You can believe whatever you like but there is not connection between the Tribulation and the Rapture in Scripture. Check it out for yourself. There is no reference to "church" "the Church" or "churches" from Revelation 4 to Rev 22, but the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are described in those chapters.
The Rapture of the Church is not biblical.
- Thread starter tcross11
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The whole of Revelation is to the church (grouped into 7 churches) - from chapter 1;
REv 1:4John,To the seven churches in the province of Asia:Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[SUP]a[/SUP]before his throne,
To
Rev 22:16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[SUP]a[/SUP] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
The whole of Revelation is for the church.
REv 1:4John,To the seven churches in the province of Asia:Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[SUP]a[/SUP]before his throne,
To
Rev 22:16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[SUP]a[/SUP] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
The whole of Revelation is for the church.
Did you read what I said? From the fourth chapter you will not find any mention of "church", churches", or "the church". Check it out for yourself. That has relevance in connecting the Church with the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation. However the whole Bible is for the Church (believers) and that is not the issue.
There will be no people flying off to escape the great tribulation. The ones advocating for this (rapture) should tell us the criteria for being in the group that flies and that for being left behind. Don't you know that believers are the light of these world? the light being removed is what Matt 24 talks of darkness and the stars falling/sun nit giving it's light/moon being bloodied - but the kind of symbols being used is not friendly; the moon being bloodied/ the stars falling/ the sun being covered by a sack cloth means agony and pain and death (ultimately).
So no flying off.
So no flying off.
The information contained in the book of Revelation is for the church to know so that we can use it to warn people as part of our testimony of Christ and the coming wrath of God. However, the wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is not something that the church is going to experience. As Nehemiah6 pointed out, the last time the church is mentioned is at the very end of chapter 3, with Rev.4:1-2 being a prophetic allusion to the where the church is gathered in relation to the chronological order of events listed in Revelation. That the church no longer appears is not a coincidence, but a Godly clue for those who closely study His word.
Just out of curiosity, what do you make of the following scripture:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
As you can see from the scripture above, yes, there will be a "flying off" and that to meet the Lord in the air. Setting aside the timing of the gathering of the church, surely you must believe what is written above, that the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are still alive at that time will be changed and "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air. Do you deny this event?
As far as the timing, we are told that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, which is what the tribulation period is. People have corrupted it by dividing that last seven years into man's or Satan's wrath and the other part as being God's wrath. The truth of the matter is that, the entire seven years is the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. That includes the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the plagues that the two witnesses will be bringing upon the earth, as well as everything that the antichrist/beast will be performing. It's all apart of God's plan and he will be using Satan and the antichrist/beast to accomplish His purpose during the time of His wrath.
But getting back to believers not being appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, it is because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Therefore, for the church to go through God's wrath, would make the wrath that Jesus suffered as though He had not. It would in fact be like a double payment, once by Jesus and once by the church.
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
As you can see from the scripture above, yes, there will be a "flying off" and that to meet the Lord in the air. Setting aside the timing of the gathering of the church, surely you must believe what is written above, that the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are still alive at that time will be changed and "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air. Do you deny this event?
As far as the timing, we are told that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, which is what the tribulation period is. People have corrupted it by dividing that last seven years into man's or Satan's wrath and the other part as being God's wrath. The truth of the matter is that, the entire seven years is the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. That includes the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the plagues that the two witnesses will be bringing upon the earth, as well as everything that the antichrist/beast will be performing. It's all apart of God's plan and he will be using Satan and the antichrist/beast to accomplish His purpose during the time of His wrath.
But getting back to believers not being appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, it is because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Therefore, for the church to go through God's wrath, would make the wrath that Jesus suffered as though He had not. It would in fact be like a double payment, once by Jesus and once by the church.
Yes, you are correct, the word "Ekklesia/church" doesn't appear again until Rev.22:16, which is not supporting your cause. In Chapters 1 thru 3 the word "church" is used 18 times. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "Hagios/Saints." Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, you no longer see the word "Ekklesia/Church" mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath, but outside of it, which you and others ignore. The fact that the word "church" is absent during the narrative of God's wrath and only shows up at the end of the closing of Revelation supports what we have been telling you.
As I said, the gathering of the church takes place at Rev.4:1-2 where that voice that sounds like a trumpet says "come up here." It is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church, which God obviously put there for those who recognize it as a prophetic clue and which you obviously can't see.
On the contrary, you try again!
As I said, the gathering of the church takes place at Rev.4:1-2 where that voice that sounds like a trumpet says "come up here." It is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church, which God obviously put there for those who recognize it as a prophetic clue and which you obviously can't see.
On the contrary, you try again!
Last edited:
Hey Nehemiah6,
These people who claim that the church is going to go through God's wrath, are a disgrace to the Lord in my opinion. Reason being, is that in one breath they say "Jesus is our salvation." But at the same time, they don't recognize that Jesus took upon Himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. For if they did believe that, they wouldn't be claiming that the church is going to go through His wrath. Further more, to make this claim they also don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. Then they do their little circumvention by renaming God's wrath to man's or Satan's tribulation.
My feelings regarding those who are not believing in the Lord's promise to keep us out of that hour of trial is that, let it be according to their faith. If they believe that they will go through God's wrath, then let it be according to what they believe. As it is, they are circumventing and distorting the word of God. Instead of looking for the "Blessed Hope, the appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" they are looking to go through His wrath and be gathered when He returns to the earth to end the age. They ought to take a look to see who is following Him out of heaven riding on white horses.
These people are frustrating if anything!
These people who claim that the church is going to go through God's wrath, are a disgrace to the Lord in my opinion. Reason being, is that in one breath they say "Jesus is our salvation." But at the same time, they don't recognize that Jesus took upon Himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. For if they did believe that, they wouldn't be claiming that the church is going to go through His wrath. Further more, to make this claim they also don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. Then they do their little circumvention by renaming God's wrath to man's or Satan's tribulation.
My feelings regarding those who are not believing in the Lord's promise to keep us out of that hour of trial is that, let it be according to their faith. If they believe that they will go through God's wrath, then let it be according to what they believe. As it is, they are circumventing and distorting the word of God. Instead of looking for the "Blessed Hope, the appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" they are looking to go through His wrath and be gathered when He returns to the earth to end the age. They ought to take a look to see who is following Him out of heaven riding on white horses.
These people are frustrating if anything!
There are a number of books in the NT where the word Church is not used once. Do we conclude that the Church was raptured while they were written? The reason the word Church is not used after chapter four in Revelation is because the seven letters were written to seven different congregations and had different messages for each one. After those messages the rest of Revelation is meant for all seven of them together. It saves John having to write the same material seven times for each Church.
Last edited:
Irrelevant Tanahk!
This is specific to Revelation and the distinction is being made by the obvious use of the word "Church" throughout chapters 1 thru 3 in conjunction with the absence or disuse of the word within the narrative of God's wrath, with the church being gathered at 4:1-2 and God's wrath beginning in chapter 6, with Jesus as the One opening the seals.
This is just another weak attempt as ignoring and distorting the fact that the abrupt disuse of the word "church" is demonstrating that the church is no longer on the earth from Chapter 4 onward. Furthermore, the church/bride is already seen in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen and are then seen following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen (Rev.19:6-8,14)
This is specific to Revelation and the distinction is being made by the obvious use of the word "Church" throughout chapters 1 thru 3 in conjunction with the absence or disuse of the word within the narrative of God's wrath, with the church being gathered at 4:1-2 and God's wrath beginning in chapter 6, with Jesus as the One opening the seals.
This is just another weak attempt as ignoring and distorting the fact that the abrupt disuse of the word "church" is demonstrating that the church is no longer on the earth from Chapter 4 onward. Furthermore, the church/bride is already seen in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen and are then seen following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen (Rev.19:6-8,14)
The Devil and the Rapture +++ If I were the devil I would be against the Rapture. It's not fair because he has waited to kill multitudes of Christians (The Church). He is mad because the Word says the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. He has tried to raise up his "man" in the past and failed (like Hitler)----just to much salt and light in the Earth. He has to wait for the Church to be removed for it restrains him. The End Time Church was promised (Philidelphia) to escape the Great Tribulation. He is hopeful for the few who are apostates and are cast into Great Tribulation (letter to 7 Churches). He wants to erase the Words of Jesus that say to pray always that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these problems coming upon the Earth. He can only hope we neglect so great Salvation and do not need His Words...
The beginning is addressed to the church and the conclusion is also addressed to the church - it follows that everything else between the beginning and the conclusion is for the church and there's no single allusion of rapture in there:
Rev 4:1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this...
John was told to go up, he was in the spirit and his body was on earth. The earth is a globe and heaven is not a physical place where; when God says "..come up here..", where does the person down south go, and one on the north pole go?
Rev 4:1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this...
John was told to go up, he was in the spirit and his body was on earth. The earth is a globe and heaven is not a physical place where; when God says "..come up here..", where does the person down south go, and one on the north pole go?
This is the main verse that is misunderstood by those advocating for rapture and i have already questioned the promise given to them "...And so we will always be with the Lord....". We don't see them with the Lord during the millennial rule.
This brings me to the next question: when does this event happen? i don't dispute the event but i know it happens in the very end (second resurrection). Even Paul says "..the very last trump...", there's no single indication pointing to some pretrib rapture or mid trib rapture- Zero evidence, just a wish.
The word's 'being caught in the clouds' doesn't mean physically flying off, they have a spiritual meaning. We know the clouds of heaven is symbolic of glory and power of heaven - the reason that 'the son of man coming with the clouds' is used interchangeably with the 'kingdom of God coming with power and glory' or 'the son of man coming with power and glory'
None of these is physical and this could be the reason the angel insisted that the return of the Lord would be similar to His ascension because He disappeared in the clouds from their sight- meaning that He was changed into a glorified/heavenly body.
Even so, being caught in the clouds could mean being changed to glorified bodies only.
Let's look it from a different angle, when the Lord said ".. pray that your flight may not be during winter..." what did He actually mean because winter is only on earth. He was actually talking about rapture, right? how does winter affect rapture? explain 20mrks
This brings me to the next question: when does this event happen? i don't dispute the event but i know it happens in the very end (second resurrection). Even Paul says "..the very last trump...", there's no single indication pointing to some pretrib rapture or mid trib rapture- Zero evidence, just a wish.
The word's 'being caught in the clouds' doesn't mean physically flying off, they have a spiritual meaning. We know the clouds of heaven is symbolic of glory and power of heaven - the reason that 'the son of man coming with the clouds' is used interchangeably with the 'kingdom of God coming with power and glory' or 'the son of man coming with power and glory'
None of these is physical and this could be the reason the angel insisted that the return of the Lord would be similar to His ascension because He disappeared in the clouds from their sight- meaning that He was changed into a glorified/heavenly body.
Even so, being caught in the clouds could mean being changed to glorified bodies only.
Let's look it from a different angle, when the Lord said ".. pray that your flight may not be during winter..." what did He actually mean because winter is only on earth. He was actually talking about rapture, right? how does winter affect rapture? explain 20mrks
Last edited:
Yeah, well then, explain why the word "Ekklesia/church" is abruptly missing from the entire narrative of the events of wrath. As I said, the mention of the church in Rev.22:16 is outside of the narrative of God's wrath at the closing of the book. It is addressed to the church because we are the one's who are to proclaim the information within the book of Revelation.
Oh it's there, you just can't see it, because you are against it. There is a veil over your eyes. I see it, Nehemiah6 sees it, and many others see it and understand it. The "voice that sounds like a trumpet" is synonymous with "the trumpet of God" found in Paul's detailed account of the church being "caught up" in I Thes.4:16.
In the same way that God will resurrect the dead in Christ from all over the world to where He descends. He will also change the living in Christ all over the globe, meeting those who will have just resurrected, with the entire group meeting the Lord in the air. Then according to John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. Why would you think that gathering everyone world-wide would be a difficult thing for God to do?
The above is a prophet allusion to the gathering of the church, with John standing in for the church. Obviously the Lord has not revealed this to everyone. John being told to write "what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later" divdes Revelation into three phases:
What you have seen = Everything that John saw and wrote from Rev.1:1 - 1:19
What is now = Represented by letters to the churches, which also represents the entire church period
What will take place later = What will take place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period.
The "what must take place after this" is synonymous with the "what must take place later" in Rev.1:19, which is everything that takes place after the "what is now" i.e. everything that happens after the church period has completed and which is why the church is never mentioned after the end of chapter 3 or anywhere within the narrative of God's wrath.
Last edited:
First of all, there is no misunderstanding, only in your own mind. Regarding the millennial reign of Christ, those in the church who overcome are promised the following:
"And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery—just as I have received authority from My Father."
The above promise is in reference to those in the church who overcome who will rule over the nations during the millennial reign of Christ. In addition to the above, we also have the following:
"Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God's holy people.)"
"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."
So, in Rev.6-8, we see the bride/church already in heaven present at the wedding of the Lamb. There, she is receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, as Jesus is returning to the earth to end the age, His bride, the church, is seen following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that she was previously given at the wedding of the Lamb.
The previously resurrected and caught up church, also referred to as the Lord's "called, chosen and faithful follwers" are seen returning with Christ as He returns to the earth to end the age, as can be seen in the following:
"They (the ten kings and the beast) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Obviously, scriptures shows the bride/church already being in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and shows her following behind the Lord riding on white horses as He returns to the earth to end the age.
The church will be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.
Last edited:
My explanation is only irrelevant to a Pre Tribber. The letters as I explained contain messages from Christ that are specific to individual churches. The rest of the book is meant to be read by all of them. If the Church is absent why bother to send it to seven of them when Christ could have just stopped at the letters. Paul had already written about Christs return years before
so how would all this additional information be of any use to them or to us come to that if we all disappear before the tribulation starts
so how would all this additional information be of any use to them or to us come to that if we all disappear before the tribulation starts