-24, 4:12)

 

[Saint]

VW, forgive me if you answered this and I didn't see it, but are you saying that Jesus commited sin, or that sin was put on Him?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I learned the way you show here, and it was wrong. I was still in sin, and did not even have enough of a relationship with God to allow Him to show me I was in sin. And I knew doctrine and scripture and was a member in submission. And still I was in sin. But when I begin to have a relationship with the Father through Jesus Christ, then I begin to learn life, liberty from sin, and most of all, love as God is love. I don't study systematically anymore. I actually despise this method. It depends upon reason and intellect for knowledge, with very little trust in the revelation of the Spirit in our learning. Lean not to your own understanding. And the Spirit, He brings to my remembrance scripture as words of life, and so I say, "Hence, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them." Who is He interceding for? Those who are drawing near to God through Him. Not those who are gaining correct doctrine through systems of teaching and believing.

But what does this have to do with Jesus being perfected by His suffering?

That's sad you were in the state. I'm glad you found your way out of it. Myself, I'm not in sin friend. I'm sold out for God, enveloped in His holiness, amazing love, and leading a life committed to His purposes for my life. I have a vibrant spritual relationship with God. Praise the Lord!

Just as a word of caution friend, you should not begin to project your past upon other people's present making statements that aren't correct. For example, misstating that a person who accurately handles the Word of God must be:

A. in sin
B. missing out on God's love

is absurd. Even if you "feel" that way.

I'm not saying that you're doing that but it kind of looks like it in this thread.

Now PRAISE THE LORD!!!

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Scholars in Jesus's time are the same today. Miles from the truth.

Our mainstream conservative Christian scholars are a good lot overall Ed. You are calling them all Pharisees here but that's not the truth.

Are you familiar with the scholar John Ankerberg?

Ankerberg Theological Research Institute, John Ankerberg Show - Christian Apologetics, Jesus, Bible&Christ

John is a super guy, authentic Christian man, and smart Christian scholar.

Here's a relevant article from him on the Trinity discussion: http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/editors-choice/EC2W1202C.pdf

 

[VW]

VW, forgive me if you answered this and I didn't see it, but are you saying that Jesus commited sin, or that sin was put on Him?

Jesus was sinless, and became sin for us. No, He did not commit sin, but took all sin upon Himself, and died to sin forever. Paul wrote that Jesus became a curse for us, for cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.

Jesus took sin itself, upon Himself, and carried it to the cross and died. He became one with us in our death because of sin so that we could become one with Him in His righteousness.

 

[VW]

People seem to forget that sin dwells in the flesh; therefore, because Jesus too was in the flesh, sin was with HIM also: not his own, but the sin from Adam (carnality). And it was not until He died that this 'sin' was shed. Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are because HE had to deal wtih this curse of the flesh; but, by HIS Life, we learn that one can overcome this lustful nature with the Spirit of GOd within us.
I also find it interesting how people can talk all about Christ and what HE did without mentioning sin (as VW has done). Sin, sin ,sin: this is the only thing that separates us from GOD, and the reason CHrist came, lived, was crucified and resurrected, thereby providing us with the way to have peace wtih GOD, which is having the Spirit within us. (Jn14:17; 1Jn3:18-24, 4:12)

No, Jesus did not have sin in His flesh, because He was not a descendant of Adam. Adam's sin was not carnality, but disobedience. Jesus' righteousness was not abstinence from sin, but obedience to God. But Jesus did take our sin to the cross for us, by becoming a sacrifice for us, by becoming all of our sins and dying. Even more so, we died in Him to sin, to be raised in Him to newness of life with His righteousness.

And you are absolutely correct that we overcome sin in our flesh by the power of the Holy Spirit, and by Him alone. We are putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit.

Blessing brother,
vic

 

[Saint]

Jesus was sinless, and became sin for us. No, He did not commit sin, but took all sin upon Himself, and died to sin forever. Paul wrote that Jesus became a curse for us, for cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.

Jesus took sin itself, upon Himself, and carried it to the cross and died. He became one with us in our death because of sin so that we could become one with Him in His righteousness.

that's what i've always been taught, except for the becoming sin part. and it makes since, too. I mean how's dieing a sacrifice if you're raised up from the dead 3 days later? To be perfect and holy, then to have sin even touch you is bad enough, but for all the sin of the world in all times to come on you is a true sacrifice. I mean, to think that Jesus would be begging for some other way because a death that is horrible, but has been done before to normal humans, seems off.

 

[VW]

That's sad you were in the state. I'm glad you found your way out of it. Myself, I'm not in sin friend. I'm sold out for God, enveloped in His holiness, amazing love, and leading a life committed to His purposes for my life. I have a vibrant spritual relationship with God. Praise the Lord!

Just as a word of caution friend, you should not begin to project your past upon other people's present making statements that aren't correct. For example, misstating that a person who accurately handles the Word of God must be:

A. in sin
B. missing out on God's love

is absurd. Even if you "feel" that way.

I'm not saying that you're doing that but it kind of looks like it in this thread.

Now PRAISE THE LORD!!!

No, I am not projecting anything. I am making a statement, a simple statement which is often ignored, even though it is right there in scripture. Knowing the bible, even if you do not sin, (and I contend that knowing the bible is no proof against sin, because even if one resists the nature, the sin is still in the soul,) is not salvation. Knowing God is salvation, and being in fellowship with Him, through Jesus Christ.

What I am doing is placing the emphasis where it belongs again, on us drawing near to God, and not on doctrinal correctness, or biblical knowledge, or church membership. Nothing saves us but drawing near to God, and nothing keeps us from sin except drawing near to God.

It is in His presence, when we approach Him and humble ourselves before Him that we find the truth, because the truth is our God, and not some concept that we can hold in our minds. And Jesus came and did all that He did and went to the cross and died to sin and rose again to righteousness for this one reason, that we could draw near to God in Him.

Yeah, I do praise the Lord, with my very life. I don't hold up a church or a bible or a doctrine before those I testify to, but Jesus Christ, my life.

Blessings,
vic

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

That's awesome; however, following heresy doesn't bring one closer to God. In fact, it has led many a person away from Him. Hence, the desirability of doctrinal correctness. Have a great day and Praise the Lord!

No, I am not projecting anything. I am making a statement, a simple statement which is often ignored, even though it is right there in scripture. Knowing the bible, even if you do not sin, (and I contend that knowing the bible is no proof against sin, because even if one resists the nature, the sin is still in the soul,) is not salvation. Knowing God is salvation, and being in fellowship with Him, through Jesus Christ.

What I am doing is placing the emphasis where it belongs again, on us drawing near to God, and not on doctrinal correctness, or biblical knowledge, or church membership. Nothing saves us but drawing near to God, and nothing keeps us from sin except drawing near to God.

It is in His presence, when we approach Him and humble ourselves before Him that we find the truth, because the truth is our God, and not some concept that we can hold in our minds. And Jesus came and did all that He did and went to the cross and died to sin and rose again to righteousness for this one reason, that we could draw near to God in Him.

Yeah, I do praise the Lord, with my very life. I don't hold up a church or a bible or a doctrine before those I testify to, but Jesus Christ, my life.

Blessings,
vic

 

[VW]

That's awesome; however, following heresy doesn't bring one closer to God. In fact, it has led many a person away from Him. Hence, the desirability of doctrinal correctness. Have a great day and Praise the Lord!

Do what?!%#

How can drawing near to God through Jesus Christ lead to heresy? You have got to be kidding!

And how, pray tell, can correct doctrine insure that one does draw near to God?

Are you actually calling what I wrote heresy?

Did you know what brought those of the early churches together? God. Not the bible, not bible collage, not doctrine, not denominations. Jesus, and living in His life.

Did you know that the church was hijacked in the 4th century? By, of all things, a Roman emperor. And this pagan, who saw a sign of, of all things, a cross, and went on to conquer in the sign of the cross, then decided that he was blessed of God and therefore a christian, and made it a law that everyone in his empire become a christian. (Simplified, I know, but basically accurate.) And from this the religion of christianity was born. Notice that I said religion, and not church. And from this rock, this emperor of Rome who saw a sign in heaven that allowed him to win a battle, the catholic church was born, and from that came all of the rest of the denominations. (For you see, what something comes from determines its actually heritage.)

Now I will say that all through this tortured and convoluted history of the religious church, that there have been people who have had a deep and abiding relationship with God through Jesus. Usually, they were rejected or even killed for this relationship, because it is always threatening to those who are the leaders of the religion for any of the followers to actually get close to God, to actually walk in the power of the Holy Spirit and have communication with the living God. But still, some always found the way, that is, the Way that Jesus is. (He is the Way into fellowship with God.)

And would you believe that the reason the bible was hidden for so long by these same religious leaders was to keep more people from finding this Way. Because then, if they suddenly found that they could hear God's voice, then they would not be as apt to believe the lies that they were being taught, all the rules which gave them power over the people.

Well, now we come to the end of days, and we are staring the end of our society and the world as we know it right in the face. And God is not asking us to become more religious. Oh no, He is asking us to find Him, to live for Him and with Him and in Him. And this heresy, as you call it, I will follow, until His return.

Praise the Lord Jesus, who is coming soon.
Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus.

 

[VW]

I realize that you might have not been calling what I wrote before heresy. But many do, and consider it to be a deviant form of worship and of Christianity.

I do not believe that doctrine is proof against heresy. Only a relationship with God through Jesus by the Spirit is proof against heresy, and even then one will go off the path at times, but God brings them back, stronger in Him than ever before.

 

[Saint]

And how, pray tell, can correct doctrine insure that one does draw near to God?

I think that he was meaning it the same way Psalm 119:11 means it, not that it guarantees one to draw near, but that it helps keep them from falling away, and therefore helps move us forward.