Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
To use all you have been given to glorify God.
And Matthew 5 in the sermon on the mount tells us to let our good works be seen of men so that they will glorify God. So by our faith and our good works, men will know that we are people of God and it will glority God. The hope is that people seeing this outpour of good works will want to be a part of it, and will be converted, taught the gospel and baptized, just like Jesus told his apostles to do.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
The workers for theme song.......Based upon the MANY that boast of their right to enter based upon their working for dogma and claim to know JESUS......

We'll work till JESUS comes
We'll work till JESUS comes
We'll work till JESUS comes
And then get cast away

or

AMAZING works that I have done
That did not save a wretch like meeeeeeeee
I once was LOST and still not found
Because I trusted NOT in THEE.........

You guys peddle the SAME DOGMA that JESUS speaks to....he said....

MANY will come before me in that DAY saying, "LORD, LORD, have we NOT done many wonderful works in your name, have we not prophesied in your name, have we not cast out demons in your name." THEN I WILL PROFESS unto them that I NEVER knew you, depart from me ye workers of iniquity.....

LET US EVALUATE and RECAP....

THE WORKERS FOR...

a. BELIEVE they KNOW Christ just like the MANY mentioned above.....CHECK
b. BELIEVE their works help earn their right to enter the kingdom like the MANY above....CHECK
c. BLEND BELIEF and WORKS like the MANY above as their gospel.....CHECK

YEP...same dogma and same result.....NO ENTRANCE because your gospel is false..........take it up with JESUS!
Because none of us boast of our right to enter based upon our works, does that make you a truth teller or do you tell falsehoods.
Which is it decon.
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
first you ignore many of my questions....

then you accuse me of saying you do not even have the Holy Spirit with you...


whatever ben

i have no idea what the state of your heart is or if you have the Holy spirit

i only know many of you conclusions are from your own understanding and not the Holy spirit because they are wrong...

please stop pretending im out to get you


im not

Is a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes still a believer?




JPT
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Unless he works in us to both will and do His good pleasure (imputed righteousness ) there will be no fruit of His work . The fruit of his Spirit working in us is self control . The fruit of our spirit is to cry out for mercy. He must increase as we decrease.

If he has begun the wonderful works of salvation he will finish it till the end .Almighty God does not start something he does not finish

Many have those wonderful works in respect to their own selves. Christ calls them workers of iniquity. He informs them .I never knew you
If Jesus is working in us to produce good works, you would have no problem with that, right?
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
Because none of us boast of our right to enter based upon our works, does that make you a truth teller or do you tell falsehoods.
Which is it decon.

That would be the definition of a liar.


all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8




JPT
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
VCO says:
SALVATION COMES FIRST.
After you are SAVED, GOD's LOVE poured into our hearts by the HOLY SPIRIT, will produce a harvest of good works.
Do you have a bible scripture that says what you personally just said?

If you choose not to walk in the good works that Christ has prepared for you ahead of time, then what?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
So now we have love, faith and hope. The greatest of theses is love.

I. Could give all I have to the poor and sacrifice my body, bu if I do not have love it is worthless.
You are exactly right, but if you have love for God and his admonitions to help the poor and needy, you will have EL. If you think you have all the love for God and you do not give to the poor and sacrifice your body, you will be like tinkling brass, and not have EL.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
That is what Jesus taught.


JPT
Uh huh you did read the "whole chapter" right?(which ever gospel you chose)
It is not mentioned of their "salvation" in exact terms in their "believing" but what is called into question is their "actions" telling of who stayed "true" to God's word and served "HONESTLY" and who only "accepted" God's word "when it suited them" regardless of "no mention" of salvation in the passage it is "clear" that those on "good ground" which in an honest and good heart,having heard the word,keep it,and bring forth fruit with patience...
Are those who either are saved or on their way to accepting salvation for instead of "believing" what they would like to hear" they actually "beseech" and "accept God's word" in "entirety" not "in portion" and do so in "good conscience".
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Is a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes still a believer?




JPT
huh?

how can you be a believer if you prove you are not through unbelief?


4102. pistis
Strong's Concordance
pistis: faith, faithfulness​
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

4100. pisteuó
Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust​
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.




clearly if you say you believe
and even think you believe in something

but you have no confidence
no trust
no FAITH in it

then what you truely believe is revealed by what your confidence is in


so no... they would not be a believer they would be a pretender who was exposed




if someone at a store asks me "do you know how to get to my house from here"

and i ask them
do you have faith i will tell you the truth?

and they think "sure why not"
and tell me "absolutely"

then i say to them "you just need to go west"

and they say "thank you so so so much i believe you"

they are smiling
and feeling happy
and thinking "what a nice man he is to help me get home from here"

they finish their shopping

and leave the store

then decide

"eh i know he said west.... but honestly i think i go south to get home"

then they go south and get lost.....




did they believe me?
did they have confidence in me?
did they have trust in me?


based on the definition of belief
id say they thought they believed me
but nah

they actually trusted themself
and believed themself​
 
J

joefizz

Guest
You are exactly right, but if you have love for God and his admonitions to help the poor and needy, you will have EL. If you think you have all the love for God and you do not give to the poor and sacrifice your body, you will be like tinkling brass, and not have EL.
So basically you are saying that only "one role" is what "everyone" is to do...
How then do we serve? for if everyone does just the same as each other then what profit is this to God/Jesus?
Will there not be those who serve him whom give to the poor,preach,teach,help,lead,rebuke?
Each one of us is to serve a "role" not a "pattern" that others follow, quite a difference.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
huh?

how can you be a believer if you prove you are not through unbelief?


4102. pistis
Strong's Concordance​
pistis: faith, faithfulness

Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

4100. pisteuó
Strong's Concordance​
pisteuó: to believe, entrust

Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.




clearly if you say you believe
and even think you believe in something

but you have no confidence
no trust
no FAITH in it

then what you truely believe is revealed by what your confidence is in


so no... they would not be a believer they would be a pretender who was exposed




if someone at a store asks me "do you know how to get to my house from here"

and i ask them
do you have faith i will tell you the truth?

and they think "sure why not"
and tell me "absolutely"

then i say to them "you just need to go west"

and they say "thank you so so so much i believe you"

they are smiling
and feeling happy
and thinking "what a nice man he is to help me get home from here"

they finish their shopping

and leave the store

then decide

"eh i know he said west.... but honestly i think i go south to get home"

then they go south and get lost.....




did they believe me?
did they have confidence in me?
did they have trust in me?


based on the definition of belief
id say they thought they believed me
but nah

they actually trusted themself
and believed themself​
Apparently you can "jump the fence" between belief and unbelief to your heart's content,no need for honesty or sincerity to be saved or to serve God/Jesus just tell him "I believe","now I don't" "Wait I believe now" "nope still don't" "this time I believe for sure" "just kidding" any idea why God/Jesus get's "tired" of hearing such lies "over and over" anyone?
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Apparently you can "jump the fence" between belief and unbelief to your heart's content,no need for honesty or sincerity to be saved or to serve God/Jesus just tell him "I believe","now I don't" "Wait I believe now" "nope still don't" "this time I believe for sure" "just kidding" any idea why God/Jesus get's "tired" of hearing such lies "over and over" anyone?

this is the conclusion many revolving door salvationists seem to come to reagardless of what the bible says about it:unsure:
 
J

joefizz

Guest
Apparently you can "jump the fence" between belief and unbelief to your heart's content,no need for honesty or sincerity to be saved or to serve God/Jesus just tell him "I believe","now I don't" "Wait I believe now" "nope still don't" "this time I believe for sure" "just kidding" any idea why God/Jesus get's "tired" of hearing such lies "over and over" anyone?
might as well count each jump...lol
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,585
113
What does this have to do with those who Jesus plainly said believed?
. . .
JPT


It is the Difference between ONLY knowing about JESUS in your mind between your ears, acknowledging that the stories about Jesus are true. Which DOES NOT SAVE, because EVEN the DEMONS in the domoniacs at Gadera Believed that Much.

AND really KNOWING JESUS IN YOU HEART, in your BORN AGAIN Human Spirit, as YOUR intimate, LOVING , Personal LORD meaning MASTER, AND sincerely LOVING HIM. That experience is VERY REAL, and ONLY THAT, WILL EQUAL SALVATION.

The ones that NEVER NEW HIM, yet they were totally involved in doing works, thinking that by their works they have earned so-called SALAVATION, have deceived themselves into believing Less than what HE considers KNOWING HIM:

Matthew 7:19-23 (HCSB)
19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’


NOTICE: every ONE of those considered themselves to be Christians, but they NEVER Knew HIM in their HEARTS, only in their Heads.

It is the difference between the The 5 VIRGINS that were READY and Watching and Waiting for their BRIDEGROOM to Come, with the Holy Spirit in their HEARTS, and the 5 Churchgoers, who Never got ready with Holy Spirit not in their Hearts.


Matthew 25:1-13 (HCSB)
1 Then the kingdom of heaven will be like 10 virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the groom.
2 Five of them were foolish and five were sensible.
3 When the foolish took their lamps, they didn’t take olive oil with them.
4 But the sensible ones took oil in their flasks with their lamps.
5 Since the groom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6 “In the middle of the night there was a shout: ‘Here’s the groom! Come out to meet him.’
7 “Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.
8 But the foolish ones said to the sensible ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’
9 “The sensible ones answered, ‘No, there won’t be enough for us and for you. Go instead to those who sell, and buy oil for yourselves.’
10 “When they had gone to buy some, the groom arrived. Then those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.
11 “Later the rest of the virgins also came and said, ‘Master, master, open up for us!’
12 “But he replied, ‘I assure you: I do not know you!’
13 “Therefore be alert, because you don’t know either the day or the hour.


NOTICE: The 5 Foolish ones DID NOT BOTHER TO GET READY FOR THEIR BRIDEGROOM. The Oil In their Lamps is the HOLY SPIRIT actually IN OUR HEARTS. Yes, all 10 were called Virgins or Churchgoers, BUT only 5 actually had the HOLY SPIRIT filling their Lamps.


John 3:1-7 (HCSB)
1 There was a man from the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Him at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher, for no one could perform these signs You do unless God were with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.


NOTICE: That NO ONE gets to go to HEAVEN, without his or her human spirit being BORN AGAIN, into Eternal Life. No matter how many Church Services you attend, and no matter How many times you were Baptized in water. YES, BORN AGAIN, is a VERY REAL EXPERIENCE! You will know when it happens, because something alive will be IN YOU, which is the HOLY SPIRIT, AND YOUR ETERNALLY ALIVE HUMAN SPIRIT.

Did you ever sincerely MOURN and WEEP over your UTTERLY SINFUL LIFESTYLE?

Do you KNOW your Human Spirit is eternally alive in YOU?

Do you Sincerely KNOW JESUS IN YOUR HEART, as Lord meaning MASTER?

Do you LOVE JESUS MORE THAN ANY ONE ELSE on this PLANET?


If you can answer YES, to all four of those Questions, then you are one of the 5 Wise Virgins.

If not, you are still are ONLY a Churchgoer, that is unsaved.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
first you ignore many of my questions....

then you accuse me of saying you do not even have the Holy Spirit with you...


whatever ben

i have no idea what the state of your heart is or if you have the Holy spirit

i only know many of you conclusions are from your own understanding and not the Holy spirit because they are wrong...

please stop pretending im out to get you


im not
My conclusions come from the bible, and if they are different from your conclusions, it does not automatically mean that my conclusions are from my own understanding. And since the Holy Spirit is with me, I would not be convinced that my conclusions are wrong. I will admit they are different from yours.

I have never felt you are out to get me, but when you say my conclusions are wrong, and it is because I do not have the Holy Spirit, you realize I can accuse you of the exact same thing.

On this thread there are about 4 people who believe similar to me, and about 4 people that believe similar to you. What can we say about that situation?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Correct, but you were saved the MOMENT you first Believed, BEFORE YOU DID ANY WORKS. Works are Part of the LOVE that GOD had the HOLY SPIRIT POUR INTO OUR HEARTS. Rom. 5:5
Remember that you said, "but you were saved the MOMENT you first Believed, BEFORE YOU DID ANY WORKS".
 
J

joefizz

Guest
It is the Difference between ONLY knowing about JESUS in your mind between your ears, acknowledging that the stories about Jesus are true. Which DOES NOT SAVE, because EVEN the DEMONS in the domoniacs at Gadera Believed that Much.

AND really KNOWING JESUS IN YOU HEART, in your BORN AGAIN Human Spirit, as YOUR intimate, LOVING , Personal LORD meaning MASTER, AND sincerely LOVING HIM. That experience is VERY REAL, and ONLY THAT, WILL EQUAL SALVATION.

The ones that NEVER NEW HIM, yet they were totally involved in doing works, thinking that by their works they have earned so-called SALAVATION, have deceived themselves into believing Less than what HE considers KNOWING HIM:

Matthew 7:19-23 (HCSB)
19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’


NOTICE: every ONE of those considered themselves to be Christians, but they NEVER Knew HIM in their HEARTS, only in their Heads.

It is the difference between the The 5 VIRGINS that were READY and Watching and Waiting for their BRIDEGROOM to Come, with the Holy Spirit in their HEARTS, and the 5 Churchgoers, who Never got ready with Holy Spirit not in their Hearts.


Matthew 25:1-13 (HCSB)
1 Then the kingdom of heaven will be like 10 virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the groom.
2 Five of them were foolish and five were sensible.
3 When the foolish took their lamps, they didn’t take olive oil with them.
4 But the sensible ones took oil in their flasks with their lamps.
5 Since the groom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6 “In the middle of the night there was a shout: ‘Here’s the groom! Come out to meet him.’
7 “Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.
8 But the foolish ones said to the sensible ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’
9 “The sensible ones answered, ‘No, there won’t be enough for us and for you. Go instead to those who sell, and buy oil for yourselves.’
10 “When they had gone to buy some, the groom arrived. Then those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.
11 “Later the rest of the virgins also came and said, ‘Master, master, open up for us!’
12 “But he replied, ‘I assure you: I do not know you!’
13 “Therefore be alert, because you don’t know either the day or the hour.


NOTICE: The 5 Foolish ones DID NOT BOTHER TO GET READY FOR THEIR BRIDEGROOM. The Oil In their Lamps is the HOLY SPIRIT actually IN OUR HEARTS. Yes, all 10 were called Virgins or Churchgoers, BUT only 5 actually had the HOLY SPIRIT filling their Lamps.


John 3:1-7 (HCSB)
1 There was a man from the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Him at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher, for no one could perform these signs You do unless God were with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.


NOTICE: That NO ONE gets to go to HEAVEN, without his or her human spirit being BORN AGAIN, into Eternal Life. No matter how many Church Services you attend, and no matter How many times you were Baptized in water. YES, BORN AGAIN, is a VERY REAL EXPERIENCE! You will know when it happens, because something alive will be IN YOU, which is the HOLY SPIRIT, AND YOUR ETERNALLY ALIVE HUMAN SPIRIT.

Did you ever sincerely MOURN and WEEP over your UTTERLY SINFUL LIFESTYLE?

Do you KNOW your Human Spirit is eternally alive in YOU?

Do you Sincerely KNOW JESUS IN YOUR HEART, as Lord meaning MASTER?

Do you LOVE JESUS MORE THAN ANY ONE ELSE on this PLANET?


If you can answer YES, to all four of those Questions, then you are one of the 5 Wise Virgins.

If not, you are still are ONLY a Churchgoer, that is unsaved.
This may be the best point I've seen yet,because indeed any person can go to church to "hear" about God's word in some form,but "believing honestly" involves more than just "hearing" God's word,too many people are "content" in just "listening to a preacher/pastor" instead of "reading the bible for themselves" it's not as simple as just hearing about Jesus and then saying "ok I believe in Jesus now so I'm saved" because there is no "honesty or humbling" involved in that.
To be saved "for real" Jesus says you need only "believe" but many don't "understand" how actually "tough" that can be because it means this...
1.admitting you are a sinner and need Jesus in all honesty
2.be willing to have Jesus lead you to do right instead of by your own knowledge putting pride in yourself aside
3.opening your heart to where you actually "want" to help others even those who you at times have had problems with particularly be "willing" to share God's word and salvation through Jesus with them if nothing else(you may not be able to care openly but at least try for God/Jesus or better yet let him guide you on what to say with those you feel you may still resent)
4.accepting that all Jesus did and was and is,is all "True" for there will be those that will "lie" about him through doctrines,beliefs,and twisted scriptures to confound you into "doubting" him in some regard or at the least "compromise" Jesus is never to be "compromised" as anything different than he was and is otherwise a person's faith is misguided.
5.Be willing to "change",many think that just by accepting Jesus and the Holy spirit that they will "change" entirely overnight or be learned in God's word but this isn't quite accurate,true enough the old you is buried with Jesus effectively through accepting Jesus as well as water baptism but if you don't seek to change then there is only so much you will do,growing in spirit and knowledge doesn't happen without a willingness to be "molded" into a new being, it can be just as tough as letting go of a "fortune" because your will joins with God/Jesus and things you once liked you'll not see as you once did as you move forward.