Preparation for the Last Days
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It didn't take very long for the preterist to hijack this thread. My two-cents worth: There is no pre-trib rapture. Christ will come back and take over this worlds kingdoms. Nobody has gone to heaven, nobody will go to heaven. Heaven (the Kingdom of) will come here.
1 Thes. 4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 Thes. 4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Revelation 12 begins with:
"A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth." (Revelations 12:1)I see this as a symbolic sign and a playing out of salvation history that John saw in this vision, without a clear reference to chronological events. I agree with Noose and RickyZ that the tribulation started when Jesus ascended, and the events of Revelation will just be more intensified.
I also see Revelation 12 as a symbolic sign which is clearly referring to Mary the mother of Jesus and to the attempts of the devil through the Roman king Herod to stop the King of the Jews who had just been born. But an angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and warned Him to take Mary and Jesus to the wilderness in Egypt.
"The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days." (Revelation 12 4:7; NIV).
Obviously, the demonic hoard failed to stop the birth of Christ or to put Jesus to death, and Mary Joseph and Jesus fled safely to Egypt.
I see a symbolic confirmation of these events in 1986 in America--the Shuttle Challenger with a teacher on board having a female-form of the name of Jesus-- "Christa," who symbolically represented Christ and Mary, both of whom the demons viciously pursued with intense hatred, since they represented their defeat. The serpent tried to destroy the woman who represented the power of Christ, symbolically, by destroying the vessel, but the serpent himself was cast down, which is also what happened when the demons tried to destroy the power of Christ on the Cross. They were defeated by the same Jesus and the same Cross by their own hands in trying to destroy the vessel of humanity represented by the Divine incarnation of the birth of Christ. The lady in this case represents Christ who was killed by the Jews and Romans, but who rose from the dead. **Note: these pictures are copyrighted and belong to the owners indicated)
Symbolic of this in 1986 is the Voyager Aircraft that followed the Shuttle event where a woman--the co-pilot of the plane--
"was given two great wings of an eagle" (Rev. 12:14; NIV)
"The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach." (Revelation 12:14; NIV).
As far as this next Revelation prophecy is concerned, I can testify personally that as a messenger of God, like all Christians,
"who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus," (Children of God--sons and daughters) I was pursued by that "enraged dragon," probably like a lot of people at that time, through intense spiritual warfare where this son ended up in depression recovery and long-term (many years) of rehab. I would call that tribulation--
"Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus." (Revelation 12:17; NIV)
"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." (Revelation 12:11; NIV)
("word of their testimony" is what we do with our lives)
If you notice, Revelation 12:11 is before the battles described after that--
We go into a battle that is already won--
If we rely on God's power and salvation, going "full-speed ahead..."
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+++End Time Harvest The letter to the 7-Churches in Revelation has only two Churches without correction. The persecuted Church Sardis and the End Time Harvest Church Philidelphia which was also promised to escape the Great Tribulation. As we enter this End Time Harvest their will be persecution. When Christ returns He will find some abusing God's people and some living careless lives. The good news is we can enter this Harvest. The bad news is many are not seeking God's purpose for their lives...
Greetings 88,
Just fyi, though the information to keep to keep us out of the hour of trial was written in the letter to Philadelphia, the promise is to every believer who endures patiently. In fact, all the promises made within every letter is to every believer who overcomes. That's why Jesus told John to:
"Write in a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”
All of the letters were read in each of the churches and are directed to all believers throughout the entire church period, with all of the promises and rebukes to be applied to all believers. To be clear, the promise in the letter to Thyatira to give authority over the nations is not just a promise to Thyatira, but to everyone who also overcomes within the other churches and every believer throughout the church period who does the same.
The letters represent types of churches and individuals within those church with those characteristics which can be found in every generation. Regarding this, John was told to write the followings:
What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to 1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the churches, which represent the church period
What will take place later = What takes place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period
This is why we don't see the word "church" used anymore after the end of chapter 3 of Revelation and that because Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the church being gathered.
Just fyi, though the information to keep to keep us out of the hour of trial was written in the letter to Philadelphia, the promise is to every believer who endures patiently. In fact, all the promises made within every letter is to every believer who overcomes. That's why Jesus told John to:
"Write in a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”
All of the letters were read in each of the churches and are directed to all believers throughout the entire church period, with all of the promises and rebukes to be applied to all believers. To be clear, the promise in the letter to Thyatira to give authority over the nations is not just a promise to Thyatira, but to everyone who also overcomes within the other churches and every believer throughout the church period who does the same.
The letters represent types of churches and individuals within those church with those characteristics which can be found in every generation. Regarding this, John was told to write the followings:
What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to 1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the churches, which represent the church period
What will take place later = What takes place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period
This is why we don't see the word "church" used anymore after the end of chapter 3 of Revelation and that because Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the church being gathered.
The human brain is a marvellous computer. It gathers information and where there are gaps, it builds bridges creating an over confidence or arrogance about how correct we are. We are supposed to be the body of Christ, not the Brain. The body can receive stimuli, and send messages to the brain but it’s function is reactive to the will of the brain. The Holy Spirit is the nervous system delivering these impulses.
Understanding is limited to our knowledge and experiences. Since none of us have perfect knowledge we only get a glimpse of the whole picture. Instead of accepting this, we choose to formulate a preconception of what we think this picture should look like then the brain goes to work. It moves the pieces of information around to best fit the image of our choosing then fills the gaps. Everyone wants to be a teacher and nobody wants to be a student. What is good about children is their slates are “cleaner”. They are impressionable. We at CC should be more like these children. Immediately when somebody makes a statement foreign or in opposition to our preconceptions we try to Trump them, “WRONG! WRONG!” instead of hear them out and see if there is validation to their opinion. At the very least back track their train of thought and see where they (or maybe you) went off the rails. From what I have seen CC has many intelligent, devoted followers, earnest at finding truth. We should be trying to solve these mysteries as a mastermind, each contributing, collectively constructing a fact based picture.
When I read Revelations, based on my acquired knowledge, I get a very different image. Maybe it’s right, maybe it’s my imagination but that’s all any of us have. When Christ sent out some disciples, he declared the harvest was ripe. To me this just means they were like sheep without a shepherd, ready to follow someone. By pointing to the Great Shepherd, they “harvested” those lost people. As the end draws near, belief in a Creator, A Saviour, or any type of deity is unpopularized. This is part of the great falling away. In the wake of modernism, there will be again many sheep (people are exactly like sheep, needing to follow an Alpha) without a shepherd and this is how the Antichrist will gain authority and fame. Although the angels are labeled harvesters, it doesn’t negate the OPs point that we should be identifying that the fields are again ripe and should be pointing to Christ in attempt to gather the lost.
Side note: I think the parable of the wheat and tares refered to leaders not followers. If there were some followers who came to Christ by way of a false teacher (and many do), if that teacher was “weeded” prematurely then that follower, and many others may lose their way. The apostates, deliberate antichrists are the tares.
Understanding is limited to our knowledge and experiences. Since none of us have perfect knowledge we only get a glimpse of the whole picture. Instead of accepting this, we choose to formulate a preconception of what we think this picture should look like then the brain goes to work. It moves the pieces of information around to best fit the image of our choosing then fills the gaps. Everyone wants to be a teacher and nobody wants to be a student. What is good about children is their slates are “cleaner”. They are impressionable. We at CC should be more like these children. Immediately when somebody makes a statement foreign or in opposition to our preconceptions we try to Trump them, “WRONG! WRONG!” instead of hear them out and see if there is validation to their opinion. At the very least back track their train of thought and see where they (or maybe you) went off the rails. From what I have seen CC has many intelligent, devoted followers, earnest at finding truth. We should be trying to solve these mysteries as a mastermind, each contributing, collectively constructing a fact based picture.
When I read Revelations, based on my acquired knowledge, I get a very different image. Maybe it’s right, maybe it’s my imagination but that’s all any of us have. When Christ sent out some disciples, he declared the harvest was ripe. To me this just means they were like sheep without a shepherd, ready to follow someone. By pointing to the Great Shepherd, they “harvested” those lost people. As the end draws near, belief in a Creator, A Saviour, or any type of deity is unpopularized. This is part of the great falling away. In the wake of modernism, there will be again many sheep (people are exactly like sheep, needing to follow an Alpha) without a shepherd and this is how the Antichrist will gain authority and fame. Although the angels are labeled harvesters, it doesn’t negate the OPs point that we should be identifying that the fields are again ripe and should be pointing to Christ in attempt to gather the lost.
Side note: I think the parable of the wheat and tares refered to leaders not followers. If there were some followers who came to Christ by way of a false teacher (and many do), if that teacher was “weeded” prematurely then that follower, and many others may lose their way. The apostates, deliberate antichrists are the tares.
Brother we have been in the last days for almost 2000 years and the first 100-200 years we did have a revival of souls coming into the kingdom of God, with 3000 souls being added to the Church on the fiftieth day from Christ's suffering, crucifixion, death and resurrection. So I am not sure of what revival you are speaking of since we've seen that what you are saying did take place and was recorded in the book of Acts.
End Time Harvest +++We are entering the greatest Harvest in Church history----you can be part of it through prayer, giving, and witnessing. The Bible School attended in the 80's put up a big poster declaring It's Harvest Time. More souls have been saved in the Last 30 years than all 1900 years before it. What was witnessed by the Apostles in the first century will be matched and surpassed.
Salvation first came to the Jews, right? Historically, Israel was God's chosen people, His "bride." They rejected Him repeatedly and they rejected His Son. Thus judgment came to Israel all at once in 70 AD at the conclusion of that age (the Law/Mosaic Age). The wicked Jews alive were gathered into one basket - Jerusalem and slaughtered there during the great tribulation. The righteous Jews were spared and they fled to Pella (gathered into the barn). Thus God passed judgment on His people.
The new age (Messianic) began and we are in that age now. Salvation is for everyone who accepts Jesus. As you pointed out in Mat 12 and in Heb 6, there was to be an "age to come" and we are in that age now. Some call it the Millennium without realizing we are already in it. Others call our age, "the new age." Regardless, Heb 9:27 makes clear, we get our judgment individually upon death.
The new age (Messianic) began and we are in that age now. Salvation is for everyone who accepts Jesus. As you pointed out in Mat 12 and in Heb 6, there was to be an "age to come" and we are in that age now. Some call it the Millennium without realizing we are already in it. Others call our age, "the new age." Regardless, Heb 9:27 makes clear, we get our judgment individually upon death.
Was there a "falling away" of Jewish people in Jerusalem before Titus was revealed? They were getting paid to offer sacrifices to Rome in the temple. People were paying money to be priests who were not of Levi. The tyrants slaughtered priests and the people in the temple. They burned the food supply and slaughtered their own countrymen. They dressed up as priests too and ate with the sacred temple utensils and drank wine from the holy cups. They turned the temple into a fort and carried out raids into the city, raping, killing and stealing from the people. They dressed up as women and had gay orgies in the temple. Many claimed to be the Messiah and led people astray promising freedom which resulted in death for those who followed these false prophets. So I ask again, could this be considered a falling away of the Jewish people (to be punished) before Titus appeared and was worshipped in the temple?
If so, where is it stated that there will be another falling away, another man of sin and another temple?
If so, where is it stated that there will be another falling away, another man of sin and another temple?