The Rapture

[Endoscopy]

Hello again GandieM,

I know that there is and has been on-going controversy about the timing of when the church is gathered, but those who are in Christ will not be on the earth to experience God's wrath, which will be fulfilled via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and whatever plagues the two witnesses bring upon the earth.

Regarding this, Jesus experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. But as for the unbeliever, God's wrath still rests upon them - John 3:36. Below are some of the promises that we will not be exposed to the time of God's wrath:

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." 1 Thes.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thes.5:9

" Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" - Rom.5:9

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10


We have those who believe that the church is going to be on this earth protected during the time of God's wrath. The error in this is not understanding the severity and magnitude of that time of wrath. To give you an example, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third, respectively, the total fatalities will equal over half the earth's population and that is just during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor the fatalities from the bowl judgments. Regarding this time of wrath Jesus said, "if those days had been allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive upon the earth.

In addition to the reasons above, from chapters 1 thru 3 in the book of Revelation, only the word Ekklesia translated Church is used. In those same chapters you will not find the word Hagios translated as Saints. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, you will never see the word Ekklesia/church again. The word church is never used within the narrative of God's wrath.

Regarding this, in John 14:1-3, Jesus promised His disciples and therefore all believers, that He was going to the Father's house to prepare dwelling places for us and that He would be coming back to gather us and to take us back to the Father's house. Needless to say, it would not be much of a promise to look forward to if the Lord was to gather us after His wrath had been poured out. Not only that, but God would be punishing the righteous with the wicked, which God does not do.

Also, Paul referred to the church being gathered as the "Blessed Hope" and that we should comfort one another with this hope. It would not be much of a blessed hope, nor could we comfort one another if in fact we were to also be exposed to God's wrath.

The Lord is going to remove His church prior to this time which Jesus referred to as "a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again."

The only groups who will be here during the time of God's wrath will be the nation Israel, the 144,000 for the first 3 1/2, the great tribulation saints, who will be those who will receive Christ after the church has been gathered. And of course all unbelievers who will have continued to reject Christ and who continue to live according to the sinful nature.

Just been going through Revelation again. It is amazing even after the 2 witnesses of God are raised from the dead after 3 1/2 days and taken up to heaven people still reject God. The whole earth will watch this with the instant communications of today and still reject God. It proves the Bible saying the carnal mind is enmity against God. I see that on a secular forum. I use science to prove the big bang evolution theory fails 5 scientific laws Also the old earth concept fails due to C14 in diamonds and other problems with old age earth. They ignore it and never reply when I ask them to explain away the science. I use that site to talk about God and Jesus. Archaeology proves the Sodom and Jericho stories 100% accurate just like digs in all other Biblical sites proving Genesis is completely accurate in its history. No other history has this accuracy.

I get a lot of this information from the science based international organization Christian Ministries International on creation.com.

 

[Locutus]

Still at it I see PL - I gave up on this a while back, very hard to re-educate errortics..

 

[Ahwatukee]

Thank you for posting this. It fed my soul.


I know I'm not going to want to be here in the future, that's for sure. Gods will, not mine.


Amen.

l second that Amen! I couldn't help but laugh, for I looked down past your post knowing that I would most likely see the preterist's responding to my post, all who have been on my ignore list for such a long time. And sure enough, there they all were, all lined up to support preterism. So sad! They won't find out until they see God's plan of wrath unfold until after the church has been gathered.

 

[abcdef]

I went through Revelation 6 through 11 and noted prediction concerning events prior to the return of Jesus and found the following. These are the tribulation period events. Absolutely not spirit world events since one of them predicts 1/3 mankind killed. The seals and trumpets herald in plagues and other disasters coming to chastise those who reject God and Jesus.

Brother Endoscopy,

Please consider how the Israelites viewed other races. They did not consider them as human souls like themselves, in the covenant of Adam. They viewed them as animals, like other mammals. Even today it is "discouraged" for a Jewish person to marry a gentile. So when it talks about mankind, or the elect, or no flesh would be saved, it's talking about Israelites. When it says every nation under heaven Acts 2, it means every nation where Israelites live, not the whole planet.

So when it says mankind, it is saying Israel. The gentiles are grafted in and play a part in the glory, but are not the center off the scriptures. Israel after the flesh still has a role to play, and it is happening now.

Revelation Prophecies

Revelation 6
7 seals

Revelation 8
7th seal
7 trumpets

Revelation 9
Last 3 trumpets
First, second, and third woes are the last 3 trumpets
1/3 mankind killed

The Revelation is telling the same story over and over again, which is mainly about the times of the gentiles, also known as the great tribulation 70 ad- 1967.

The story of the scroll chs 4-11, contains 2 sections. The first is the 7 seals and the second is the 7 trumpets.

The 7 seals cover the time from the rejection of the kingdom by Israel 37 ad., until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad.

The trumpets cover the time from the giving of the Revelation, after the 70 ad destruction, until Jesus comes for the kingdom.

The 1/2 hour of silence is between the dest of Jeru and the giving of the Revelation, say 20 yrs approx..

Revelation 10
7 thunders not recorded

The 7 thunders are not recorded, but they are not sealed. In the parallel passage of Dan 12, the angel says that it would be 3 1/2 times from the captivity in Babylon until the holy people were scattered (70 ad),

So it might be assumed that the 7 thunders said something similar like, 3 1/2 times until the power of the holy people reunites.

This would equal 7 times from the Babylon captivity until Jerusalem was restored to Israel (1967).

This is the same time span as the stature in Daniel 2. The toes end when Jerusalem is restored.

(Then the stone strikes which is the same event as the 7th trumpet, when Jesus comes for the kingdom.)

Little book eaten

The same as Ezek. It means that the scroll is understood or revealed.

Commanded to make new proohecies

The contents of the scroll of 7 seals is now made known. It is the story of the 2 witnesses, who are the natural branches.

The revealing is placed after the 6th trumpet because it could not be understood before the 6th trumpet had blown. The main reason is the restoration of Israel could not be confirmed as it is now, in viewing the time line. Also the identities of the symbols and events taking place surrounding the restoration of Jerusalem have never fit exactly as they do now.

Revelation 11
Sanctuary and alter of God measured and people counted

This is the same story as the 7 seals/trumpets, basically. The natural branches after the 70 ad destruction.

Israel is judged and the natural branches are broken off, and mourn outside Jerusalem for the 3 1/2 times.

Court outside and city of Jerusalem to be trampled by Gentiles for 42 months

The times of the gentiles from 70 ad until 1967.

Power of prophecy given to 2 witnesses for 42 months

The power of Israel is their relationship with God and the Scriptures.

Those attempting to injure or harm them will be killed

Every empire that has tried to exterminate Israel have themselves been killed. Israel is here. But the power of salvation and a relationship with God is the real power.

They have the power to stop rain during their days of prophecy

The rain is God's blessings through the scriptures, the water of life. If an Israelite does not share the scriptures, he with holds the water of life Holy Spirit.

They have the power to turn waters into blood

Waters of life.

They have the power to scourge the earth with various plagues

Withholding the scriptures brings the consequences of sin and guilt on the soul with no escape. The plagues are a result of souls not being able to free themselves from sin in Jesus. The plagues are not literal as in the days of Moses. They are about the state of the souls of men.

When they have finished their testimony the beast will rise up and kill them

Well, remember that the beast is Rome and can be no other. The iron legs/toes of the Dan. 2 statue are Rome.

The 4th beast nation in Dan.7 is Rome.

The dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns is Rome Rev 12.

And the dragon (v 2) that comes out of the abyss in Rev 20 is Rome.

Their bodys will lay in the streets for 3 1/2 days they will lay in the streets of the great city for all to see

The people of Israel natural branches are the 2 W's. This event will be taking place when the armies from across the Euphrates (Iran) are standing in Jerusalem.

Then God raises them from the dead causing great fear in people and calls them up to heaven

This is the resur/rapt. when the dead in Christ rise first

At that point a great earthquake destroys 1/10 of the city killing 7,000 people - second woe

The 1/10 means first fruits. (Of all who are going to die)

7000 means all or complete.

All the people left in Jerusalem are the first to die. Remember that the resurrection/rapture has already taken place, so the only ones left are the people who killed the people of Israel, Iran and Magog.

Those who remained were filled with awe and dread and glorified God

Just like like centurian who gave glory to God after Jesus died, but too late.

Jesus returns to reign on earth

Jesus comes for the kingdom, but not to reign on earth.

According to pre-trib, is this the Matt 24 coming? Or does Jesus come after the trib to reign on earth?.

Is this the one where every eye sees Him? or is that after the trib. The 7th trumpet would be mid trib, as the pretribbers see it.

The heathen rage but Jesus prevails and judgement comes for all

For all, at the Rev 20 glory throne judgment. That is what happens after the 7th trumpet.

 

[abcdef]

l second that Amen! I couldn't help but laugh, for I looked down past your post knowing that I would most likely see the preterist's responding to my post, all who have been on my ignore list for such a long time. And sure enough, there they all were, all lined up to support preterism. So sad! They won't find out until they see God's plan of wrath unfold until after the church has been gathered.

Brother Ahwatukee,

That's Ok brother, we know that you get tired of being shown how you are wrong all the time, well, some of the time, ha ha.

 

[Endoscopy]

Brother Endoscopy,

Please consider how the Israelites viewed other races. They did not consider them as human souls like themselves, in the covenant of Adam. They viewed them as animals, like other mammals. Even today it is "discouraged" for a Jewish person to marry a gentile. So when it talks about mankind, or the elect, or no flesh would be saved, it's talking about Israelites. When it says every nation under heaven Acts 2, it means every nation where Israelites live, not the whole planet.

So when it says mankind, it is saying Israel. The gentiles are grafted in and play a part in the glory, but are not the center off the scriptures. Israel after the flesh still has a role to play, and it is happening now.





The Revelation is telling the same story over and over again, which is mainly about the times of the gentiles, also known as the great tribulation 70 ad- 1967.

The story of the scroll chs 4-11, contains 2 sections. The first is the 7 seals and the second is the 7 trumpets.

The 7 seals cover the time from the rejection of the kingdom by Israel 37 ad., until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad.

The trumpets cover the time from the giving of the Revelation, after the 70 ad destruction, until Jesus comes for the kingdom.

The 1/2 hour of silence is between the dest of Jeru and the giving of the Revelation, say 20 yrs approx..




The 7 thunders are not recorded, but they are not sealed. In the parallel passage of Dan 12, the angel says that it would be 3 1/2 times from the captivity in Babylon until the holy people were scattered (70 ad),

So it might be assumed that the 7 thunders said something similar like, 3 1/2 times until the power of the holy people reunites.

This would equal 7 times from the Babylon captivity until Jerusalem was restored to Israel (1967).

This is the same time span as the stature in Daniel 2. The toes end when Jerusalem is restored.

(Then the stone strikes which is the same event as the 7th trumpet, when Jesus comes for the kingdom.)




The same as Ezek. It means that the scroll is understood or revealed.




The contents of the scroll of 7 seals is now made known. It is the story of the 2 witnesses, who are the natural branches.

The revealing is placed after the 6th trumpet because it could not be understood before the 6th trumpet had blown. The main reason is the restoration of Israel could not be confirmed as it is now, in viewing the time line. Also the identities of the symbols and events taking place surrounding the restoration of Jerusalem have never fit exactly as they do now.





This is the same story as the 7 seals/trumpets, basically. The natural branches after the 70 ad destruction.

Israel is judged and the natural branches are broken off, and mourn outside Jerusalem for the 3 1/2 times.




The times of the gentiles from 70 ad until 1967.




The power of Israel is their relationship with God and the Scriptures.




Every empire that has tried to exterminate Israel have themselves been killed. Israel is here. But the power of salvation and a relationship with God is the real power.




The rain is God's blessings through the scriptures, the water of life. If an Israelite does not share the scriptures, he with holds the water of life Holy Spirit.



Waters of life.




Withholding the scriptures brings the consequences of sin and guilt on the soul with no escape. The plagues are a result of souls not being able to free themselves from sin in Jesus. The plagues are not literal as in the days of Moses. They are about the state of the souls of men.




Well, remember that the beast is Rome and can be no other. The iron legs/toes of the Dan. 2 statue are Rome.

The 4th beast nation in Dan.7 is Rome.

The dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns is Rome Rev 12.

And the dragon (v 2) that comes out of the abyss in Rev 20 is Rome.



The people of Israel natural branches are the 2 W's. This event will be taking place when the armies from across the Euphrates (Iran) are standing in Jerusalem.




This is the resur/rapt. when the dead in Christ rise first




The 1/10 means first fruits. (Of all who are going to die)

7000 means all or complete.

All the people left in Jerusalem are the first to die. Remember that the resurrection/rapture has already taken place, so the only ones left are the people who killed the people of Israel, Iran and Magog.




Just like like centurian who gave glory to God after Jesus died, but too late.




Jesus comes for the kingdom, but not to reign on earth.

According to pre-trib, is this the Matt 24 coming? Or does Jesus come after the trib to reign on earth?.

Is this the one where every eye sees Him? or is that after the trib. The 7th trumpet would be mid trib, as the pretribbers see it.




For all, at the Rev 20 glory throne judgment. That is what happens after the 7th trumpet.

Your first comment is disgusting. We are talking about Revelation the word of God not the writings of an Israelite. Even then it is disgusting about your view of what Israelites viewed other people. Going from there your view of eschatology is inconsistent with any of the 4 main views of eschatology that over the centuries theologians have biblically created. Your comments throughout are also inconsistent with the text. It makes plain statements about the sequence of what will happen. This section of Revelation is not written symbolically. It is a statement about what will happen but you try to create out of thin air other meanings. Considering your opening statement I totally reject everything you state since you obviously have an extremely biased view of what God caused to be written. The Christian view of the Bible is it is the God breathed scripture making it the Word of God!!

 

[PlainWord]

ROFL
Your explanation falls way short!!
When were the 2 witnesses killed after they used the power God gave to them?
How did the whole world (not just a city) see the bodies lay in the street for 3 1/2 days?
When did 1/3 of all mankind killed happen? Not just a city or country. ALL MANKIND.
Where is this recorded?
This and other real world events are prophecied in Revelation.

Did you not read the post you responded to? I answered your questions. Actually read it this time. You need to recognize and learn the figures of speech used by the OT prophets and repeated by John in Revelation. If you don't you are going to incorrectly see some horrific global events leaving the planet destroyed instead of the destruction of Israel in 70 AD, which is what Revelation is actually all about.

MANKIND = the Jewish people
EARTH = Israel
ALL THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH = All Jewish People of Israel

Read Jer 25:29-33. This passage dealt with the pending invasion of Babylon in the 6th century BC. John is merely borrowing the same figures of speech to describe what was soon going to happen to Israel again in 70 AD. It's called "apocalyptic literary style" Google it!! Never mind, I'll spoon feed you. The other thing you need to do is study history.

Apocalyptic literature is a genre of prophetical writing that developed in post-Exilic Jewish culture and was popular among millennialist early Christians.​

"Apocalypse" (ἀποκάλυψις) is a Greek word meaning "revelation", "an unveiling or unfolding of things not previously known and which could not be known apart from the unveiling".[SUP][1][/SUP] As a genre, apocalyptic literature details the authors' visions of the end times as revealed by an angel or other heavenly messenger.[SUP][2][/SUP] The apocalyptic literature of Judaism and Christianity embraces a considerable period, from the centuries following the Babylonian exile down to the close of the Middle Ages.

Apocalyptic elements can be detected in the prophetical books of ​

Joel

and ​

Zechariah

, while ​

Isaiah

chapters 24–27 and 33 present well-developed apocalypses. The ​

Book of Daniel

offers a fully matured and classic example of this genre of literature.​

​

[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

 

[PlainWord]

E
Here is Revelation 9 verses about the real world. Explain how mankind not just a region was killed in 70AD.

Revelation 9 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
1 Then the fifth angel blew [his] trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth; and to the angel was given the key [a]of the shaft of the Abyss (the bottomless pit).
2 He opened the long shaft of the Abyss (the bottomless pit), and smoke like the smoke of a huge furnace puffed out of the long shaft, so that the sun and the atmosphere were darkened by the smoke from the long shaft.
3 Then out of the smoke locusts came forth on the earth, and such power was granted them as the power the earth’s scorpions have.
4 They were told not to injure the herbage of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only [to attack] such human beings as do not have the seal (mark) of God on their foreheads.
5 They were not permitted to kill them, but to torment (distress, vex) them for five months; and the pain caused them was like the torture of a scorpion when it stings a person.
6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it; and they will yearn to die, but death evades and flees from them.


14 Saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, Liberate the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.
15 So the four angels who had been in readiness for that hour in the appointed day, month, and year were liberated to destroy a third of mankind.
16 The number of their troops of cavalry was twice ten thousand times ten thousand (200,000,000); I heard what their number was.
17 And in [my] vision the horses and their riders appeared to me like this: the riders wore breastplates the color of fiery red and sapphire blue and sulphur (brimstone) yellow. The heads of the horses looked like lions’ heads, and from their mouths there poured fire and smoke and sulphur (brimstone).
18 A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues—by the fire and the smoke and the sulphur (brimstone) that poured from the mouths of the horses.

If you want to know about how Revelation 9 was literally fulfilled in the first century, I'll cut and paste it for you below. But take the time to read it, don't just respond in 5 seconds that none of this happened when it did. Revelation is like a painting, using colorful exaggerating imagery to express a colossal disaster coming to the Jewish people which culminated in the desolation and utter destruction in 70 AD. All events in Revelation literally happened. You just need to learn the symbols from the OT prophets which John borrows. Again, it was how THEY talked and understood things, not how we do. Here is a brief synopsis. If you want to do a more in-depth analysis, we can but I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling that you have any real interest in learning the truth.

In the following preterist Bible commentary on Revelation 9 the reader will be exposed to overwhelming evidence that the earthly reflection of the locusts of Revelation 9 are Roman soldiers and the General Titus is the human reflection of Apollyon. Following the precedent set in the Book of Joel, the locusts in this chapter are an invading army. Roman legions and auxiliaries were often represented by different constellations and signs of the zodiac. Interestingly, all the attributes used to describe this locust army were taken directly from constellations that would have been visible the night of Passover, the holiday in which Jesus was crucified and Titus and his army began their five month siege of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The fact that Jerusalem fell after five months fulfills Revelation 9:5: The locust army was “not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months.” Abaddon and Apollyon is an angel with an obvious human counterpart. Apollyon is a play on words for “Apollo” and “destroy.” Apollyon is Vespasian’s son Titus, the commander of the Legio XV Apollinaris (the Fifteenth Apollonian Legion). At the start of the Jewish War, Titus was the commander of the 15[SUP]th[/SUP] Apollonian Legion before being promoted to general over all the Roman legions in Israel at his father’s coronation. Thus Apollyon is an apt title for the former commander of Legio

​

XV Apollinaris

​

(the 15[SUP]th[/SUP] Apollonian Legion) who destroyed Jerusalem and its temple. The soldiers of the Apollonian Legion are represented by locusts because locusts are sacred to Apollo. Just prior to the fall of Jerusalem a multitude of auxiliary units from the Euphrates converged on Jerusalem in fulfillment of Revelation 9:14. The four auxiliary units that reinforced Titus’ army during the siege of Jerusalem were donated by four Roman client kings Antiochus, Agrippa II, Sohemus and Malchus. And just as Titus is Apollyon, the angel of the Abyss of v.11, these four kings are the earthly counterparts of the four angels bound at the Euphrates of v. 14 since Sohemus and Malchus ruled kingdoms on opposite sides of the Euphrates. Thus two out of these four units were drawn directly from the Euphrates. Verse 16 says that the number of these “mounted troops was two hundred million.” However, this figure may be a mistranslation, the Interlinear and Young’s Literal Translation seems to translate the number of these troops in v. 16 as 20,000–the exact number of auxiliary troops that accompanied the Roman at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.In Revelation 9:1-3 a swarm of locusts is released from the Abyss, the dark underworld of the dead. This resurrection motif points to the rise of the Flavian Dynasty who together revived the Roman Empire by putting an end to the civil war following Nero’s death. In other words, the Roman Empire under the Flavian Caesars is the beast whose wound had been healed of Revelation 13:3 and the beast that rises out of the Abyss in Revelation 9:2-3, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17.

 

[PlainWord]

Still at it I see PL - I gave up on this a while back, very hard to re-educate errortics..

I know. Don't know why I bother. I'm probably going to stop soon. I just don't like all of our Christian brothers running around telling the world about some future rapture and great tribulation when it all happened 2,000 years ago. It makes all of us look bad, especially when you have knuckleheads out there setting dates.

 

[PlainWord]

I like to believe that rapture will happen and that we won't have to stay and suffer the torment mentioned the Book of Revelations. It's entirely possible that rapture won't happen. I'm on-the-fence on this one. I can say that I don't want to be the one to use it as an excuse to not better myself in Christ. Ha, I have enough excuses for that already. I want to be as Christ-like as I can, no matter what happens.

*sigh* It's a long road. ♥ We're lucky we have each other to help one another on this road. Props to slave for caring so much.

Rest easy sister, Revelation dealt with the destruction of Israel in 70 AD. There is no future "great tribulation" predicted in the Bible. In Mt 24, Jesus specifically says, "those in Judea" were to flee to avoid the tribulation that was to come upon Israel. Fleeing Judea would not help if the tribulation was global.

Live your life without fear. Sadly, none of us are going to be yanked off the planet and transported to heaven without dying first. This only happened to two people in the history of mankind. We live, we love, we honor and praise God, we testify to the lost. When we die, we immediately go to heaven without having to rest in Hades first which was the case before Christ. That's the big picture. All of this talk about some future rapture and tribulation is nonsense.

 

[PlainWord]

A-F,

It was the last day of the temple age. The Mosaic age ended at the cross when the veil was torn from top to bottom. ​

There was a 40 year transition period from the Cross until the temple was destroyed between the two ages just as there was a 40 year period between the Exodus and entering the Promised Land. All those who were in captivity in Egypt had to die first, remember? The same is true of the disbelieving Jews of the first century.

The law passed away with the death of Jesus on the cross.​

For those who believed in Christ, yes. But they still had a temple and made sacrifices none of which were honored, but they attempted to keep the Law. This is why Paul kept talking about the Law and explaining how the Law was being made obsolete. A period of education was taking place between the Cross and 70 AD. After 70 AD, the Law passed away officially and permanently.

Mat 5:

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away (ISRAEL), one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.​

The "ALL" was the destruction of the temple, Jerusalem and the Israel nation which occurred in 70 AD. This happened at the last "day of the Lord" as foretold by the prophets.

The Messianic age began on Pentecost when the kingdom and salvation came. We are still in that age.​

Yes, it began then but it wasn't like a switch was thrown. The Law was still being practiced concurrently with the "new way" for 40 more years. The nation was being divided in two, wheat and tares. A divided house cannot stand so it fell in 70 AD. Christ literally ripped that nation in two. Those who believed in Him were pulled out of the coming wrath and gentiles were grafted in. This is the New Jerusalem today, which is the Church.

Here again, the scene that takes place after we are all dead and in the spirit, is being melded to fit the preconceived 70 ad finished time line. This happens after death is destroyed in the eternal place after this planet has ended. The symbolism is being slanted to fit as if this is describing the situation of us still being in the flesh. To satisfy the 70 ad finished time line.

70 AD concluded the Mosaic Age. The Messianic Age began at the Cross but was not fully in place until the Law passed away. There was a place of rest for the saints who died in Christ prior to 70 AD but they were not yet in heaven until Christ returned.

You are so hung up on the ToG thing. Read the passage again:

For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

It's all one thought. The "great distress" (tribulation) and the wrath and falling by sword, and being led away captive all happened in 70 AD. The very next sentence contains your ToG. There is no gap taking us to 1967. There are more gentiles in today's Jerusalem than there are Jews. The fact is the ToG ended when Jerusalem was destroyed, the city was no longer being trampled because the city ceased to exist.

Not one stone was left on top of another after the Jewish war. That city is dead and gone forever like a millstone thrown into the sea. Learn the parable of the Fig Tree. It happened, it's over!! Didn't John the Baptist tell the brood of vipers that the ax was already laid to the root in Mat 3? They did not bear fruits of those who would repent, did they? Instead, they killed their Messiah.

​

Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.​

This literally happened in 70 AD. Not only were those vipers all dead and gone, so were their children. They called for the blood of Christ to be upon them AND THEIR KIDS. God exacted that from them and Titus killed every last living priest totally wiping them off the map forever. There is nothing in Luke 21 left to fulfill after 70 AD. Sorry, there just isn't.

We have little to go on in terms of when our age will end and how. All we know is God's pattern and that He is the same God. I do believe at some point He will have to get involved (if He isn't already). There is just too much wickedness in our generation and it all happened so fast like a run away train.​

 

[Endoscopy]

Did you not read the post you responded to? I answered your questions. Actually read it this time. You need to recognize and learn the figures of speech used by the OT prophets and repeated by John in Revelation. If you don't you are going to incorrectly see some horrific global events leaving the planet destroyed instead of the destruction of Israel in 70 AD, which is what Revelation is actually all about.

MANKIND = the Jewish people
EARTH = Israel
ALL THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH = All Jewish People of Israel

Read Jer 25:29-33. This passage dealt with the pending invasion of Babylon in the 6th century BC. John is merely borrowing the same figures of speech to describe what was soon going to happen to Israel again in 70 AD. It's called "apocalyptic literary style" Google it!! Never mind, I'll spoon feed you. The other thing you need to do is study history.

Apocalyptic literature is a genre of prophetical writing that developed in post-Exilic Jewish culture and was popular among millennialist early Christians.​

"Apocalypse" (ἀποκάλυψις) is a Greek word meaning "revelation", "an unveiling or unfolding of things not previously known and which could not be known apart from the unveiling".[SUP][1][/SUP] As a genre, apocalyptic literature details the authors' visions of the end times as revealed by an angel or other heavenly messenger.[SUP][2][/SUP] The apocalyptic literature of Judaism and Christianity embraces a considerable period, from the centuries following the Babylonian exile down to the close of the Middle Ages.

Apocalyptic elements can be detected in the prophetical books of ​

Joel

and ​

Zechariah

, while ​

Isaiah

chapters 24–27 and 33 present well-developed apocalypses. The ​

Book of Daniel

offers a fully matured and classic example of this genre of literature.​

​

[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

I totally reject your view of eschatology!!

 

[PlainWord]

Maybe fire will come down from heaven and vaporize all the evil people to end our age. Then a new age will start.

 

[PlainWord]

I totally reject your view of eschatology!!

No kidding. Sad for you.

 

[CandieM]

This stuff is interesting, but I can't follow it all. Attempting to read all this is giving me eye aches. *lol* How do you all do it? It looks like someone typed a novel in here. *lmao* Wish​ I could read and type this much without eye aches.

The best I can do is live my life in the best way possible ─ with Jesus.

 

[preston39]

I like to believe that rapture will happen and that we won't have to stay and suffer the torment mentioned the Book of Revelations. It's entirely possible that rapture won't happen. ....

C....,

If you conclude that it's possible that the rapture won't happen.......then you do not believe G-d's word. Because The Bible says the rapture ( man's word...for taken up) will happen.

Do you doubt that Christ sacrificed His life on the cross for forgiveness of your and my sins?...etc.


Why do you have doubt? I have no doubt in G-d's word.

We must have faith in G-d's word.

 

[CandieM]

C....,

If you conclude that it's possible that the rapture won't happen.......then you do not believe G-d's word. Because The Bible says the rapture ( man's word...for taken up) will happen.

Do you doubt that Christ sacrificed His life on the cross for forgiveness of your and my sins?...etc.


Why do you have doubt? I have no doubt in G-d's word.

We must have faith in G-d's word.

The only thing I doubt is man's ability to truly understand God's word without finding something contradictory. No, I don't doubt at all that Christ died for us. Fortunately, I am saved. At least, I like to think I am. Hmm.

What I'm pondering ... is if rapture itself really matters ... and hey, I'm not taking sides here. Most of the time, I struggle to understand a lot of things, so I go into these rooms to attempt to read and learn and see what other people think about these topics. There's nothing for me to rebut. What I'm getting at is that ... having Christ in my heart is more important than anything. And I guess I'm also saying that I (we, all of us) are lucky for that. Yep, I think that's all.

Also, what about people who are saved who struggle to understand God's word? What about people who can't read? What about someone who is handicapped in some way so that they can't imbibe His word? Hopefully they are still saved.

 

[CandieM]

What I'm finding ─ this is a real issue and not a cop out ─ is that it really seems to hurt my eyes any time I attempt to read long threads like this. Debates, online novels, stories, etc; how do you all do it? It's a legit question. Maybe I need to look into (pun!) seeing (another pun!) a professional about this, but I wonder if it's natural for the human eye do this if if it's reading content online almost all of the time. The world is making it fairly hard for people to not live on their computers. A lot of people who I've known don't have this issue, but I (pun!) do. Hmm.

This is why I got a physical Bible that I'm slowly reading and slowly understanding. It's hard for me to understand. I don't doubt God's word. I doubt my ability to understand it, alongside with other text in the Bible. In no way am I intelligent. Told I'm smart, but that's debatable.

Sorry for derailing this thread ... if that's what I did. Hope not. idk.

 

[Endoscopy]

No kidding. Sad for you.

You reject what Jesus said about his return being seen by the world. You claim he returned in the spirit world in 70AD. Contrary to what He said!!!

 

[Endoscopy]

What I'm finding ─ this is a real issue and not a cop out ─ is that it really seems to hurt my eyes any time I attempt to read long threads like this. Debates, online novels, stories, etc; how do you all do it? It's a legit question. Maybe I need to look into (pun!) seeing (another pun!) a professional about this, but I wonder if it's natural for the human eye do this if if it's reading content online almost all of the time. The world is making it fairly hard for people to not live on their computers. A lot of people who I've known don't have this issue, but I (pun!) do. Hmm.

This is why I got a physical Bible that I'm slowly reading and slowly understanding. It's hard for me to understand. I don't doubt God's word. I doubt my ability to understand it, alongside with other text in the Bible. In no way am I intelligent. Told I'm smart, but that's debatable.

Sorry for derailing this thread ... if that's what I did. Hope not. idk.

I use biblegateway.com on my smart phone. That way I have access to the Bible in many translations. With a simple click on the pull down menu I can change the translation. That way I can compare NIV to AMPC or another translation.