Baptism and holy spirit

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shrume

Senior Member
#421
Jun 26, 2017
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#421
Stunnedbygrace said:
Well...our Lord bore much more than a little rudeness out of love for us. I can handle a little rudeness or abruptness. It's not like it sheds any of my blood. It doesn't even leave a mark. Besides, I happen to know he's missing most of his teeth as old as he is. He can't hurt you. :p
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I think that generally, my skin is pretty thick.

But I do shake my head at times at the way I see some people responding to disagreements by telling each other that they're not saved, incapable of understanding the truth, adhering to doctrines of men, practicing eisegesis rather than exegesis, etc.

I think most of us are pretty convinced in what we believe, but we should be able to discuss differences without being nasty.

Sometimes I think that the only thing we all agree on is we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. :)
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#422
May 23, 2012
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#422
notuptome said:
Mt 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Since you are convinced I don't know please tell me how you define ecstatic utterances.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Tongues is not vain repetition nor was tongues the context of what Jesus was saying .
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#423
Jun 26, 2017
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#423
Stunnedbygrace said:
Hmm...we see the core of the verse as being different. You see the topic as being about a certain manifestation/gift and I see the thrust as being that...no manifestation or gift of the Spirit is worth a hill of beans without love being expressed in us and through us by the Spirit...

Reminds me of those infernal drawings we had to do in English class where we had to pick out all the parts of a sentence and diagram them. I would have listed the main topic of the sentence as being love. You would have listed it as being tongues. An English teacher would have to say which is the right main topic of the sentence...maybe one will come in here. :)
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No, I agree that the main topic of the verse is love.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#425
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#425
CS1 said:
Tongues is not vain repetition nor was tongues the context of what Jesus was saying .
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I agree but I have heard them described as such.

Now what about them ecstatic utterances. I have heard tongues described in that fashion as well.

I have always held that tongues must be languages. Real human languages not fantasy languages.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Waggles

Waggles

Senior Member
#426
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
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South
adelaiderevival.com
#426
Well I've had my morning cup of coffee
now for half-an-hour of praying in tongues
praying in the Holy Spirit for healings, miracles and blessings for other people with various needs
this is the refreshing

and the proof of all this is the many many answered prayers
works for me.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#427
#427
notuptome said:
LOL Guess they were not Calvinists.

They were used of God to write the NT but they did not have a complete copy for a couple decades. They were Jews so they used the OT. Same thing today in that you cannot witness to a Jew from the NT. Jews do not receive they authority of the NT. Blinded as part of the consequences of the cry for the blood of Jesus to be on them and their children.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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but we do, right?

there are people of all races and religions blinded

nothing new there

yes...the cry for the blood of Jesus to be upon them and their children is enough to make your blood run cold when, in retrospect, you know the history :cry:
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#428
May 23, 2012
13,058
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#428
notuptome said:
I agree but I have heard them described as such.

Now what about them ecstatic utterances. I have heard tongues described in that fashion as well.

I have always held that tongues must be languages. Real human languages not fantasy languages.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Tongues must be a language you say you have heard? So now what? You will provided a language expert aka linguist to explain how tongues is not a language ? Or do we have to listen to the false narrative of how it is a pagan practice? You suggest it is fantasy yet you do not know every language under God of men do you? I was never taught how to speak in tongues, nor do I just speak repetitively and think God will hear me for my much speaking . Before I even open my mouth, I know God hears me.



Now my personal experience had nothing to do with pagans or anything demonic because One does not seek the Lord Jesus Christ and finds a devil. Those who call on the name of the Lord SHALL be saved, not might be. The Holy Spirit as in the word of God, has gifting which are His gifts found in the Unit Chapter’s of 1cor 12, 13, and 14. Tongues is one of them. You set a standard to meet your human reasoning . I have been asked to demonstrate, prove your tongues are real. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for show. The Holy Spirit is very patient with us when we are growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. Everyone has needed correction in their walk with the Lord.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#429
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#429
7seasrekeyed said:
but we do, right?

there are people of all races and religions blinded

nothing new there

yes...the cry for the blood of Jesus to be upon them and their children is enough to make your blood run cold when, in retrospect, you know the history :cry:
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Do we have the complete NT? I certainly think we do. The Holy Spirit would seem to confirm the authority of the completed NT.

History is continuing to be written but Gods word transcends history.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#430
May 23, 2012
13,058
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#430
notuptome said:
Do we have the complete NT? I certainly think we do. The Holy Spirit would seem to confirm the authority of the completed NT.

History is continuing to be written but Gods word transcends history.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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That is a good point however Did the New Testament church in Acts have the gospel writings Matthew Mark and Luke? No they did not they had the Old Testament. And the witness of the Apostles
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#431
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#431
CS1 said:
Tongues must be a language you say you have heard? So now what? You will provided a language expert aka linguist to explain how tongues is not a language ? Or do we have to listen to the false narrative of how it is a pagan practice? You suggest it is fantasy yet you do not know every language under God of men do you? I was never taught how to speak in tongues, nor do I just speak repetitively and think God will hear me for my much speaking . Before I even open my mouth, I know God hears me.



Now my personal experience had nothing to do with pagans or anything demonic because One does not seek the Lord Jesus Christ and finds a devil. Those who call on the name of the Lord SHALL be saved, not might be. The Holy Spirit as in the word of God, has gifting which are His gifts found in the Unit Chapter’s of 1cor 12, 13, and 14. Tongues is one of them. You set a standard to meet your human reasoning . I have been asked to demonstrate, prove your tongues are real. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for show. The Holy Spirit is very patient with us when we are growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. Everyone has needed correction in their walk with the Lord.
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I was not asking about your personal experiences.

I asked you to define ecstatic utterances.

I have no reason to believe that tongues in the bible were anything other than human languages. Which ones is not the question as any human language is a tongue that can be understood by one and not comprehended by another without an interpreter.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#432
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#432
CS1 said:
That is a good point however Did the New Testament church in Acts have the gospel writings Matthew Mark and Luke? No they did not they had the Old Testament. And the witness of the Apostles
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God blessed His word and the apostles used the OT and their first hand witness of Jesus to win souls.

Souls were added to the church and continue to be added through the word of God and the testimony of the saints.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#433
May 23, 2012
13,058
4,344
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#433
notuptome said:
I was not asking about your personal experiences.

I asked you to define ecstatic utterances.

I have no reason to believe that tongues in the bible were anything other than human languages. Which ones is not the question as any human language is a tongue that can be understood by one and not comprehended by another without an interpreter.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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that is not the purpose of Biblical tongues or I should say the Gift of Tongues in 1cor 12, 13, and 14.

the term "ecstatic utterances."

is one coined by SDA mainly and other who are not for the gift of tongues today. the term "ecstatic utterances." comes from a 1879

defintion of what is known as ecstasy or glossolalia . The problem is glossolia existed before the 1800s and this terms has developed over time.

the only problem with this understanding is this, you ready ? IT IS NOT BIBLE Based. the term changes over the years however, only because they have looked at other belief systems outside of the Bible and early Church experiences to explain the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Why would any Christian used world depictions of what the Word of God calls the “Gifts of the Holy Spirit” ? One reason , to discredit a move of God that is founded in the context of the Word of God and in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit seen used over and over again in the Book of Acts. You will not find in the Bible the term “ecstatic utterances”. It is not a biblical explanation of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

There you go the defintion of "ecstatic utterances.".
 
peacefulbeliever

peacefulbeliever

Senior Member
#434
Feb 21, 2012
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#434
CS1 said:
That is a good point however Did the New Testament church in Acts have the gospel writings Matthew Mark and Luke? No they did not they had the Old Testament. And the witness of the Apostles
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Yes, they had the witness of the Apostles . . . Amen!
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#435
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#435
CS1 said:
that is not the purpose of Biblical tongues or I should say the Gift of Tongues in 1cor 12, 13, and 14.

the term "ecstatic utterances."

is one coined by SDA mainly and other who are not for the gift of tongues today. the term "ecstatic utterances." comes from a 1879

defintion of what is known as ecstasy or glossolalia . The problem is glossolia existed before the 1800s and this terms has developed over time.

the only problem with this understanding is this, you ready ? IT IS NOT BIBLE Based. the term changes over the years however, only because they have looked at other belief systems outside of the Bible and early Church experiences to explain the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Why would any Christian used world depictions of what the Word of God calls the “Gifts of the Holy Spirit” ? One reason , to discredit a move of God that is founded in the context of the Word of God and in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit seen used over and over again in the Book of Acts. You will not find in the Bible the term “ecstatic utterances”. It is not a biblical explanation of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

There you go the defintion of "ecstatic utterances.".
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I've seen it described as an uncontrolled spontaneous excited utterance. It usually sounds like stuttering or an otherwise unintelligible utterance.

I agree it is not biblical nor is it tongues biblical or otherwise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#436
May 23, 2012
13,058
4,344
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#436
notuptome said:
I've seen it described as an uncontrolled spontaneous excited utterance. It usually sounds like stuttering or an otherwise unintelligible utterance.

I agree it is not biblical nor is it tongues biblical or otherwise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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You said in post 431to me “I was not asking about your personal experiences.”

Then you say in post 435: “I've seen it described as an uncontrolled spontaneous excited utterance”





So what you have seen described as an uncontrolled what now? I am not asking you about your personal experience either sir. And what you say it sounded like could very well be due to a limitation of understanding. That would not discredit the gift you say you have seen described.

Your experience as mind does not validate the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God does and the effects after the gift has been used confirms with it is of God.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#437
Nov 12, 2015
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#437
So I was thinking while I walked my awful, awful little dog...is the biggest point of contention that some are disturbed because others think they are speaking a language that angels speak and others think they are speaking some human language even if it's no longer around?

I don't have a problem if someone thinks they're speaking a language that angels speak. I have no desire to try to bash them for thinking it. I have no problem with them thinking it. They sometimes seem to have a problem with me having never spoken in tongues though. So it seems to me that I have no problem with them thinking what they think but they seem to have a problem with me sometimes.

The only time they make me even the least bit uncomfortable is when they tell others they haven't received the Spirit because they don't/have never operated in a specific gift/manifestation. The Spirit moves as He wills to move, gifts as He wills to gift, and manifests as He purposes to manifest.

I realize that some people take great offense when someone thinks they are speaking the language that angels speak, but I'm not one of them.
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#438
Jun 26, 2017
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464
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#438
Stunnedbygrace said:
So I was thinking while I walked my awful, awful little dog...is the biggest point of contention that some are disturbed because others think they are speaking a language that angels speak and others think they are speaking some human language even if it's no longer around?
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I don't think that's the problem. At least it's not for me.

I think the point of contention is that several posters are convinced that tongues ceased, as well as prophesy and knowledge, and that anyone claiming to do those things today is deceived, a heretic, practicing a false doctrine, etc.

I am also convinced that many people simply do not understand what speaking in tongues is, and what it is for.

(SBG and Joe, please let me know if I start responding to myself again..)
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#440
Nov 12, 2015
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#440
shrume said:
I don't think that's the problem. At least it's not for me.

I think the point of contention is that several posters are convinced that tongues ceased, as well as prophesy and knowledge, and that anyone claiming to do those things today is deceived, a heretic, practicing a false doctrine, etc.

I am also convinced that many people simply do not understand what speaking in tongues is, and what it is for.

(SBG and Joe, please let me know if I start responding to myself again..)
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I still don't think there are that many who think God has done away with tongues...I think it would be more accurate to say that more have a suspicion that tongues might just be earthly languages, not that they think they are gone forever...and in that case, it wouldn't be accurate to say they think tongues have ceased. They would just think tongues are a different thing than you do.

And even among them, I think most are okay with you thinking you are speaking an angel language as long as you don't call someone doomed/without the Spirit for not talking in that language.

But I was wrong once before. It could happen again...:LOL::ROFL:
 
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