Do We Have To Keep The Law?

[Ralph-]

So Ralphie, are we saved by observing the commandments/works of the law or by grace through faith as a free gift, because it can't be both.

No, we are not saved (justified) by observing the commandments. We keep the commandments because we are saved-1 John 3:24.

You left out the rest of the context of why the Lord will say "Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." Below is the entire context:

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness"

These people will stand before Christ with lots of evidence of ministry for Christ but no lawful obedience to Christ's commands. Their disobedience to the commands of Christ is the evidence that they do not know Christ.

Working in ministry is not the evidence that you know Christ in salvation, but so many people in the church think so and take false comfort in that. They work hard in their church's programs, give the church money, lead Bible studies, freely and loudly talk about the grace of God.......then go home to their lawless, immoral lives. These are the people Christ is talking about in Matthew 7.

Ministry service for Christ is not what makes you lawful or unlawful either way. Your personal life is what determines if you are among the lawless who do not know Christ or among the lawful who do. Ministry service for Christ is hardly a measure of whether or not you know Christ in salvation. Your personal life is.

Christians take false comfort in thinking that since they are not trying to be justified by their work in the church, or any work, that they won't be among the people Christ will turn away when he returns, not knowing that their immoral lawless lives are what is going to condemn them as unbelievers on the day Christ returns.

Not being under the law, does not mean being lawless i.e. free reign to sin. This is why you guys continue to misunderstand this concept.

Law keepers are not the one's who misunderstand. They know that not being under the law means, among other things, now having the power to uphold the law (read Romans 7).

But the church at large thinks not being under the law means being released from the responsibility to obey the commandments (yes, we know there are laws that we simply do not have to literally keep anymore). Simple observation shows this to be the case. Especially now with the rise of freegrace/hypergrace doctrine in the church that teaches that the believer can even go back to a blatant, unbelieving denial of Christ and they will still be saved when Jesus comes back.

 

[Ralph-]

You really are following a man-made doctrine.

I'm not dogmatic about it, but if you read 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 you can see that Paul is differentiating between how the Jews relate to God (in the way of the law of God/Moses) and how the gentiles relate to God (in the way of the law of Christ).

When ministering to Jews he becomes as one who observes the ceremonial law of Moses, because that's what Jews do. When ministering to the gentiles he becomes as one who does not observe the ceremonial law, for the gentiles do not do that. So you can see that the law of Christ he is under among the gentiles is the law of Moses minus the ceremonial laws. Why does he call the law he is under when among the gentiles the law of Christ? Because Jesus doesn't need the ceremonial law to be right with God, he is without sin. His law is like the gentiles who don't have the ceremonial law of Moses.

Do you mind sharing your church's name? I'd like to do some research on it.

The Church of The Enlightened Ones.
Kidding, lol. That's a private joke.

I don't attend a church at the moment. I don't expect to any time soon either. I'm tired of the spiritless pollution and worldliness overtaking the church. I try to endure it but I can't. So I stay home and have given up on finding a church that actually reads the Bible and isn't in the grip of godless traditions and the latest fads that they think are from God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't understand what your believe.

A. You believe we able to keep the law of Jesus all time, like never commit adultery in our heart, never lust when look pretty woman, always give left cheek when one slapped right cheek, etc

B. Or you believe we do sin, not always keep the law of Jesus, as long as we acknowledge it make us blameless. In othe word, it is ok to kill, robe the bank, etc as long as we know it is sin, than we are ok.

C. Remain holy, but when we defile ourselves take appropriate measures to cleanse the defilement.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I wonder how many of the Bible " experts " on here have ever studied the council of nicea, why it was called, the main issue they met over, how the Bible came into being...

Doesn't matter. Anyone who doesn't recognize that Rome began to pervert the faith once delivered to the saints two or three centuries after Christ isn't paying attention.

 

[gotime]

Anything that God does for us is Grace. Keeping the law is only against grace if it is something you do to earn salvation etc. But if someone keeps the law because God has transformed the heart then that is grace.

Paul starts his systematic presentation of the Gospel be making it clear that we will be judged on what we do. And only those who obey the law will be justified.

So obviously being that Paul says that and we also know that Paul says we are saved by grace through Faith. We are left with only one possible scenario.

Gods Grace is transforming. Making us law abiding citizens. Read Romans 2 its all there.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'm not dogmatic about it, but if you read 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 you can see that Paul is differentiating between how the Jews relate to God (in the way of the law of God/Moses) and how the gentiles relate to God (in the way of the law of Christ).

When ministering to Jews he becomes as one who observes the ceremonial law of Moses, because that's what Jews do. When ministering to the gentiles he becomes as one who does not observe the ceremonial law, for the gentiles do not do that. So you can see that the law of Christ he is under among the gentiles is the law of Moses minus the ceremonial laws. Why does he call the law he is under when among the gentiles the law of Christ? Because Jesus doesn't need the ceremonial law to be right with God, he is without sin. His law is like the gentiles who don't have the ceremonial law of Moses.

Christ didn't need any of the law to be right with GOD because the law was made for the lawless, which he never was.

It's good that you're not dogmatic about the issue because separation of the law into different parts started with the church fathers, who you disparage for other things. Are you ex-catholic by chance? That seems to be the doctrine they follow.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Christ didn't need any of the law to be right with GOD because the law was made for the lawless, which he never was.

It's good that you're not dogmatic about the issue because separation of the law into different parts started with the church fathers, who you disparage for other things. Are you ex-catholic by chance? That seems to be the doctrine they follow.

As an example of how church fathers perverted the issue, look at how blindingly bad Irenaeus got it. First, he mischaracterizes the giving of the law, and then horribly misinterprets Ezekiel 20:24–25 as justification for his error of dividing the law into 2 parts. He actually thought that GOD gave Israel judgments and statutes that were not good and in which they should not live. But what GOD said in those verses is that because Israel disobeyed his law he would turn them over to other countries where they would have to live by their laws which were not good and in which they should not live.

As Moses says in Deuteronomy, “These are all the words which the Lord spake to the whole assembly of the sons of Israel on the mount, and He added no more; and He wrote them on two tables of stone, and gave them to me.” [Deut. 5:22] For this reason (He did so), that they who are willing to follow Him might keep these commandments. But when they turned themselves to make a calf, and had gone back in their minds to Egypt, desiring to be slaves instead of free-men, they were placed for the future in a state of servitude suited to their wish,—(a slavery) which did not indeed cut them off from God, but subjected them to the yoke of bondage; as Ezekiel the prophet, when stating the reasons for the giving of such a law, declares: “And their eyes were after the desire of their heart; and I gave them statutes that were not good, and judgments in which they shall not live.” [Ezek. 20:24–25]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do we have to keep the law?

Yes.

Absolutely.

We must keep the law...

of Christ

Any questions?

what happens if we fail to keep it 24/7 - 365?

 

[lightbearer]

'But we don't do it to gain salvation...'

Then why do you do it? Why don't we focus more on what gains us salvation and less on what gives us "extra credit" or whatever reason you do the extra stuff.

Christians can't help themselves. For GOD has said, I will put my Laws in their hearts and write them in their minds. Declared to be the epistle of Christ.... written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God. So Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (HIS Word; the Law) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ; HIS LAW) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart (that we do it): that is, the word of faith, which we preach. Christ in us the hope of glory. A new and living Way; the Veil; that is to say His flesh; the Body of Christ; the Temple of GOD. For it is HE that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the (engrafted) word (that which is in our hearts and minds), and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
(Heb 8:10; 2Co 3:3-5; Rom 10:6-8; Jas 1:21-22)

 

[mailmandan]

Where have I mentioned salvation???

That is another excuse of the legalist and judaizer.

'But we don't do it to gain salvation...'

Then why do you do it? Why don't we focus more on what gains us salvation and less on what gives us "extra credit" or whatever reason you do the extra stuff.

Certain people have made it crystal clear why they do it.

Quote Originally Posted by LoveGodForever

What is the other Gospel?

It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. The counterfeit Gospel is out there. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation.

God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Christians can't help themselves. For GOD has said, I will put my Laws in their hearts and write them in their minds. Declared to be the epistle of Christ.... written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God. So Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (HIS Word; the Law) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ; HIS LAW) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart (that we do it): that is, the word of faith, which we preach. Christ in us the hope of glory. A new and living Way; the Veil; that is to say His flesh; the Body of Christ; the Temple of GOD. For it is HE that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the (engrafted) word (that which is in our hearts and minds), and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
(Heb 8:10; 2Co 3:3-5; Rom 10:6-8; Jas 1:21-22)

would that be gods law (the law of christ) or moses law (the law given to Israel)? Given for the purpose of bringing israel to knowledge if their,savior when he came, yet they failed to properly interpret the m animg of the law (like many christians do) and when their messiah came, they did not recognize him?

 

[Studyman]

what happens if we fail to keep it 24/7 - 365?

I think that would depend on the reason for failing.

If we were being tested by God through a trial and fell, or are young and learning to "walk as He walked" well that is how all humans learn how to walk. Even Jesus had to learn obedience.

Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

But if we break them because some religious franchise owner decided to create a religion with traditions and doctrines that cause all those who follow it to "Transgress the Commandments of God" though these religious traditions, that is another story all together.

Paul said that is what the Mainstream Preachers of his time did.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Maybe these preachers taught that God created instructions so egregious, so burdensome, so many in number that is was impossible to follow them, then when men failed to follow them, this same God killed them for not following Laws impossible to follow.. Making the old testament God an unjust, cruel and imperfect God. So they are left with creating their own laws and Sabbath, their own religious celebrations with their own "image" of God created in the likeness of man, who came to save them, not from their own rebellion and disobedience (Sin) as it is written, but to save them from the unjust God they created in their own mind..


23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

One is slipping and falling which all children do as they learn, and God is a Perfect Father and is faithful to His Children to help them.

The other is different. The other is "Practicing iniquity" because they don't trust the God of the Bible enough to follow His instructions and have chosen to create their own more suitable to the imaginations of their own mind, all in the name of Jesus of course.

I think this is an important distinction.

 

[Studyman]

would that be gods law (the law of christ) or moses law (the law given to Israel)? Given for the purpose of bringing israel to knowledge if their,savior when he came, yet they failed to properly interpret the m animg of the law (like many christians do) and when their messiah came, they did not recognize him?

Zechariahs and the Wise Men knew Jesus. Why did Zechariahs the Priest know Jesus when He came and the Pharisees didn't?

This answer is in the Bible.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

He knew Jesus when He came.

Here is how Jesus spoke of the Pharisees who were also Priests.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (NOT GOD)

So the Jew who listened to God and respected Him with trust and obedience knew Jesus.

But the Jew who created their own instructions and didn't follow or teach the Word's of God didn't know Jesus.

I think this is a significant biblical reality that Christians should understand.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think that would depend on the reason for failing.

If we were being tested by God through a trial and fell, or are young and learning to "walk as He walked" well that is how all humans learn how to walk. Even Jesus had to learn obedience.

Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

But if we break them because some religious franchise owner decided to create a religion with traditions and doctrines that cause all those who follow it to "Transgress the Commandments of God" though these religious traditions, that is another story all together.

Paul said that is what the Mainstream Preachers of his time did.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Maybe these preachers taught that God created instructions so egregious, so burdensome, so many in number that is was impossible to follow them, then when men failed to follow them, this same God killed them for not following Laws impossible to follow.. Making the old testament God an unjust, cruel and imperfect God. So they are left with creating their own laws and Sabbath, their own religious celebrations with their own "image" of God created in the likeness of man, who came to save them, not from their own rebellion and disobedience (Sin) as it is written, but to save them from the unjust God they created in their own mind..


23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

One is slipping and falling which all children do as they learn, and God is a Perfect Father and is faithful to His Children to help them.

The other is different. The other is "Practicing iniquity" because they don't trust the God of the Bible enough to follow His instructions and have chosen to create their own more suitable to the imaginations of their own mind, all in the name of Jesus of course.

I think this is an important distinction.

So basically, we can excuse sin depending on what the reason was? That sounds an awful lot like what the pharisees would do, justify that their sin was ok, while others people sin was not ok.

sin is sin is sin, lets not justify or excuse our sin away, the penalty of sin is death, it does not say the penaly of these sins, or sins done for this reason is death.

James said we can keep the whole law yet stumble in one point we are guilty of all, he did not give excuses and say if you stumbled because of this its ok, he said your guilty.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Zechariahs and the Wise Men knew Jesus. Why did Zechariahs the Priest know Jesus when He came and the Pharisees didn't?

This answer is in the Bible.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

He knew Jesus when He came.

Here is how Jesus spoke of the Pharisees who were also Priests.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (NOT GOD)

So the Jew who listened to God and respected Him with trust and obedience knew Jesus.

But the Jew who created their own instructions and didn't follow or teach the Word's of God didn't know Jesus.

I think this is a significant biblical reality that Christians should understand.

The people who rejected him did so because they failed to properly interpret the mosaic law. Thats why they were so quick to pervert the gospel in Galatia. And paul had to tell them the law was a tutor to lead to christ.

If they trusted and properly interpreted the purpose of the law to begin with they never would have added laws, they added to try to make it harder to break real laws.

 

[Studyman]

So basically, we can excuse sin depending on what the reason was? That sounds an awful lot like what the pharisees would do, justify that their sin was ok, while others people sin was not ok.

sin is sin is sin, lets not justify or excuse our sin away, the penalty of sin is death, it does not say the penaly of these sins, or sins done for this reason is death.

James said we can keep the whole law yet stumble in one point we are guilty of all, he did not give excuses and say if you stumbled because of this its ok, he said your guilty.

I think you are missing the point of my post.

I didn't imply, say or even suggest that those who sin are not guilty. I said a faithful Father knows we are human and knows we will slip and fall and is there to pick us back up. (forgive)

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I was pointing out the difference between "Growing in the knowledge of God" and "teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of Men".

You preach there is no difference? I disagree.

 

[Studyman]

The people who rejected him did so because they failed to properly interpret the mosaic law. Thats why they were so quick to pervert the gospel in Galatia. And paul had to tell them the law was a tutor to lead to christ.

If they trusted and properly interpreted the purpose of the law to begin with they never would have added laws, they added to try to make it harder to break real laws.

I agree that if they had Trusted God like Zechariahs did they would have followed His instructions like him and Jesus and Paul, instead of creating their own.

And they were indeed still perverting the Word of the Christ to the Galatians.

I'm curious:

they added to try to make it harder to break real laws.

I know you preach this, I have tried to find it's origin. Can you show me where this is written?


Zechariahs knew to "

properly interpret the mosaic law"

How???? What was the main difference, according to the Bible, between Zechariahs and the Pharisees?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think you are missing the point of my post.

I didn't imply, say or even suggest that those who sin are not guilty. I said a faithful Father knows we are human and knows we will slip and fall and is there to pick us back up. (forgive)

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I was pointing out the difference between "Growing in the knowledge of God" and "teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of Men".

You preach there is no difference? I disagree.

Sin is sin is sin.

there are no differences,

 

[gb9]

I agree that if they had Trusted God like Zechariahs did they would have followed His instructions like him and Jesus and Paul, instead of creating their own.

And they were indeed still perverting the Word of the Christ to the Galatians.

I'm curious:



I know you preach this, I have tried to find it's origin. Can you show me where this is written?


Zechariahs knew to " How???? What was the main difference, according to the Bible, between Zechariahs and the Pharisees?

the Pharisees came into being during the 400 " silent " years. there is no Biblical story of them, their history.

so, you have told me in the past that you do not care about historians or scholars, they are the ones who give us the story of how the Pharisees came to be.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And they were indeed still perverting the Word of the Christ to the Galatians.

Indeed.

But some of those who had believed from the party of the Pharisees stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to command [them] to observe the law of Moses!” Acts 15:5

Now [this was] because of the false brothers secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, in order that they might enslave us, to whom not even for an hour did we yield in subjection, in order that the truth of the gospel might remain continually with you. Galatians 2:4-5​