Not By Works

[BillG]

Jesus was sinless, so he had no sin nature flesh. If there was anything akin to that, it was eradicated and he was made perfect and ultimately sanctified when he was resurrected.

Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father in a perfect body of flesh and bone and spirit. Sinless and ultimately sanctified.

You too will have the same kind of body after you have been resurrected.

So do you believe one needs to be positionally sanctified, progressively sanctified and utlimately sanctified in order to be saved?

I thought I addressed this in a post a page or so back. Maybe you haven't read it.
Please go see it.
One thing I do know about you is that you do respond to replies to your posts.
But I have not seen a response to it.

I believe we are positionally sanctified based on genuine faith.
This side of eternity we will not be ultimately sanctified because we can't.
But I do believe that as a result of genuine faith in Jesus and set apart we seek to be like Jesus.

My prayers every day and focus is "Jesus I want to be like you"

Nothing more or nothing less.

 

[benhur]

Over 3 thousand pages debating one simple Godly truth that Christ spoke over 2000 years ago.
He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
- Mark 16:16
John 14:26 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.



Some use Paul to claim works keep us saved? That's not what Paul said.
Galatians 2:21
"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Righteousness through the law and righteousness through the love of Jesus are 2 different things. One is not going to save, the other is part of the practical sanctification process. You must be fully sanctified in order to be saved.

 

[blue_ladybug]

That's right, God wanted to give glory to Jesus because it came back toHim. The same way he wants to give us glory because it will come back to Him. That is what God wants.

Precisely. BUT doing good works for the purpose of getting, keeping or maintaining salvation, are works that are done in vain. Works don't and will not save us.

We are to do them for the purpose of obeying God and His command to show HIS love to OTHERS, through US. That is why we do good works.

But if we do good works for the selfish purpose of getting or keeping salvation, then those works are moot in the eyes of God.

 

[benhur]

I thought I addressed this in a post a page or so back. Maybe you haven't read it.
Please go see it.
One thing I do know about you is that you do respond to replies to your posts.
But I have not seen a response to it.

I believe we are positionally sanctified based on genuine faith.
This side of eternity we will not be ultimately sanctified because we can't.
But I do believe that as a result of genuine faith in Jesus and set apart we seek to be like Jesus.

My prayers every day and focus is "Jesus I want to be like you"

Nothing more or nothing less.

So do you need to be ultimately sanctified in order to be saved?

 

[benhur]

Precisely. BUT doing good works for the purpose of getting, keeping or maintaining salvation, are works that are done in vain. Works don't and will not save us.

We are to do them for the purpose of obeying God and His command to show HIS love to OTHERS, through US. That is why we do good works.

But if we do good works for the selfish purpose of getting or keeping salvation, then those works are moot in the eyes of God.

I have always agreed with your statement. My only position which seems to oppose you is that if you don't do good works for the purpose of obeying God and His command to show his love to others, through us, then the person is deceiving themselves that they were truly saved in the first place.

So to me, good works in a way, is the arbitrator of being saved or not. Remember it is not good works that try to save us, but good works for the purpose of obeying God, and His command to show his love to others, through us. That is the good woks arbitrator.

 

[TruthTalk]

So one of the differences we face is that you use the term 'practical sanctification' for the term I use which is 'good works'. I don't see a large mountain there, I think we are getting closer.

Hi benhur, no mountain there. It is this; if you are putting your works out in front of your salvation it is not a good thing, why, because salvation is by grace through faith, "Not By Works" works are evidence of faith. If you are depending on your works to get you into heaven forget it.

From "Faith to Faith", it is by God's grace and mercy we are saved, our practice, sanctification, is our daily Christian growth. This is taught all throughout mainstream Christianity, these are not my ideas.

What I hear people talk about in your "soteriology", the doctrine of salvation, is that you, "mix" Positional sanctification, (justified), with Practical sanctification, (works). Your justification and your good works are meant to be separate parts of our Christian walk.

Justification by God and the Holy Spirit is our guarantee He will bring us safely home, "the security of the believer, eternal salvation, is a gift of God, you cannot work for it.

I understand you may or may not believe in some of what I say.

John10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

[BillG]

So do you need to be ultimately sanctified in order to be saved?

If you could clarify ultimately sanctfied then I can answer, because I have no idea what your saying

 

[BillG]

So do you need to be ultimately sanctified in order to be saved?

Hebrews 10:14-18
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Keeping his commands is not about salvation.
Genuine faith in Jesus is the cause of the effect, not the other way around.

Faith = salvation = sanctfied = to be declared holy set apart to do the following = sanctification.

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

If God has sanctified us, justified us then Romans tells us for those who love him, those called according to his purpose HE predestined to BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF JESUS.

Question if you do not mind.

What is baptised of the Holy Spirit?
I ask that because I've heard it said also "In the Holy Spirit"

It's not something I truly understand.

But also and I may be confusing you with someone else but don't you believe that we must be water baptised to be saved?

If not accept my apology.

For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Notice has perfected forever THOSE WHO ARE BEING SANCTIFIED.
Not those who sanctify themselves.

Obedience will follow genuine faith in Jesus.
It has to, because it is he who works good in us to conform us to the image of his son.

All of us must remember that some grow quicker than others, some bear fruit quicker than others.

Not everyone has the same level of works.

Matthew 13:8
8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

 

[justpassinthrough]

I can't recall TT saying that to obey the Gospel is foolish.

I think he says it's foolish to obey in order to be saved but we obey because we are saved.

I'm sure he will correct me.

Anyway what is the Gospel?

Repent for the kingdom of God is st hand.


The only command is Repent.


Repent means to turn to God in submission to His kingdom and rule as Lord.

If we are called to turn to God, then by default we are called to turn from Satan as our lord and master.

Repent is the call of God to join His kingdom, whereby we are transferred out of the domain of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son, if we obey and repent.

Because God loves us and wants none of us to perish, He calls us according to His grace to repent, turn to Him and become sons of God.


Repent is the most beautiful word in the Bible because it leads us to be reconciled with God, in which we our sins are forgiven and we are cleansed of all unrighteousness because of the blood of Christ Jesus, whereby we are justified; made just as if we had never sinned.


JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

I'm calling your criticism of me, and your constantly miss representing my words are nonsense, do you understand now? I did not say obeying the gospel was nonsense I said you were, you do twist every bodies words.

Have a wonderful forever.

Because I said the only way we are saved is by obeying the Gospel.




JPT

 

[TruthTalk]

I can't recall TT saying that to obey the Gospel is foolish.

I did not say, "obeying the gospel is foolish", more of passingthrough's lies.

Thank you BillG, this is just more of passingthrough's "nonsense" and twisting peoples words to say what they did not say. Even you know that I would not say such a thing. Be careful or you may fall for his "nonsense"

Thank you and God bless BillG

 

[VCO]

I did not say, "obeying the gospel is foolish", more of passingthrough's lies.

Thank you BillG, this is just more of passingthrough's "nonsense" and twisting peoples words to say what they did not say. Even you know that I would not say such a thing. Be careful or you may fall for his "nonsense"

Thank you and God bless BillG

Yeah, I think I want to ask if it isn't time he moved on? He has said a number of things about what we believe, and very little of it is actually the truth. I wish people would not assume that what we believe is that false opinion of there Pastor, who did not even know what we teach.

I know, it says we would be persecuted as HE was persecuted. Did you get time to read the Doctrinal Statement of Faith that I was so impressed with? That link in is my post #66,173. That is a profound doctrinal statement, and that leaves NO DOUBT what that Church's BELIEFS really are.

 

[justpassinthrough]

This passage is talking about faith after you are saved and yet we were dead in our trespasses and sins when God saved us, how could we be obedient to anything if we were dead, until the Holy Spirit quickened our spirit.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
Romans 1:16-17

• I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation

JPT

 

[Seohce]

Obedience does not save, are you saying acts of obedience are not deeds of works?
Please explain.

That is why I continually tell you that your "bias" is so that you can "falsely claim" a verse to say what you want it to say; that is bad interpretation and leads to bad applications such as your; "you can lose your salvation."

When the bible is silent about an issue; like the 5 virgins without oil, then we should be silent; this is "Rules of interpretation 101." Do not try to make the bible say something that it is not, you are barking up the wrong tree.
Here is your critical mistake; "Obviously salvation CAN be lost." This is a lie from the devil.

A true born again believer cannot lose their, "Eternal Salvation" because the bible say's so, read your bible.
You need to "unlearn" this garbage theology whoever taught you in the first place, it is wrong.

John10:28
I give them eternal life, "and they shall never perish"; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

True Gospel Folks​

Isaiah 5 : 20-24
20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.
22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks,
23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent.
24 Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for they have rejected the law of the LORD Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel.


Malachi 3 : 13-18
13 "You have said harsh things against me," says the LORD. "Yet you ask, 'What have we said against you?'
14 "You have said, 'It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by carrying out his requirements and going about like mourners before the LORD Almighty?
15 But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.'"
16 Then those who feared the LORD talked with each other, and the LORD listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the LORD and honored his name.
17 "They will be mine," says the LORD Almighty, "in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him.
18 And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.

Mark 7 : 6-13
6 He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
9 And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
11 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God),
12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother.
13 Thus YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. And YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT."

 

[justpassinthrough]

Thank you for your post, "what must a physical baby do to be physically born? nothing," Exactly.

That would be the text book example for Universal Reconciliation.

The doctrine that all people will be ultimately saved whether they believe or not.


Only those who obey the Gospel are saved; born again.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23



JPT

 

[oldethennew]

Jesus, I beg You to teach us how to LOVE one another through ALl
of our trials and tribulations,.,

 

[theanointedsinner]

Jesus, I beg You to teach us how to LOVE one another through ALl
of our trials and tribulations,.,

Jesus, I beg (placing our faith) You to teach us (God is wisdom) how to LOVE one another (obedience that comes from the Holy Spirit dwelling in you) through ALL
of our trials and tribulations,., (we all fall short of surrendering, and trials and tribulations usually exposes our weakness)

did I see the deeper meaning in the Word?

 

[Seohce]

Any person, religion, creed, etc that takes away one micro gram of Glory from God in any form or fashion and in turn places that glory on man is Anti-Christ.... I will, I will , I will, I will, I will, I will, I will, I will

All Glory goes to the Father dia JESUS......salvation based upon what we do or don't do places emphasis upon us and our ability....end of story.....!

1 Timothy 1 : 7-11
7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

Isaiah 5 : 20-24
20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.
22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks,
23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent.
24 Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for they have rejected the law of the LORD Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Revelation 3 : 1-3
1 "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD
2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.
3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

James 2 : 26
26 As the body without the spirit is DEAD so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

WAKE UP!!!!!

 

[TruthTalk]

Wow did I ever have a Pleasant Surprise today. First of, I suspect that our 75 year old Pastor, may be thinking about retirement, which saddens me a bit. Perhaps the First of the new year. Nothing that he has said personally, but just a suspicion, mainly because he is teaching through Revelation, and we just finished chapter 17. Where I go to Church, is stop and go traffic through several stop lights about 4 miles or more miles away, in the second largest City in Nebraska. So I thought about it, and came to the conclusion, after my Pastor retires, it I may choose to go to a Church closer home. There is a Heartland Bible Church affiliated with FELLOWSHIP of Evangelical Bible Churches, about 1.25 miles from my house, and only 4 stop lights away. So I read THROUGH their Doctrinal Statement of Faith, and WOW.

It is the BEST Doctrinal Statement that I have ever read. In my opinion, every Church can take lessons from this, on how to prepare a Doctrinal Statement.

If you are interested, look through it, and you will see what I mean: https://www.fellowshipforward.org/doctrine.html

From VCO, example of a Church Doctrinal Statement.
https://www.fellowshipforward.org/doctrine.html

Yes I did read it and believe as you do, here is one example maybe some will like to read.

• Sanctification

We believe sanctification, a setting-apart unto God, involves both the work of God and the will of man (Phil. 2:12-13). Sanctification is threefold: positional, progressive, and ultimate. It is positional, for every believer is in Christ and therefore identical with Christ's position before God (1 Cor. 6:11; Col. 3:1-4; Heb. 10:10). We believe, however, that he retains his sin nature (flesh), which cannot be eradicated in this life. Therefore, while the standing of the believer in Christ is perfect, his present state is no more perfect than his experience in daily life. Therefore, a believer experiences progressive sanctification, growing in grace and becoming changed by the unhindered power of the Spirit (John 17:17; Rom. 6:19; 2 Cor. 7:1). Ultimate sanctification will occur when the believer sees the Lord and becomes "like Him" (1 Thess. 5:23; 1 John 2:28-3:3).

 

[TruthTalk]

I thought I addressed this in a post a page or so back. Maybe you haven't read it.
Please go see it.
One thing I do know about you is that you do respond to replies to your posts.
But I have not seen a response to it.

I believe we are positionally sanctified based on genuine faith.
This side of eternity we will not be ultimately sanctified because we can't.
But I do believe that as a result of genuine faith in Jesus and set apart we seek to be like Jesus.

My prayers every day and focus is "Jesus I want to be like you"

Nothing more or nothing less.

Amen wonderful post BillG