Oh goody another OSAS thread!
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In order to understand the context of these passages we must go back a verse:
2 Peter 2:19, ESV: "They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved."
First off, this is talking about false teachers that promise other people (them) freedom (to sin), but they themselves are slaves.... this means these teachers aren't saved... if they were saved that goes against Scripture that teaches believers are set free. And no longer slaves to sin.
But let's go back a little further.
If we go back to the beginning of 2 Peter 2, you see this:
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
I personally don't see false prophets and false teachers as being true believers. Therefore I believe the crux of this passage is to ensure you a true believer and if you are that means you follow Christ. Because we love Him who loved us first.
2 Peter 2:19, ESV: "They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved."
First off, this is talking about false teachers that promise other people (them) freedom (to sin), but they themselves are slaves.... this means these teachers aren't saved... if they were saved that goes against Scripture that teaches believers are set free. And no longer slaves to sin.
But let's go back a little further.
If we go back to the beginning of 2 Peter 2, you see this:
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
I personally don't see false prophets and false teachers as being true believers. Therefore I believe the crux of this passage is to ensure you a true believer and if you are that means you follow Christ. Because we love Him who loved us first.
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These false prophets who are a scourge on any internet forum, knew the truth, they knew the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, but went back and became entangled in their old ways. Their end will be worse than their beginning.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. (2Pe 2:20 KJV)
They knew the truth and departed from it as we can see in the following verses: These false teachers left the right way and went the wrong way. They followed the same way that the prophet Balaam went. He was the son of Beor, who loved being paid for doing wrong. (2Pe 2:15 ERV)
But a donkey told him that he was doing wrong. A donkey cannot talk, of course, but that donkey spoke with a man's voice and stopped the prophet from acting so crazy. (2Pe 2:16 ERV)
These false teachers are like springs that have no water. They are like clouds that are blown by a storm. A place in the deepest darkness has been kept for them. (2Pe 2:17 ERV)
They boast with words that mean nothing. They lead people into the trap of sin. They find people who have just escaped from a wrong way of life [new converts] and lead them back into sin. They do this by using the evil things people want to do in their human weakness. (2Pe 2:18 ERV)
These false teachers promise those people freedom, but they themselves are not free. They are slaves to a mind that has been ruined by sin. Yes, people are slaves to anything that controls them. (2Pe 2:19 ERV)
These false teachers, the same as the angels we read about below, knew God and the truth and the next verse tells us what happened to them:
When angels sinned, God did not let them go free without punishment. He sent them to hell. He put those angels in caves of darkness, where they are being held until the time when God will judge them. (2Pe 2:4 ERV)
Try telling the angels they are "Always Saved."
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. (2Pe 2:20 KJV)
They knew the truth and departed from it as we can see in the following verses: These false teachers left the right way and went the wrong way. They followed the same way that the prophet Balaam went. He was the son of Beor, who loved being paid for doing wrong. (2Pe 2:15 ERV)
But a donkey told him that he was doing wrong. A donkey cannot talk, of course, but that donkey spoke with a man's voice and stopped the prophet from acting so crazy. (2Pe 2:16 ERV)
These false teachers are like springs that have no water. They are like clouds that are blown by a storm. A place in the deepest darkness has been kept for them. (2Pe 2:17 ERV)
They boast with words that mean nothing. They lead people into the trap of sin. They find people who have just escaped from a wrong way of life [new converts] and lead them back into sin. They do this by using the evil things people want to do in their human weakness. (2Pe 2:18 ERV)
These false teachers promise those people freedom, but they themselves are not free. They are slaves to a mind that has been ruined by sin. Yes, people are slaves to anything that controls them. (2Pe 2:19 ERV)
These false teachers, the same as the angels we read about below, knew God and the truth and the next verse tells us what happened to them:
When angels sinned, God did not let them go free without punishment. He sent them to hell. He put those angels in caves of darkness, where they are being held until the time when God will judge them. (2Pe 2:4 ERV)
Try telling the angels they are "Always Saved."
No one said angels were always saved. But regarding humans Jesus did say He would lose NONE who was given to Him.
So either He's losing them or they were never in Him.
False teachers aren't believers. Jesus says false teachers are hypocrites. WOLVES in Sheep's clothing. Not Sheep.
Christians are not dogs or hogs.
22What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.
Christians are sheep. Sheep follow their Shepherd. Notice it doesn't say these sheep turn into dogs. They were never converted. You're reading into the context to make it say they were converted. While everything in the context indicates they weren't. "waterless, going to deep darkness, and not free from sin". Knowing who God is and knowing what the gospel is - is not following Christ. These people were following the way of Balaam not Christ.
So either He's losing them or they were never in Him.
False teachers aren't believers. Jesus says false teachers are hypocrites. WOLVES in Sheep's clothing. Not Sheep.
Christians are not dogs or hogs.
22What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.
Christians are sheep. Sheep follow their Shepherd. Notice it doesn't say these sheep turn into dogs. They were never converted. You're reading into the context to make it say they were converted. While everything in the context indicates they weren't. "waterless, going to deep darkness, and not free from sin". Knowing who God is and knowing what the gospel is - is not following Christ. These people were following the way of Balaam not Christ.
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He's discussing the integrity of the gospel. Not people leaving who were once believers. His point is that they won't add to the gospel. We see many Scriptures where Paul is vigilant about protecting the gospel from those who want to pervert it. And Paul's defense of the gospel is against those who want to add to the work of Christ.
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Jesus never looses anyone and if necessary will seek out the lost sheep. On the other hand, those Christians who wilfully leave the fold, and RETURN to their own vomit and proceed to wallow in the mire are no longer his.
Heb 6:4-6 KJV
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
The fact they can "return" to their old ways confirms the false teaching of the OSAS.
Heb 6:4-6 KJV
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
The fact they can "return" to their old ways confirms the false teaching of the OSAS.
"On the other hand, those Christians who wilfully leave the fold, and RETURN to their own vomit and proceed to wallow in the mire are no longer his." Except Scripture doesn't teach that.
Are we back to Hebrews 6:-4 again? Okay so if it's IMPOSSIBLE to repent after you believe, you better not make any mistakes or sins until you die. Or else you're toast.
This Scripture is discussing the finality of Christ as our sacrifice. If He isn't enough there is no other. You can't recrucify Him.
Hebrews 6:9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.
As you can see Hebrews 6:4-6 wasn't even written about them. Because in their case, they know their readers are saved. I.E. things that belong to salvation.
Are we back to Hebrews 6:-4 again? Okay so if it's IMPOSSIBLE to repent after you believe, you better not make any mistakes or sins until you die. Or else you're toast.
This Scripture is discussing the finality of Christ as our sacrifice. If He isn't enough there is no other. You can't recrucify Him.
Hebrews 6:9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.
As you can see Hebrews 6:4-6 wasn't even written about them. Because in their case, they know their readers are saved. I.E. things that belong to salvation.
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R
I've already been showing where Paul says if you go back to the law for justification you become a slave, a slave of the old covenant who will not be an heir along with the sons of the New Covenant, but let's do even better than Paul and show where Jesus himself said a person can lose the forgiveness he has received:
"21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26“At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28“But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.i He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
29“His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
30“But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”-Matthew 18:23-35
The arguments saying this passage does not apply to us will be many and varied. Let's visit some of the facts right in the passage before those arguments get raised:
1) The man really was forgiven (vs.27,32). This is not a fake forgiveness. This is not a temporary forgiveness granted until a later time. This is true, unconditional forgiveness.
2) Like the debt we owe for our sin, the debt the man owes is so large it can never be paid back (vs.24). Therefore, being jailed and tortured until he should pay back all he owed does not signify a temporary punishment akin to the Lord chastising his own in this life for sin but rather signifies an eternal sentence of punishment (vs.34). Like our sin debt, he will never be able to pay the debt he owes. Forgiveness of the debt was the only way out and he lost that way out that he had received.
3) This parable is about the kingdom of heaven (vs.23), not about some time now past during the rule of the old covenant. Jesus says this is how his Father will treat each of us in the kingdom of heaven if we do not forgive others after we ourselves have been forgiven (vs.35). We will lose the justification (the forgiveness of sin) we ourselves have received if we do not respond in like manner to those who have sinned against us (the parable is about forgiving others-vs.21).
"21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26“At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28“But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.i He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
29“His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
30“But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”-Matthew 18:23-35
The arguments saying this passage does not apply to us will be many and varied. Let's visit some of the facts right in the passage before those arguments get raised:
1) The man really was forgiven (vs.27,32). This is not a fake forgiveness. This is not a temporary forgiveness granted until a later time. This is true, unconditional forgiveness.
2) Like the debt we owe for our sin, the debt the man owes is so large it can never be paid back (vs.24). Therefore, being jailed and tortured until he should pay back all he owed does not signify a temporary punishment akin to the Lord chastising his own in this life for sin but rather signifies an eternal sentence of punishment (vs.34). Like our sin debt, he will never be able to pay the debt he owes. Forgiveness of the debt was the only way out and he lost that way out that he had received.
3) This parable is about the kingdom of heaven (vs.23), not about some time now past during the rule of the old covenant. Jesus says this is how his Father will treat each of us in the kingdom of heaven if we do not forgive others after we ourselves have been forgiven (vs.35). We will lose the justification (the forgiveness of sin) we ourselves have received if we do not respond in like manner to those who have sinned against us (the parable is about forgiving others-vs.21).
Read that verse again. It says that it's the father's will that not any be lost. It's also his will that all be saved, but we know that his will can be thwarted by man's will.
Now this is the will of the one who sent me: that everyone whom he has given me, I would not lose any of them, but raise them up on the last day. John 6:39
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In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
Do you understand the difference?
Do you understand the difference?
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Again, the biblical condition for being saved, is to believe.
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
- lest they should believe and be saved.
The next group believed for a while, then fell away.
- who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Those who believe [and are saved] for a while, then no longer believe, are no longer believers, because they have fallen into unbelief.
If you believe there is more that a person must do to be saved, then please share what that is, with the scriptures.
JPT
That's your biased opinion. Now for a Biblical view:
Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Let me explain the reasons.
First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.
***Unlike saving faith, temporary shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons "believe" mental assent that "there is one God," but they are not saved.
John has portrayed people who "believe" but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.
Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. YOU CALL THAT SAVED?
I already explained this to you in post #1,009 but as usual, the truth just went right over your head.
Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Let me explain the reasons.
First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.
***Unlike saving faith, temporary shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons "believe" mental assent that "there is one God," but they are not saved.
John has portrayed people who "believe" but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.
Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. YOU CALL THAT SAVED?
I already explained this to you in post #1,009 but as usual, the truth just went right over your head.
26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 18:26-35
- ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.
- And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
We can be forgiven all, then later because we refuse to forgive others, can have the full penalty for sin re-instated back to us.
JPT
The picture illustrates God's total forgiveness when dealing with our sins at the cross. Our debt has been paid in full by Jesus. The contrast in verse 28, where the same servant is unwilling to forgive his fellow servant a debt of a hundred denarii is deliberately presented as a hideous hypothetical situation. As unbelievable as this action would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a genuine Christian, who has been forgiven such a huge debt, to be unforgiving of others with such a small debt. In the story, such an unforgiving servant is called a "wicked" servant because no genuine born again Christian would have such an unforgiving heart.
A Christian’s forgiveness of others is based on an understanding that he has been forgiven by God’s undeserved and unearned mercy. Jesus warned that God cannot forgive us if we do not have humble and repentant hearts and we reveal the condition of our hearts by the way we treat others. Hearts that are humble and appreciate God’s grace gladly forgive others from a heart that is saved, but proud and revengeful hearts with no true repentance, that don't forgive in such small mattersrs, reveal a heart that is unsaved and don't receive God's forgiveness.
Those who are unforgiving from the heart show that they are unfitted to receive God’s forgiveness. Failure to forgive in such a small matter shows that this person has not understood God’s grace and forgiveness, hence the term, "wicked servant," which is not descriptive of a genuine believer. The fact that this person is called a servant does not necessarily mean they are saved. Israel (the Jews) were referred to as "the Lord’s servants" - You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servant, whom I chosen.. - Isaiah 43:10, but they were not all saved.
Unforgiveness is the mark of an unbeliever and forgiveness would be the mark of a true believer. We should forgive others because God, through Christ, has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32). It is inconceivable that someone who has truly experienced God's forgiveness could refuse to grant forgiveness to others, especially in such a small matter, as we saw in Matthew 18:26-35.
A Christian’s forgiveness of others is based on an understanding that he has been forgiven by God’s undeserved and unearned mercy. Jesus warned that God cannot forgive us if we do not have humble and repentant hearts and we reveal the condition of our hearts by the way we treat others. Hearts that are humble and appreciate God’s grace gladly forgive others from a heart that is saved, but proud and revengeful hearts with no true repentance, that don't forgive in such small mattersrs, reveal a heart that is unsaved and don't receive God's forgiveness.
Those who are unforgiving from the heart show that they are unfitted to receive God’s forgiveness. Failure to forgive in such a small matter shows that this person has not understood God’s grace and forgiveness, hence the term, "wicked servant," which is not descriptive of a genuine believer. The fact that this person is called a servant does not necessarily mean they are saved. Israel (the Jews) were referred to as "the Lord’s servants" - You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servant, whom I chosen.. - Isaiah 43:10, but they were not all saved.
Unforgiveness is the mark of an unbeliever and forgiveness would be the mark of a true believer. We should forgive others because God, through Christ, has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32). It is inconceivable that someone who has truly experienced God's forgiveness could refuse to grant forgiveness to others, especially in such a small matter, as we saw in Matthew 18:26-35.
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How on Earth (and in Heaven) can you twist this passage to mean Jesus will lose some that His Father has given Him!? Jesus EXPRESSLY says He ISN'T going lose any.
And a refresher unanswered question for ya:
What exactly do you think "knowing" means? Adam "knew" his wife and from that knowing a new life was created.
Matthew 7:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Jesus says He NEVER knew them. He NEVER created a NEW life in them. It appears that you believe similar to these guys who thought the new life came about by DOING a whole bunch of stuff in Jesus' name.
If you are NOT like these guys who practice lawlessness, then please tell us what "knowing" Jesus means to you.
It is a similar question to what does the sealing of the Holy Spirit mean to you. You said God can unseal you, but you didn't tell us what the sealing MEANT to you.
So please tell us what "sealing" means and what "knowing" Jesus means to you. Thank you.
And a refresher unanswered question for ya:
What exactly do you think "knowing" means? Adam "knew" his wife and from that knowing a new life was created.
Matthew 7:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Jesus says He NEVER knew them. He NEVER created a NEW life in them. It appears that you believe similar to these guys who thought the new life came about by DOING a whole bunch of stuff in Jesus' name.
If you are NOT like these guys who practice lawlessness, then please tell us what "knowing" Jesus means to you.
It is a similar question to what does the sealing of the Holy Spirit mean to you. You said God can unseal you, but you didn't tell us what the sealing MEANT to you.
So please tell us what "sealing" means and what "knowing" Jesus means to you. Thank you.
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