Baptism and holy spirit

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CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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3.5 AD
This are spiritual things and even if i explain i'd be wasting my breath and time i believe- for people that are looking for physical signs missed the mark looong time ago, we go by understanding. Jesus said, "if you see the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Let the reader understand). If you don't go by understanding then you have already missed the mark.



We are deep into the great tribulation trust me. What makes the great tribulation?

Rev 6: Death by, sword (wars), famine (Natural disasters), Pestilences (Diseases), beasts of the earth (Animals & machinery- accidents).
Anybody who says people today are not dying because of these things are just deluded, people die from accidents/wars/diseases/natural disasters.

Are we in Revelation times?
We are deep into the Revelation times we are almost over.

Rev 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

Revelation is a time conscious book, so timely that Christ's Atonement work became effective at Rev 14:13 , at that very moment- the reason the angel said “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
If the angel was talking about a future event he would have said "from that moment on" not "from now on"

So, people were to overcome the antichrist form that moment on, how does anyone in the 21st century claim that we are not yet there?




I know what i speak of, trust me.
Not do not agree we are in the great trib . Matt 24-25 and other prophetic writings show many things ,

I do see :

1. The great falling "away" has happened and is happening

2Thess 2:3

"3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2. men lover of self 2tim 3:2 "For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, "

3. birth pains Matt 24:8 "All these are the beginning of birth pains. "
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Then no man at Pentecost heard the gospel being proclaimed in his own tongue and the church never began and the alarm clock will go off in a minute! :LOL:
hmmm Peter preached and it did not say he preached in Tongues .

it said they heard them speaking Acts 2:4

" And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. "

" Acts 2:6 "Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. "


:7 " And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? "

:8 "And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? "

:11 " Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. "

Wonderful works of God did not mean it was the gospel , That is why Peter had to excplain " This was that" spoken by the Prophet Joel. Then Peter Preached Jesus ans they were saved 3000 of them.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Tongues is not a gift, it's one of the nine manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is something God would like every Christian to do (1 Cor 14:5).
You are stuck on that point and it doesn't help you. If anyone was to summarize 1 Cor 14, they would say Paul was against speaking of tongues in the church because it was all confusion not unless it was interpreted. So Paul was for something that everyone would understand.
What happens today is in total contrast of what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 14. People speak incomprehensible words and no one interprates. So im still right as per 1 Cor 14 to castigate todays tongues because no one understands them- Paul would have done the same.

Speaking in tongues is a gift and interpreting the spoken tongues is also a gift as per:

1 Cor 12:7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,a and to still another the interpretation of tongues

If you claim that speaking in tongues is a manifestation of the gift of HS and every Christian should do it, so is the ability to interpret those tongues and every christian should be able to interpret tongues- don;t you think so?

Praying in tongues (spirit praying on one's behalf) is a private affair and i have no issues with it, Paul didn't have any issues with it. Christians don't pray in public- when you pray, close yourself in your closet and pray privately. People praying privately should not be our concern - whether they use known or unknown language, it shouldn't concern the public and we shouldn't be discussing it here. And why should anyone shout when they are praying privately? they can as well pray silently in their spirit.
This is the context of praying in tongues or in the spirit:

Rom 8:25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words

I repeat, what we see in our churches today has nothing to do with God.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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hmmm Peter preached and it did not say he preached in Tongues .

it said they heard them speaking Acts 2:4

" And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. "

" Acts 2:6 "Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. "


:7 " And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? "

:8 "And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? "

:11 " Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. "

Wonderful works of God did not mean it was the gospel , That is why Peter had to excplain " This was that" spoken by the Prophet Joel. Then Peter Preached Jesus ans they were saved 3000 of them.

Not sure why this would become a sticking point for us. Hope it doesn't anyway.
The most awesome and wondrous work of God is the cross, in my opinion. The entire OT speaks of Jesus over and over. I think it would be impossible to speak of the wondrous works of God and NOT mention Jesus. :)
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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You are stuck on that point and it doesn't help you. If anyone was to summarize 1 Cor 14, they would say Paul was against speaking of tongues in the church because it was all confusion not unless it was interpreted. So Paul was for something that everyone would understand.
What happens today is in total contrast of what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 14. People speak incomprehensible words and no one interprates. So im still right as per 1 Cor 14 to castigate todays tongues because no one understands them- Paul would have done the same.

Speaking in tongues is a gift and interpreting the spoken tongues is also a gift as per:

1 Cor 12:7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,a and to still another the interpretation of tongues

If you claim that speaking in tongues is a manifestation of the gift of HS and every Christian should do it, so is the ability to interpret those tongues and every christian should be able to interpret tongues- don;t you think so?

Praying in tongues (spirit praying on one's behalf) is a private affair and i have no issues with it, Paul didn't have any issues with it. Christians don't pray in public- when you pray, close yourself in your closet and pray privately. People praying privately should not be our concern - whether they use known or unknown language, it shouldn't concern the public and we shouldn't be discussing it here. And why should anyone shout when they are praying privately? they can as well pray silently in their spirit.
This is the context of praying in tongues or in the spirit:

Rom 8:25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words

I repeat, what we see in our churches today has nothing to do with God.

you cannot summarize 1cor 14 without chapters 12 & 13. they are known as unit chapters just like Matthew 5,6, and 7 or 1cor 11-14 also.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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Again, the person speaking in tongues is to be the one to interpret. [/quote]Again, I disagree. :)[/QUOTE]
1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Was Paul wrong? Confused? Befuddled? Contradicting himself?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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Not unless they are speaking in tongues when they shouldn't be. If they should be, God will provide an interpreter. ;) Hence, they will be hearing then in their own tongue.
SBG, you seem to just be making up what you think tongues and interpretation are, and how they are supposed to work.

Where does the Bible say "God will provide an interpreter"?
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Not sure why this would become a sticking point for us. Hope it doesn't anyway.
The most awesome and wondrous work of God is the cross, in my opinion. The entire OT speaks of Jesus over and over. I think it would be impossible to speak of the wondrous works of God and NOT mention Jesus. :)
That maybe be true however, were the Word of God is silent that is a good time not to make assumptions concerning it. in context to your point you said :

"Then no man at Pentecost heard the gospel being proclaimed in his own tongue and the church never began and the alarm clock will go off in a minute! :LOL: "

now explain how you did not want to this to become a sticking point?
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Again, the person speaking in tongues is to be the one to interpret.
Again, I disagree. :)[/QUOTE]
1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Was Paul wrong? Confused? Befuddled? Contradicting himself?[/QUOTE]

Paul was saying: I wish you all spoke in tongues, but I wish even more that you all prophesied.

Of course, some take pauls wishing that they all spoke in tongues as him saying: you do all speak in tongues, which to me is odd, because in another place he asks, do all speak in tongues?
Not sure about the "he" there. I'd have to look into it.
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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you do not understand authorial intent of Biblical context. God is the one who is in charge of His word. And it was the preaching of the Gospel message that led to the writings being recorded. This was Done by God and the Holy Spirit and his gifts recorded are not done away with because the Holy Spirt is eternal as are His gifts UNTIL Jesus returns as Paul was speaking of in 1cor 13:8 and in all his writings this was a normative..



I know you and I will never agree but for all who are seeing this debate I would like to say just think about what notuptome is saying. A modern translation of the Word of God is more important for Paul an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ , led by the Holy Spirit whose Job is to lead and guide; you into all truth. TO look for a modern writing of the word of God then see Jesus face to face. And remember Paul was a Jew what did face to faced mean to him? You would have to look at the context of veil- worship. Could all go behind the veil? No. The saved blood bought “Church” will . we shall see Him as HE is. Praise the Lord.
Let me spell this out for you so you have a chance to understand what I am saying. I said you need a modern English translation of what is being said in 1 Cor 13:12. You do not seem to know that the phrase translated for now we see through a glass darkly is old English for a mirror. Not a window but a mirror. Paul wrote under Holy Spirit inspiration but he did not write in English.

OT is related to the veil of the temple which was rent in twain. NT makes the holy of holies accessible to the believer where it was closed off to them in the OT. This goes directly to the that which is in part being done away.

Paul and the other apostles had seen Jesus face to face. Paul on the road to Emmaus and the others in the upper room. Jesus appeared to them in His glorified body.

The NT was the only thing in view that was not completed at the point in time Paul wrote the letters to the church at Corinth.

The Holy Spirit is with the church until the rapture. The Holy Spirit ministers in the church but three gifts have ended being replaced by the completion of Gods revelation our bible.

God has promised to supply all our needs. Not all our wants but our needs. Tongues are not needed because we have a complete written revelation of God. There will be no new prophesies because all have been given and recorded in our bible. Knowledge now is to be found on the pages of our bible with the Holy Spirit as our instructor into truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Not do not agree we are in the great trib . Matt 24-25 and other prophetic writings show many things ,

I do see :

1. The great falling "away" has happened and is happening

2Thess 2:3

"3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2. men lover of self 2tim 3:2 "For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, "

3. birth pains Matt 24:8 "All these are the beginning of birth pains. "
All these things you are talking about are happening and they have been happening since 2000 years ago. The falling away is on full speed even today with these fake tongues (yet they believe they are on track). By the time we hit the end of age there will be so many Christians yet not a believer- the reason it is said "the moon will be blood/the sun will be dark/The stars will fall. There will be no light of the world yet Christians are supposed to be the light of the world.

You need to understand what the great trib means, it's nothing more than; death by wars (sword), pestilences (diseases), famine (Natural disasters), Beasts of the earth (Accidents)- these are happening and have been happening since 2000 years ago. the only thing that makes the great trib more dangerous is the presence or reign of the antichrist (since 2000 years ago), because if anyone dies not in the Lord, will be tormented in hell fire forever because they are of the antichrist.

Trust me.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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That maybe be true however, were the Word of God is silent that is a good time not to make assumptions concerning it. in context to your point you said :

"Then no man at Pentecost heard the gospel being proclaimed in his own tongue and the church never began and the alarm clock will go off in a minute! :LOL: "

now explain how you did not want to this to become a sticking point?
When I make a funny comment, it isn't with the intent of making it a sticking point. It's with the intent of pointing out the funniness (to me) of something.

If anyone wants to think they heard the works of God being proclaimed in their own language but did not hear the gospel that saves in their own language, I'm fine with that. But it does say 3,000 were then saved, and without hearing the gospel in his own language, can a man be saved...?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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You are stuck on that point and it doesn't help you. If anyone was to summarize 1 Cor 14, they would say Paul was against speaking of tongues in the church because it was all confusion not unless it was interpreted.
That is flatly not true.

Paul was saying that tongues, when spoken out loud in the church, must be interpreted, so the church can be edified.

So Paul was for something that everyone would understand.
Which is why tongues, when spoken in public, must be interpreted.

What happens today is in total contrast of what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 14. People speak incomprehensible words and no one interprates.
That is unfortunately true in some Pentecostal churches.

So im still right as per 1 Cor 14 to castigate todays tongues because no one understands them- Paul would have done the same.
No, you are dead wrong.

Speaking in tongues is a gift and interpreting the spoken tongues is also a gift as per:

1 Cor 12:7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,a and to still another the interpretation of tongues
Both (in fact all nine) are manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit. In the church, different people do different things.

If you claim that speaking in tongues is a manifestation of the gift of HS and every Christian should do it, so is the ability to interpret those tongues and every christian should be able to interpret tongues- don;t you think so?
Absolutely!

Praying in tongues (spirit praying on one's behalf) is a private affair and i have no issues with it
Earlier you flatly stated that all tongues spoken today are fake.

Paul didn't have any issues with it. Christians don't pray in public- when you pray, close yourself in your closet and pray privately.
So nobody in your church prays out loud? All those places in Acts where people prayed out loud were heresy? FYI, in Matt 6:5-7, Jesus is contrasting the way the Pharisees prayed, loudly, in public, seeking approval of men.

People praying privately should not be our concern - whether they use known or unknown language, it shouldn't concern the public and we shouldn't be discussing it here.
Again, earlier you condemned all speaking in tongues.

And why should anyone shout when they are praying privately?
When they're praying privately they should not shout.

they can as well pray silently in their spirit.
This is the context of praying in tongues or in the spirit:

Rom 8:25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words

I repeat, what we see in our churches today has nothing to do with God.
I repeat, you do not know what you are talking about.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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When I make a funny comment, it isn't with the intent of making it a sticking point. It's with the intent of pointing out the funniness (to me) of something.

If anyone wants to think they heard the works of God being proclaimed in their own language but did not hear the gospel that saves in their own language, I'm fine with that. But it does say 3,000 were then saved, and without hearing the gospel in his own language, can a man be saved...?
I got it. God sending His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to redeem mankind probably counts as a might work of God. At least to some of us.

Peters message that led to the salvation of 3000 souls no doubt took all that was said and demonstrated that this very same Jesus Whom they had crucified was indeed Gods Redeemer sent to Israel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Nov 12, 2015
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have you wittnessed these gifts before Stunnedbygra ?
I have never witnessed anyone interpreting at all. The only tongues I have witnessed was with no one interpreting at all. That is why I believed I was witnessing a scene gone amok. Because it says to keep silent unless there is interpretation. And it also says two or three but I heard and saw dozens speaking in tongues all at once. And I also suspected some were pretending, but I'm not sure of that.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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83
When I make a funny comment, it isn't with the intent of making it a sticking point. It's with the intent of pointing out the funniness (to me) of something.

If anyone wants to think they heard the works of God being proclaimed in their own language but did not hear the gospel that saves in their own language, I'm fine with that. But it does say 3,000 were then saved, and without hearing the gospel in his own language, can a man be saved...?
After the apostles spoke in tongues, Peter stood up and gave his sermon in the language most all of them understood, likely Hebrew.