Baptism and holy spirit
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Eph 6:
18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
"Praying in the Spirit" is speaking in tongues.
1 Cor 14:
15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
It's interesting to me how often people minimize or trivialize things they do not believe in (or understand).
No more from me tonight.
God bless!
18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
"Praying in the Spirit" is speaking in tongues.
1 Cor 14:
15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
It's interesting to me how often people minimize or trivialize things they do not believe in (or understand).
No more from me tonight.
God bless!
I'm kinda back for a little bit at least. First of all, Wow. Great conversation while I was gone. Sensitive subject? Yes. Disagreements? yes. Name calling? No. (at least not by the time I started typing this an hour ago.)
I'll clarify a few details
1. I am a guy/male. Thank you Shrume for "defending my manhood" so to speak.
2. I pretty much refuse to use the word "saved" as a general term, so I have no interest in declaring someone saved or unsaved. I may ask you what you have or don't have, but I leave it up to you to decide how you want to label yourself.
3. What I DO want to know is:
3a) what someone believes,
3b) if they have been baptized (and how), and
3c) if they have received the Holy Ghost.
Depending on the doctrine of the person you are talking to, they will call a person "saved" after they've accomplished any combination of A and/or B and/or C.
And some people don't see the differentiate one from the other. (especially between 3a and 3c) although the bible makes clear distinctions in the examples given throughout the book of Acts...which happens to be the only book of the bible that documents the play-by-play of people receiving the Holy Ghost.
4. Stunnedbygrace is more or less correct in the importance I've presented regarding tongues. For one, I see tongues as the indicator used/observed by spectators and the church in Jerusalem in order to determine whether or not someone has received the Holy Ghost. No one has offered an alternative that fits the biblical accounts. The part we haven't actually gotten to is "what is speaking in tongues for?" which is the rest of the reason I suggest such an importance for speaking in tongues (the unknown kind, not the kind for edification of others). BUT... (see 5)
5. CAN someone have the Holy Ghost and NOT speak in tongues? I think Shrume's lightbulb analogy is kind of doing a good job of explaining that. Can you have a lightbulb without turning it on? Yes. Will you get the intended benefits of having it? only the unavoidable ones, but not the main ones. Would you be able to justify the fact that you still walk in darkness? No.
6. Eternally-grateful made an awesome clarification of his stance on faith/works/salvation on another post. I just wanted to say that because I haven’t gotten back to that thread yet.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I'll clarify a few details
1. I am a guy/male. Thank you Shrume for "defending my manhood" so to speak.
2. I pretty much refuse to use the word "saved" as a general term, so I have no interest in declaring someone saved or unsaved. I may ask you what you have or don't have, but I leave it up to you to decide how you want to label yourself.
3. What I DO want to know is:
3a) what someone believes,
3b) if they have been baptized (and how), and
3c) if they have received the Holy Ghost.
Depending on the doctrine of the person you are talking to, they will call a person "saved" after they've accomplished any combination of A and/or B and/or C.
And some people don't see the differentiate one from the other. (especially between 3a and 3c) although the bible makes clear distinctions in the examples given throughout the book of Acts...which happens to be the only book of the bible that documents the play-by-play of people receiving the Holy Ghost.
4. Stunnedbygrace is more or less correct in the importance I've presented regarding tongues. For one, I see tongues as the indicator used/observed by spectators and the church in Jerusalem in order to determine whether or not someone has received the Holy Ghost. No one has offered an alternative that fits the biblical accounts. The part we haven't actually gotten to is "what is speaking in tongues for?" which is the rest of the reason I suggest such an importance for speaking in tongues (the unknown kind, not the kind for edification of others). BUT... (see 5)
5. CAN someone have the Holy Ghost and NOT speak in tongues? I think Shrume's lightbulb analogy is kind of doing a good job of explaining that. Can you have a lightbulb without turning it on? Yes. Will you get the intended benefits of having it? only the unavoidable ones, but not the main ones. Would you be able to justify the fact that you still walk in darkness? No.
6. Eternally-grateful made an awesome clarification of his stance on faith/works/salvation on another post. I just wanted to say that because I haven’t gotten back to that thread yet.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Hey Stunned!
No, everyone does not need to "prove" that they have met God or "prove" that they are born again by speaking in tongues.
Shrume is correct that it is NOT a gift - it is wrapped up in THE Gift - holy spirit.
No, everyone does not need to "prove" that they have met God or "prove" that they are born again by speaking in tongues.
Shrume is correct that it is NOT a gift - it is wrapped up in THE Gift - holy spirit.
By the way, good to see you again.
I'm kinda back for a little bit at least. First of all, Wow. Great conversation while I was gone. Sensitive subject? Yes. Disagreements? yes. Name calling? No. (at least not by the time I started typing this an hour ago.)
I'll clarify a few details
1. I am a guy/male. Thank you Shrume for "defending my manhood" so to speak.
2. I pretty much refuse to use the word "saved" as a general term, so I have no interest in declaring someone saved or unsaved. I may ask you what you have or don't have, but I leave it up to you to decide how you want to label yourself.
3. What I DO want to know is:
3a) what someone believes,
3b) if they have been baptized (and how), and
3c) if they have received the Holy Ghost.
Depending on the doctrine of the person you are talking to, they will call a person "saved" after they've accomplished any combination of A and/or B and/or C.
And some people don't see the differentiate one from the other. (especially between 3a and 3c) although the bible makes clear distinctions in the examples given throughout the book of Acts...which happens to be the only book of the bible that documents the play-by-play of people receiving the Holy Ghost.
4. Stunnedbygrace is more or less correct in the importance I've presented regarding tongues. For one, I see tongues as the indicator used/observed by spectators and the church in Jerusalem in order to determine whether or not someone has received the Holy Ghost. No one has offered an alternative that fits the biblical accounts. The part we haven't actually gotten to is "what is speaking in tongues for?" which is the rest of the reason I suggest such an importance for speaking in tongues (the unknown kind, not the kind for edification of others). BUT... (see 5)
5. CAN someone have the Holy Ghost and NOT speak in tongues? I think Shrume's lightbulb analogy is kind of doing a good job of explaining that. Can you have a lightbulb without turning it on? Yes. Will you get the intended benefits of having it? only the unavoidable ones, but not the main ones. Would you be able to justify the fact that you still walk in darkness? No.
6. Eternally-grateful made an awesome clarification of his stance on faith/works/salvation on another post. I just wanted to say that because I haven’t gotten back to that thread yet.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I'll clarify a few details
1. I am a guy/male. Thank you Shrume for "defending my manhood" so to speak.
2. I pretty much refuse to use the word "saved" as a general term, so I have no interest in declaring someone saved or unsaved. I may ask you what you have or don't have, but I leave it up to you to decide how you want to label yourself.
3. What I DO want to know is:
3a) what someone believes,
3b) if they have been baptized (and how), and
3c) if they have received the Holy Ghost.
Depending on the doctrine of the person you are talking to, they will call a person "saved" after they've accomplished any combination of A and/or B and/or C.
And some people don't see the differentiate one from the other. (especially between 3a and 3c) although the bible makes clear distinctions in the examples given throughout the book of Acts...which happens to be the only book of the bible that documents the play-by-play of people receiving the Holy Ghost.
4. Stunnedbygrace is more or less correct in the importance I've presented regarding tongues. For one, I see tongues as the indicator used/observed by spectators and the church in Jerusalem in order to determine whether or not someone has received the Holy Ghost. No one has offered an alternative that fits the biblical accounts. The part we haven't actually gotten to is "what is speaking in tongues for?" which is the rest of the reason I suggest such an importance for speaking in tongues (the unknown kind, not the kind for edification of others). BUT... (see 5)
5. CAN someone have the Holy Ghost and NOT speak in tongues? I think Shrume's lightbulb analogy is kind of doing a good job of explaining that. Can you have a lightbulb without turning it on? Yes. Will you get the intended benefits of having it? only the unavoidable ones, but not the main ones. Would you be able to justify the fact that you still walk in darkness? No.
6. Eternally-grateful made an awesome clarification of his stance on faith/works/salvation on another post. I just wanted to say that because I haven’t gotten back to that thread yet.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Absolutely. There are millions of Christians who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost, who have been baptized WITH (not in, or of) the Holy Ghost, have also been filled with the Holy Spirit, and never spoken in tongues. Indeed, Paul tells us very plainly that all will not speak in tongues, and that one day the gift of tongues will cease.
Just because one does not receive the gift/manifestation of healing does not mean they don't believe in it...and just because someone doesn't receive the gift/manifestation of tongues doesn't mean they don't believe in it...
That's not the argument. The argument is over being told by someone who HAS received the gift/manifestation of healing, or tongues, or prophecy, that one who HASN'T received the particular gift that they have hasn't received the Spirit.
The Spirit manifests/gifts as He sees fit, for the good of the body. We ought not try to control Him.
That's not the argument. The argument is over being told by someone who HAS received the gift/manifestation of healing, or tongues, or prophecy, that one who HASN'T received the particular gift that they have hasn't received the Spirit.
The Spirit manifests/gifts as He sees fit, for the good of the body. We ought not try to control Him.
And once again, I am not getting into the conversation over whether or not one can call a manifestation of healing to be a gift from God. I just think it's a silly conversation to have. I say gift from the Spirit and another says manifestation of the Spirit. I understand both ways of saying it and have no desire to try to determine what it is anyone fears falls apart in their theological construct by my saying gift rather than manifestation.
By the way, good to see you again.
By the way, good to see you again.
Nice to see you again also!
Shrume,
Actually, Ephesians 1:13 says they were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise AFTER they believed...which matches the Acts 19 account at Ephesus where they (A) believed and (B)got baptized in verse 5 but didn't (C) receive the Ghost until verse 6 at laying on of hands.
A and C are not necessarily simultaneous. (That's hard to grasp because it goes against most common doctrines)
Not only does the event itself bear witness to that separation... Paul's first question to them in verse 2 acknowledged that he knew A) "belief" and C) "receiving the Holy Ghost" can happen at separate times.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Actually, Ephesians 1:13 says they were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise AFTER they believed...which matches the Acts 19 account at Ephesus where they (A) believed and (B)got baptized in verse 5 but didn't (C) receive the Ghost until verse 6 at laying on of hands.
A and C are not necessarily simultaneous. (That's hard to grasp because it goes against most common doctrines)
Not only does the event itself bear witness to that separation... Paul's first question to them in verse 2 acknowledged that he knew A) "belief" and C) "receiving the Holy Ghost" can happen at separate times.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Stunnedbygrace,
Hey!(humorously).. I liked that analogy.
But (seriously) if you realized what speaking in tongues actually does, I'm guessing you'd pray in tongues for hours at a time because I do NOT take you to be a half-way type of person.
And like I said. I'm not trying to apply the term "Saved" or "Unsaved" to anybody.
What I am trying to say is that Belief, Baptism, and Receiving the Holy Ghost each have a specific purpose, and for each one a person skips, they will NOT get the benefit of that purpose.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Hey!(humorously).. I liked that analogy.
But (seriously) if you realized what speaking in tongues actually does, I'm guessing you'd pray in tongues for hours at a time because I do NOT take you to be a half-way type of person.
And like I said. I'm not trying to apply the term "Saved" or "Unsaved" to anybody.
What I am trying to say is that Belief, Baptism, and Receiving the Holy Ghost each have a specific purpose, and for each one a person skips, they will NOT get the benefit of that purpose.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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That quote was in response to Shrume's statement "It has nothing to do with spreading the gospel. It is not a witnessing tool." Which is the only part of the paragraph I also had slight disagreement with, because of the potentential exception(s).
Speaking in tongues (the unknown kind) generally isn't spoken to man. One exception perhaps being (as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14) when it is to be spoken to the hearing of the church at a time when God is providing an interpreter.
Secondly, and speaking as someone who has (unknown) tongues, I can say that I wouldn't be able to tell if God had the syllables add up to Dutch, Swahili, Africaans or most any other language. If he did that, it would be what I understand to be "diversities of tongues" which means speaking in diverse (different) earthly languages...without having learned them...and could be used to bear "witness" to the wonderful acts of God. That's what I think was happening on the day of Pentecost once the multi-lingual crowd gathered.
From the speakers' points of view, they were still speaking in (unknown) tongues while under the power/unction of the Holy Ghost. But if God were filling their mouths with the multiple languages of the crowd, only the hearers would perceive this. Thus "speaking in tongues" would be kinda be being used as a witnessing tool. But, as Shrume is trying to highlight, those are not the primary purposes of speaking in tongues.
NOTE: Any time speaking in tongues is used in either "diversities of tongues" or for the purpose of interpretation, it becomes equal in purpose to that of prophecy....Edification of the CHURCH rather than it's primary purpose of edification of the SPEAKER only.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Speaking in tongues (the unknown kind) generally isn't spoken to man. One exception perhaps being (as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14) when it is to be spoken to the hearing of the church at a time when God is providing an interpreter.
Secondly, and speaking as someone who has (unknown) tongues, I can say that I wouldn't be able to tell if God had the syllables add up to Dutch, Swahili, Africaans or most any other language. If he did that, it would be what I understand to be "diversities of tongues" which means speaking in diverse (different) earthly languages...without having learned them...and could be used to bear "witness" to the wonderful acts of God. That's what I think was happening on the day of Pentecost once the multi-lingual crowd gathered.
From the speakers' points of view, they were still speaking in (unknown) tongues while under the power/unction of the Holy Ghost. But if God were filling their mouths with the multiple languages of the crowd, only the hearers would perceive this. Thus "speaking in tongues" would be kinda be being used as a witnessing tool. But, as Shrume is trying to highlight, those are not the primary purposes of speaking in tongues.
NOTE: Any time speaking in tongues is used in either "diversities of tongues" or for the purpose of interpretation, it becomes equal in purpose to that of prophecy....Edification of the CHURCH rather than it's primary purpose of edification of the SPEAKER only.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
It. This is very odd to me to call the Spirit it. I'm not complaining. You may call Him it. It's just strange to me.
As for your first two sentences, if it's important for you to point out that things that can be seen can also be experienced by the other senses, then...okay. To me it is not such a major or important thing to stress since I believe all people know that there are five senses, and that what can be seen can be touched and, in fact, when I said to be manifest means a thing can be seen, we were talking about tongues, which would involve the hearing, because we hear speech rather than see speech. But in case you thought I didn't realize all of that...thank you for pointing it out.
As for your first two sentences, if it's important for you to point out that things that can be seen can also be experienced by the other senses, then...okay. To me it is not such a major or important thing to stress since I believe all people know that there are five senses, and that what can be seen can be touched and, in fact, when I said to be manifest means a thing can be seen, we were talking about tongues, which would involve the hearing, because we hear speech rather than see speech. But in case you thought I didn't realize all of that...thank you for pointing it out.
Stunnedbygrace,
Hey!(humorously).. I liked that analogy.
But (seriously) if you realized what speaking in tongues actually does, I'm guessing you'd pray in tongues for hours at a time because I do NOT take you to be a half-way type of person.
And like I said. I'm not trying to apply the term "Saved" or "Unsaved" to anybody.
What I am trying to say is that Belief, Baptism, and Receiving the Holy Ghost each have a specific purpose, and for each one a person skips, they will NOT get the benefit of that purpose.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Hey!(humorously).. I liked that analogy.
But (seriously) if you realized what speaking in tongues actually does, I'm guessing you'd pray in tongues for hours at a time because I do NOT take you to be a half-way type of person.
And like I said. I'm not trying to apply the term "Saved" or "Unsaved" to anybody.
What I am trying to say is that Belief, Baptism, and Receiving the Holy Ghost each have a specific purpose, and for each one a person skips, they will NOT get the benefit of that purpose.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Concerning your last sentence, if you don't receive the Holy Spirit, you are not just skipping a step and so not getting benefits. You will die in your sins. Being Baptized from above is receiving the Spirit of God. And if He does not Baptize you with the Spirit you are not one of His. So by stating that one has not yet received the Spirit, you are stating, (in whatever twisting around of words you choose) that they are unsaved.
I could almost wish that whoever has done this to you would rip out their own tongue.
This isn't true. Yes, it can happen, but it's not the rule.
1 Corinthians 14:10-19 (NLT2)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] There are many different languages in the world, and every language has meaning. [SUP]11 [/SUP] But if I don’t understand a language, I will be a foreigner to someone who speaks it, and the one who speaks it will be a foreigner to me. [SUP]12 [/SUP] And the same is true for you. Since you are so eager to have the special abilities the Spirit gives, seek those that will strengthen the whole church. [SUP]13 [/SUP] So anyone who speaks in tongues should pray also for the ability to interpret what has been said. [SUP]14 [/SUP] For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don’t understand what I am saying. [SUP]15 [/SUP] Well then, what shall I do? I will pray in the spirit, and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand. [SUP]16 [/SUP] For if you praise God only in the spirit, how can those who don’t understand you praise God along with you? How can they join you in giving thanks when they don’t understand what you are saying? [SUP]17 [/SUP] You will be giving thanks very well, but it won’t strengthen the people who hear you. [SUP]18 [/SUP] I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you. [SUP]19 [/SUP] But in a church meeting I would rather speak five understandable words to help others than ten thousand words in an unknown language.
1 Corinthians 14:10-19 (NLT2)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] There are many different languages in the world, and every language has meaning. [SUP]11 [/SUP] But if I don’t understand a language, I will be a foreigner to someone who speaks it, and the one who speaks it will be a foreigner to me. [SUP]12 [/SUP] And the same is true for you. Since you are so eager to have the special abilities the Spirit gives, seek those that will strengthen the whole church. [SUP]13 [/SUP] So anyone who speaks in tongues should pray also for the ability to interpret what has been said. [SUP]14 [/SUP] For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don’t understand what I am saying. [SUP]15 [/SUP] Well then, what shall I do? I will pray in the spirit, and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand. [SUP]16 [/SUP] For if you praise God only in the spirit, how can those who don’t understand you praise God along with you? How can they join you in giving thanks when they don’t understand what you are saying? [SUP]17 [/SUP] You will be giving thanks very well, but it won’t strengthen the people who hear you. [SUP]18 [/SUP] I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you. [SUP]19 [/SUP] But in a church meeting I would rather speak five understandable words to help others than ten thousand words in an unknown language.
One of the reasons there's so much division over the baptism in the Holy Spirit is the attitudes of those who claim to have it.
What was the reasons you sought after it?
I remember seeing some seek it because they wanted to fit in. They wanted so bad to be part of this "special group". The results would be having a feeling of superiority, resulting in a superiority complex. Such a person didn't have it at all, but merely thought they did. Their attitudes stink, & so does their fruits.
Others sought for the Baptism in the HS because they were hooked on a feeling. They were taught this by the actions of others in the church who were having euphoric experiences during worship. Those such as Bethel Fellowship & Hillsong churches worship God for the "feeling" they get when they're in church. To them, worship is all about "me", & getting others to feel like I do.
Most of their "spiritual ministry" is about euphoria & getting others to experience it. Their claim is they are edifying one another with this feeling they get. But that's not true ministry.
To edify someone is to "build them up", making them a better, more mature christian. Things such as:
A true Spirit-filled church will be made of the right stuff to be God's servant to the world, not creating an atmosphere of euphoria & self-importance.
What was the reasons you sought after it?
I remember seeing some seek it because they wanted to fit in. They wanted so bad to be part of this "special group". The results would be having a feeling of superiority, resulting in a superiority complex. Such a person didn't have it at all, but merely thought they did. Their attitudes stink, & so does their fruits.
Others sought for the Baptism in the HS because they were hooked on a feeling. They were taught this by the actions of others in the church who were having euphoric experiences during worship. Those such as Bethel Fellowship & Hillsong churches worship God for the "feeling" they get when they're in church. To them, worship is all about "me", & getting others to feel like I do.
Most of their "spiritual ministry" is about euphoria & getting others to experience it. Their claim is they are edifying one another with this feeling they get. But that's not true ministry.
To edify someone is to "build them up", making them a better, more mature christian. Things such as:
- strengthening their faith
- imparting biblical knowledge
- aiding their understanding of themselves & their needs
- praying for their healing, spiritual deliverance, for peace, for power for service to the Lord.
A true Spirit-filled church will be made of the right stuff to be God's servant to the world, not creating an atmosphere of euphoria & self-importance.
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It would seem you are confused to what and who the sign of tongues points towards . Not the believer and there is no such thing as self edification .What could it produce other then pride? Tongues as to its purpose took away the sin of pride.
No such thing as a sign gift or what some call charismatic. No sign other than the sign of Jonas will be given and it has already been fulfilled in Christ .Jesus said it a evil generation (natural man) that does seek after the things seen. signs. Who would seek after something they already think they have. All saints die not receiving the promise of our new incorruptible bodies that will replace these bodies of death
We walk by faith the eternal the unseen, not after signs as that seen the temporal .
No such thing as a sign gift or what some call charismatic. No sign other than the sign of Jonas will be given and it has already been fulfilled in Christ .Jesus said it a evil generation (natural man) that does seek after the things seen. signs. Who would seek after something they already think they have. All saints die not receiving the promise of our new incorruptible bodies that will replace these bodies of death
We walk by faith the eternal the unseen, not after signs as that seen the temporal .
Hi dcon,
Can you please explain how I am twisting and conflating scripture? It seems to me that Paul clearly states that praying in the spirit is speaking in tongues (1 Cor 14:15), and in Ephesians 6:18 he states to always pray in the spirit.
What proof would satisfy you?
"Under the bus"? lol. Nope. Tongues, knowledge, and prophesy absolutely will cease, vanish, and fail. We just disagree on when it will happen. You believe it already has happened. Many Christians, myself included, don't.
I do not reject the fact that Paul was correcting the Corinthians' misuse of tongues. He was explaining to them the correct way to operate the manifestations, primarily speaking in tongues, interpretation, and prophesy. Some Pentecostal churches today should heed what he said.
Can you please explain how I am twisting and conflating scripture? It seems to me that Paul clearly states that praying in the spirit is speaking in tongues (1 Cor 14:15), and in Ephesians 6:18 he states to always pray in the spirit.
What proof would satisfy you?
"Under the bus"? lol. Nope. Tongues, knowledge, and prophesy absolutely will cease, vanish, and fail. We just disagree on when it will happen. You believe it already has happened. Many Christians, myself included, don't.
I do not reject the fact that Paul was correcting the Corinthians' misuse of tongues. He was explaining to them the correct way to operate the manifestations, primarily speaking in tongues, interpretation, and prophesy. Some Pentecostal churches today should heed what he said.