Speaking in tongues

[notuptome]

I disregard your bias and you have used one verse out of context as you have a habit of doing. you have not proven 1cor 13:8-10

that which is "perfect" is the bible as you think. and Mt 18:16 you are using to rebuke, and justify your opinion. Shame on you . try bring Biblical context to your position to support your claim concerning 1cor 13:8-10. Instead of insults and underlying comments .

LOL My bias LOL. I don't need to prove scripture as God has placed His approval upon His word.

I have shown you that the NT was not completed when Paul penned 1 Cor 13:8. The NT made clear the things that were promised in the OT. Hidden things now made manifest in the NT. With a complete NT there was no longer a need to have signs attest to the authority of the apostles and disciples. The authority of Gods word is established as it declared from heaven.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[CS1]

Regardless of the size of their church, it is the mindset that is the same. You are simply turning a blind eye to the glaring hole in pentecostal logic. Labeling modern events as on par with what was happening in the 1st century is their undoing.

No it is not. You are not an authority on this topic, and your insults are not proof of your position. The context of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are found in 1cor chapter 12, 13, and 14. You do not believe they are for today. Ok no problem here but you have no Biblical support to your claim it is opinionated and conjecture. We know you are not going to see it that way and that is fine but you, result to name calling attacks speak about the devil etc… just move on. I would agree with you on many things but you are very rude and so have others. You like to bully, as do others I like to test the spirit to see what comes out. The post you have done are right here for all to see .
What I agree with you about even if you arer wrong in how you bring it :

. Error in how tongues are used
. Foolishness in things that are taught about the gifts of the Holy Spirit
. yes the flesh can be involved

The difference between you and I is I see where in the writings of 1cor 12, 13, and 14 and many other scriptures the correction of the errors and continuing of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. You do not see that and you have only human reasoning to use and one verse in the Bible from 1cor 13:8-10 to show the gifts of the Holy Spirit are done away with.

 

[DJ2]

I disregard your bias and you have used one verse out of context as you have a habit of doing. you have not proven 1cor 13:8-10

that which is "perfect" is the bible as you think. and Mt 18:16 you are using to rebuke, and justify your opinion. Shame on you . try bring Biblical context to your position to support your claim concerning 1cor 13:8-10. Instead of insults and underlying comments .

There is no reason to biblical debate the merits of modern day "tongues" until it can be proven that their utterances are anything more then babble.

You see insults under every rock and post.
For a moderator you have rather thin skin.

 

[CS1]

LOL My bias LOL. I don't need to prove scripture as God has placed His approval upon His word.

I have shown you that the NT was not completed when Paul penned 1 Cor 13:8. The NT made clear the things that were promised in the OT. Hidden things now made manifest in the NT. With a complete NT there was no longer a need to have signs attest to the authority of the apostles and disciples. The authority of Gods word is established as it declared from heaven.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

LOL Paul knew the "New Testament " this is why you are in error Jesus is the NEW Testament . When Jesus said Mt 5:18 you forget HE is the Fulfiller of the law ? I find it funny you overlook John 14 and 16 where Jesus giving His instruction to the disciples and did not mention the great importance of a new writing to come to them.

John 14: 6, 9-11, 15-18,26-27

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.



15 “If you love Me, [d]keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.



26 But the [g]Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be

 

[CS1]

There is no reason to biblical debate the merits of modern day "tongues" until it can be proven that their utterances are anything more then babble.

You see insults under every rock and post.
For a moderator you have rather thin skin.

no I have a good skin and more long suffering then you know. as you were told I do not have to prove anything to you . You are the one who is saying the gifts have ended , yet you have not any Biblical ref to that claim. you want your human intellect gratified . it is not my job to make you agree it is your job to prove how the Biblical understanding of 1cor 12, 13, and 14 have ceased. you have not done so. If you are saying you need to see one speak in tongues , that is you. I believe the context of the scriptures as they are given even if I never saw the dead raised. that is were you and I differ.

 

[Kavik]

"Wrong “modern tongues”: is a false narrative created by those who oppose the gift of tongues for today. They think the gift of tongues was made up by those in 1901 .

This is because of the bias they have. Even in Pentecostal doctrine the event is taught from the word of God. Those who think it is stopped use only one VERSE in the New Testament which they think once the bible was put together the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased. 1cor 13:8-1"

I would have to respectfully argue that it’s the other way around - If the history of the Pentecost movement is examined, one fact is very clear: at some point between 1906 and 1907, Pentecostal/Charismatic leaders were compelled to re-examine the narrative of Scripture with respect to “tongues”. The reason for this re-examination was that it quickly became embarrassingly obvious that their original supposition, xenoglossy, certainly wasn’t what they were producing.

This forced a serious theological dilemma — As a whole, either the Pentecostal movement would have to admit it was wrong about “tongues”, or the modern experience needed to be completely redefined. It seems the latter option was chosen.

The resulting implicit theology however was not a synthesis of revelation and philosophy, but rather a synthesis of trying to make sense of the modern “tongues experience” in light of the narrative of Scripture. A way to legitimize and justify the modern phenomenon by ‘proofing’ it in the Bible. The problem with this however, was an obvious overwhelming absence therein of anything resembling modern tongues.

Call it what you will, but for this group of Christians, the result was a virtual re-definition of scripture with respect to the understanding and justification of modern “tongues”; a re-interpretation of select texts to fit the modern practice/connotation of what ”tongues” (i.e. what they were doing) was perceived to be.

I am neither a so-called ‘cessationist’ nor a ‘continuationist’ – I do not identify with either term; in fact, I had never heard the two terms until just late in 2016. Cessationist vs, non-cessationist is really a false dichotomy; gifts ceasing is mentioned only once in the Bible in one short sentence, and the remainder of the Bible is totally silent on the matter. The one place it is mentioned is rarely taken into context of the entire passage.

As far as I’m concerned, quite frankly, since the Biblical reference of “tongues” is to real, rational languages, obviously “tongues” haven’t “ceased”; people still speak.

 

[CS1]

"Wrong “modern tongues”: is a false narrative created by those who oppose the gift of tongues for today. They think the gift of tongues was made up by those in 1901 .

This is because of the bias they have. Even in Pentecostal doctrine the event is taught from the word of God. Those who think it is stopped use only one VERSE in the New Testament which they think once the bible was put together the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased. 1cor 13:8-1"

I would have to respectfully argue that it’s the other way around - If the history of the Pentecost movement is examined, one fact is very clear: at some point between 1906 and 1907, Pentecostal/Charismatic leaders were compelled to re-examine the narrative of Scripture with respect to “tongues”. The reason for this re-examination was that it quickly became embarrassingly obvious that their original supposition, xenoglossy, certainly wasn’t what they were producing.

This forced a serious theological dilemma — As a whole, either the Pentecostal movement would have to admit it was wrong about “tongues”, or the modern experience needed to be completely redefined. It seems the latter option was chosen.

The resulting implicit theology however was not a synthesis of revelation and philosophy, but rather a synthesis of trying to make sense of the modern “tongues experience” in light of the narrative of Scripture. A way to legitimize and justify the modern phenomenon by ‘proofing’ it in the Bible. The problem with this however, was an obvious overwhelming absence therein of anything resembling modern tongues.

Call it what you will, but for this group of Christians, the result was a virtual re-definition of scripture with respect to the understanding and justification of modern “tongues”; a re-interpretation of select texts to fit the modern practice/connotation of what ”tongues” (i.e. what they were doing) was perceived to be.

I am neither a so-called ‘cessationist’ nor a ‘continuationist’ – I do not identify with either term; in fact, I had never heard the two terms until just late in 2016. Cessationist vs, non-cessationist is really a false dichotomy; gifts ceasing is mentioned only once in the Bible in one short sentence, and the remainder of the Bible is totally silent on the matter. The one place it is mentioned is rarely taken into context of the entire passage.

As far as I’m concerned, quite frankly, since the Biblical reference of “tongues” is to real, rational languages, obviously “tongues” haven’t “ceased”; people still speak.

can I ask you where did you get the information "Pentecost movement" ? and 1906-1907 ?

 

[jaybird88]

What else do people do?

i kind of like the snake churches, they put their money where their mouth is. they claim the Lord will protect them from snakes and drinking poison, and they go out and do exactly that.

 

[notuptome]

LOL Paul knew the "New Testament " this is why you are in error Jesus is the NEW Testament . When Jesus said Mt 5:18 you forget HE is the Fulfiller of the law ? I find it funny you overlook John 14 and 16 where Jesus giving His instruction to the disciples and did not mention the great importance of a new writing to come to them.

John 14: 6, 9-11, 15-18,26-27

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.



15 “If you love Me, [d]keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.



26 But the [g]Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be

Nothing funny at all. Jesus was here and left so He cannot be the perfect which is yet to come. The bible was not complete at the time of 1 Cor 13:8. When it was completed then the need for signs passed away.

Nothing here conflicts with the passages in John. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit and it is the Holy Spirit that moved men to write the NT scripture.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[CS1]

Nothing funny at all. Jesus was here and left so He cannot be the perfect which is yet to come. The bible was not complete at the time of 1 Cor 13:8. When it was completed then the need for signs passed away.

Nothing here conflicts with the passages in John. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit and it is the Holy Spirit that moved men to write the NT scripture.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

when Paul said that he was speaking of the old Testament. If a person never saw a bible and was given the gospel message or just the story of Jesus and believe on it they would not be saved ? Prophecy was not the writing it is the inspiration that cause them to write It is the Spirit of God not the book. it's not the writer it's the Author .

 

[notuptome]

when Paul said that he was speaking of the old Testament. If a person never saw a bible and was given the gospel message or just the story of Jesus and believe on it they would not be saved ? Prophecy was not the writing it is the inspiration that cause them to write It is the Spirit of God not the book. it's not the writer it's the Author .

Of course because that is what he had. Paul knew the bible would not be complete (perfect) until the NT was fully revealed.

Jesus identified Himself with the word of God.

Phil 1:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defense of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretense, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[DJ2]

no I have a good skin and more long suffering then you know. as you were told I do not have to prove anything to you . You are the one who is saying the gifts have ended , yet you have not any Biblical ref to that claim. you want your human intellect gratified . it is not my job to make you agree it is your job to prove how the Biblical understanding of 1cor 12, 13, and 14 have ceased. you have not done so. If you are saying you need to see one speak in tongues , that is you. I believe the context of the scriptures as they are given even if I never saw the dead raised. that is were you and I differ.

This debate is not about verses or scriptures it is about claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It is about a group of people claiming to have this gift/ability yet unable to show even the basic presumptive evidence. It is this obvious lack of prima facie that this debate is about. They do not even have an explanation as to why the expected evidence is not present. You are simply attempting to change the direction of the disscussion with your 1st Corinthians strawman.

1st Corinthians does not prove that people are speaking in tongues. Just a Mark 16 does not prove people are being protected from snakes and poison. Nor does Ezekiel 7:2 prove that the Earth is flat.

There is no reason to take the claims of the pentacostal movement seriously until they can show that what they are claiming is supernatural in nature.

 

[Nehemiah6]

i kind of like the snake churches, they put their money where their mouth is. they claim the Lord will protect them from snakes and drinking poison, and they go out and do exactly that.

And then regret it.

 

[jaybird88]

And then regret it.

those guys actually drink enough poison to kill 20 men and live like nothing happened.

 

[jb]

LOL My bias LOL. I don't need to prove scripture as God has placed His approval upon His word.

I have shown you that the NT was not completed when Paul penned 1 Cor 13:8. The NT made clear the things that were promised in the OT. Hidden things now made manifest in the NT. With a complete NT there was no longer a need to have signs attest to the authority of the apostles and disciples. The authority of Gods word is established as it declared from heaven.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

This is such a perversion of the truth!

Acts 2v16-21,38,39, clearly teaches that spiritual gifts (as listed in 1Cor 12v7-11) are available throughout the WHOLE of the age of Grace, right up to the Second Coming of Christ.

As regards "that which is perfect has come" being the Canon of Scripture is a complete twisting of Scripture out of context, the canon of Scripture is NOWHERE mentioned in 1Cor 13.

For those interested you can find a few thoughts on 1Cor 13 Here

 

[oldethennew]

hub and myself have , it seems, since we've been together', 'in the 70's) - 'finally in God's Will'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -
we know that for sure 'now', 'He's literally 'broken us in (2),'...oh, we were so bad, according to the
circumstances that we 'inherited-into'! BUT, so glad NOW, (DELIVERANCE)!!!
hugs and kisses for 'Brothers and Sisters' throughout our Saviours' realm...

 

[CS1]

This debate is not about verses or scriptures it is about claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It is about a group of people claiming to have this gift/ability yet unable to show even the basic presumptive evidence. It is this obvious lack of prima facie that this debate is about. They do not even have an explanation as to why the expected evidence is not present. You are simply attempting to change the direction of the disscussion with your 1st Corinthians strawman.

1st Corinthians does not prove that people are speaking in tongues. Just a Mark 16 does not prove people are being protected from snakes and poison. Nor does Ezekiel 7:2 prove that the Earth is flat.

There is no reason to take the claims of the pentacostal movement seriously until they can show that what they are claiming is supernatural in nature.

I disagree it is all about verses and and scriptures because you have innerjected human reasoning into the topic. Are all claims true ? no of course not are all claims false ? No they are not . So if there is what is true and what is not true then 1cor 12, 13, and 14 can happen even if you or I did not expirence it. I am not claiming to have an ability I am saying the gifts of the Holy SPIRIT ARE IN OPERATION AND i HAVE BEEN USED IN THEM. . it is present and the term "prima facie" based on the first impression; accepted as correct until proved otherwise.
did not the people in Acts 2:13 "pima facie " "Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. ' was there first impression correct? No should we doubt the gifts of the Spirit if we have not seen them? that would not be "prima facie " do ytou not believe it to be true and then see is that NOT the very substance of faith or was thomas's " pima facie" correct John 20 :25

when he said " Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. "

did not Jesus correct him and say " 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. "

the very scriptures say differnt . You are stuck on the pentacostel movement LOl instead of what is given in the word of God. why don't you ask HIM for the gift ? and see what happens

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Regardless of the size of their church, it is the mindset that is the same. You are simply turning a blind eye to the glaring hole in pentecostal logic. Labeling modern events as on par with what was happening in the 1st century is their undoing.

you are actually defining your own bias in what you say here

you refuse all scripture and refer to personal testimony which really, cannot be proved or unproven

however we can say the same thing about scripture. do you have any idea how many people dismissed the resurrection? or the virgin birth?

you have no leg to stand on other than personal bias. have you seen Jesus? do you believe in Him? God is Spirit. you are confessing your desire to have physical proof of the spiritual and have aligned yourself with those who ask for a sign

when scripture is represented yourself and others deny its relevance for our time. when people offer personal experience BECAUSE you and others deny scripture, you then dismiss them as well

how convenient

ps,,,I am not Pentecostal nor am I Charasmatic. my church background is conservative but they have the good sense not to mock what they do not practive themselves. I believe simply from the evidence in scripture

 

[7seasrekeyed]

This debate is not about verses or scriptures it is about claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It is about a group of people claiming to have this gift/ability yet unable to show even the basic presumptive evidence. It is this obvious lack of prima facie that this debate is about. They do not even have an explanation as to why the expected evidence is not present. You are simply attempting to change the direction of the disscussion with your 1st Corinthians strawman.

1st Corinthians does not prove that people are speaking in tongues. Just a Mark 16 does not prove people are being protected from snakes and poison. Nor does Ezekiel 7:2 prove that the Earth is flat.

There is no reason to take the claims of the pentacostal movement seriously until they can show that what they are claiming is supernatural in nature.

you have MADE it that way

the op has no such claims

YOU made it that way because the bias you have will not stand up under the scrutiny of the Bible

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Can someone explain to me the uniqueness of this gift of speaking in tongues which most congregations in my neighbourhood insist on acquiring? Is it in any way superior to or more edifying than other gifts?

above is the actual op

nothing about personal experience

I do not believe those in opposition here are actually anxious about the truth

I believe personal bias is their main concern