Baptism and holy spirit

Noose · Jun 13, 2018

Then there's something wrong with your bible- if it says salvation is a gift that you ask for.
If salvation is a gift that people ask for, then it means they ask while they are still sinners so that when it is granted, they are saved- and then you try to use the analogy of the son asking the Father; is this not a contradiction?

My bible says you were elected before the foundations of the world/ before you were born/ before you knew the meaning of the word gift/ before you even knew how to ask.

and precisely, my bible says:
Rom 5:8 But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

John 16:23 In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

I suspect that upto now, you have not asked anything in the name of Jesus, so if you have received anything, it might not be from the Father (God), it must have been from somewhere else (insert, speaking in tongues).

shrume · Jun 13, 2018

Noose said:

Then there's something wrong with your bible- if it says salvation is a gift that you ask for.
If salvation is a gift that people ask for, then it means they ask while they are still sinners so that when it is granted, they are saved- and then you try to use the analogy of the son asking the Father; is this not a contradiction?

My bible says you were elected before the foundations of the world/ before you were born/ before you knew the meaning of the word gift/ before you even knew how to ask.

and precisely, my bible says:
Rom 5:8 But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

John 16:23 In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

I suspect that upto now, you have not asked anything in the name of Jesus, so if you have received anything, it might not be from the Father (God), it must have been from somewhere else (insert, speaking in tongues).

So not only are you a rabid cessationist, but you're also a Calvinist? Do you believe God pre-determined who will be saved, and that people have no choice in the matter?

Noose · Jun 13, 2018

shrume said:

I have no idea what a rabid cessationist or even a Calvinist means.
I believe God is timeless, so to Him, there's no choice that we make- it is already known even before we are born, yet to us it is a choice that we make at a certain point in time and even so, God is the one who guides the person.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit — fruit that will remain — so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.

John 6:37 Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away.

Yes to us it is choice but to Him it is not.

CS1 · Jun 13, 2018

Noose said:

True, Jesus is our example yet we do not no the answer when we pray. That's why when we pray , we say "let not my will but your will...",
It means the will of the Father is going to be done anyway despite our expectations and the person who does this prayer is open to any outcome.

It also means that the gifts can not operate in us the way it operated in the disciples. If a faith healer says "let not my will but your will be done.." when praying for a sick person, what difference does it make when a normal person like you or me say the same to the sick person?

The HS today is to give us understanding and also to comfort us because we go through a lot of agony. I'm not saying He doesn't heal, He does but on a private level, i have been healed without stepping a foot in a hospital and without anyone laying their hands on me- just like that.

The reason the disciples did so many miracles and the signs were so rampant was that the gospel be preached to all nations - it helped the people believe. Now that the gospel has been preached, there's no reason for someone to call themselves faith healers and say they have the gift of healing/ there;s no prophesy either- all has been done, only patience and perseverance and understanding is what is asked of us.

so you say overtime you pray dogmatically Thy will be done? Ok. And yet you ask because you don't know His will? or do you ask HIM for what HE says yes to? The Holy Spirit heals on private levels ? wow so you control how the Spirit of God heals ? can you prove that point scripturally ?

CS1 · Jun 13, 2018

Noose said:

really people do not ask HUH? 1cor 12, 13 and 14 says to desire them and seek them. You can ask for a gift , you can't EARN and gift.

I asked my parents for gifts ll the time

this is what Jesus said in Luke 11:13 in context to asking for the Holy Spirit . Please explain how Jesus got it wrong here ?

CS1 · Jun 13, 2018

Noose said:

you are out of line and wrong and I think you are a troll too.

CS1 · Jun 13, 2018

Noose said:

Then there's something wrong with your bible- if it says salvation is a gift that you ask for.
If salvation is a gift that people ask for, then it means they ask while they are still sinners so that when it is granted, they are saved- and then you try to use the analogy of the son asking the Father; is this not a contradiction?

My bible says you were elected before the foundations of the world/ before you were born/ before you knew the meaning of the word gift/ before you even knew how to ask.

and precisely, my bible says:
Rom 5:8 But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

John 16:23 In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

I suspect that upto now, you have not asked anything in the name of Jesus, so if you have received anything, it might not be from the Father (God), it must have been from somewhere else (insert, speaking in tongues).

you assume much and are wrong .

CS1 · Jun 13, 2018

Noose said:

I'm talking about raising of the dead before the resurrection of the saints or every dead during judgement day.
If the same spirit enables the ability to raise the dead (like the apostles) is the same that gave tongues to them then, then the 'spirit' that gives the tongues today should be able to give the ability to raise the dead today. If not, at least give me an explanation (scriptural) of what you think transpired so that we have a huge gap from then to now.

let me ask you this can man bring back a person from the dead ? Please answer

CS1 · Jun 13, 2018

Noose said:

Then there's something wrong with your bible- if it says salvation is a gift that you ask for.
If salvation is a gift that people ask for, then it means they ask while they are still sinners so that when it is granted, they are saved- and then you try to use the analogy of the son asking the Father; is this not a contradiction?

My bible says you were elected before the foundations of the world/ before you were born/ before you knew the meaning of the word gift/ before you even knew how to ask.

and precisely, my bible says:
Rom 5:8 But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

John 16:23 In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

I suspect that upto now, you have not asked anything in the name of Jesus, so if you have received anything, it might not be from the Father (God), it must have been from somewhere else (insert, speaking in tongues).

Oh Ok a calvinist, elitist , type that explains everything now

shrume · Jun 13, 2018

Noose said:

A cessationist believes the "gifts" of the Holy Spirit have ceased. You have made it obvious that is what you believe. You think all the "gifts" of the Spirit being seen in churches today are fake. A Calvinist believes God is in control of everything that happens, that he determined whom He will save from before the foundation of the world, that people CANNOT come to Christ unless God first enables them. There are slight variations on that, but that's the gist of Calvinism.

I do not believe that is true.

God wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet 3:9), He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways, and live (Eze 33:11).

Jesus Christ was figuratively slain from before the foundation of the World.

Jesus Christ chose his 12 disciples.

The Father gives to Jesus all who choose to believe.

I believe that it is.

Noose · Jun 13, 2018

CS1 said:

Do i pray dogmatically? No.

Matt 6:
7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9“This, then, is how you should pray:

“ ‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,a
but deliver us from the evil one.b ’

If i have a need, i say "if it be your will, do this and that or let it be this or that..."because i'm open to any outcome and whatever the outcome, that is the will of the Father- i accept it with thanks giving. This is how we follow Jesus' lead.
When you go to pray, you don't "i want this and that, do this or that..."

John 3: 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

John 14:15“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

notuptome · Jun 13, 2018

CS1 said:

Luke 11:13 is not asking for the Holy Spirit. It is asking the Father for salvation and the Holy Spirit is given to those who are saved. Every believer receives the Holy Spirit when they are converted. It is the Holy Spirit that seals them unto the day of redemption.

Corinthians says that the Holy Spirit gives the gifts as He willeth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Noose · Jun 13, 2018

CS1 said:

A gift is only a gift because you have not asked for, once you ask for, it ceases to be a gift. If you ask and is given, then the other person complies to some instruction which came in the form of asking- it is compliance, not a gift.
This is just English (and i'm not even an English speaker)- there's no English dictionary that was based on what you and your parents did. All those things that your parent bought for you voluntarily without you asking were gifts but the others were compliance to your instructions.

Biblically- God is God, He doesn't comply to instructions. He has given us free will so that we can actually ask in prayer and it would appear that He complies but it is not so- He already knows what we need before even ask and the answer was ready before we were even born. Again, it is the will of God that happens every time.

About 1 Cor 12/13/14

1 Cor 12:7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,a and to still another the interpretation of tongues.b 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.....

15Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

So your desire for greater gifts can not change the will of God, it is still the will of God that is done.

Luke 11:13 So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

Holy spirit is a promise to believers and a promise is never asked but is fulfilled. The context of the word ask here is not in the sense as to request just like the gifts are never requested but given. The context of the word ask here is with regards to 'need'. In another passage, we see Jesus say that the Father already knows what you need before you ask- so He gives the holy spirit because the believers need the HS.
If you think the word ask applies only to physical request, then what about the numb & deaf- don't they have place in the kingdom of God. But if it is a need (in the mind), then the promise will just come in automatically as long as they believe.

Do you understand this verse:

John 16: 23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

In that day, they will no longer ask because anything they ask the Father will give them.
It is clear here that the ask is a need, they won't need anything in that day because their needs will be met before they raise a question. And this is how gifts are issued.

Noose · Jun 13, 2018

CS1 said:

No i'm not

Noose · Jun 13, 2018

CS1 said:

No i'm not

Ralph- · Jun 13, 2018

shrume said:

I had the feeling he'd go down the Calvinist trail.

shrume · Jun 13, 2018

Noose said:

If God's will is always done, why bother praying?

Noose · Jun 13, 2018

shrume said:

When you say gifts in the churches, do you mean rampant speaking of incomprehensible language? because if there's a healer today, they'll try their gift in a hospital/ those that can raise the dead would try going into a mog/ prophesy ended with John, now their interpretion of prophesy which is lacking in the churches/

The gifts in the 1st century were for the world/public, so that they believe. Did Paul ever prophesy to Peter or Peter healed Paul or the apostles one to another, did miracles within themselves?
They all had the Holy spirit within them - so if Paul was sick, why would He require Peter to come and lay hands on him? he would be healed and if Peter had a query about a prophesy, the HS would give him direction. So what they did was for the public and the public extended to the first century churches because they needed much guidance and these miracles to believe and it would go on as long as the antichrist was not on the scene.

During these last days where antichrist rules and comes with fakes signs, it all changes. There can not be a fake sign here and a genuine sign there- it brings total confusion, it is all fake antichrist signs so that whoever believes is doomed and will have no excuse.
In this era, the HS is within believers and what he does is not for public consumption/ not for the world.

John 14:15“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you.

Luke 17:20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.

Noose · Jun 13, 2018

shrume said:

Prayer is a need.
Do you think God only works for people with the ability to speak? Do the deaf and numb have a chance with God?

shrume · Jun 13, 2018

Noose said:

I'm speaking of the manifestation of the gift of the Holy Spirit called speaking in tongues.

Tongues are incomprehensible to the person speaking (1 Cor 14:2). And since people who meet together generally all speak the same language, they will be incomprehensible to others, as well. That's why Paul instructs that when spoken out loud in the church, tongues must always be interpreted.

Baptism and holy spirit

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