Hi Danny, that's what the Bible tells us, even about the saving faith that we exercise when we choose to believe .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8-10, so "yes".
~Deut
~Deut
-
1
- Show all
John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Hi shrume/notuptome, I hope you two don't mind if I jump in on this one, but who teaches that a person is saved apart from coming to saving faith in Christ? I believe, along with the Bible, that we are saved (receive "eternal life" .. e.g. John 5:24) when we first "believe". However, apart from God regenerating us (quickening our dead hearts) first, we will never choose to believe. So while I believe that the Bible teaches us that God must act on our behalf to make us alive spiritually first .. Ephesians 2:1-5, I also believe that He chooses to justify/save us when we come to saving faith in Him, not before.
~Deut
..........John 5
..........24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not
..........come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
~Deut
..........John 5
..........24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not
..........come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
-
2
- Show all
First let me say that you have done about as well with these questions as I have seen. Thank you. Further, as I stated, I am not a calvinist in all thought. I think great arguments for God's total sovereignty AND man's free will choice can be made from Scripture.
BUT.... there are some issues with your analysis. Here is the Romans passage with a little more context.
Romans 12 New King James Version (NKJV)
Living Sacrifices to God
12 I beseech[a] you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your [b]reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Serve God with Spiritual Gifts
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
Note that Paul is addressing BRETHREN. I think when reading this passage it is reasonable to say that the measure of faith given to each one is meant for the MEMBERS IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, not everyone.
Also, having the knowledge of the Truth and then suppressing the Truth is kinda the OPPOSITE of having faith in the Truth.
Now, why do I believe? Why do you believe? I knew the truth of who Jesus was LONG before I accepted and received Him. So what changed? Truthfully, I have no idea, other than God gave ME the faith to not only acknowledge, but to BELIEVE, and it was HIS Will that I became born again, NOT mine. I would have continued to 'suppress' Him and live a life of sin.
BUT.... there are some issues with your analysis. Here is the Romans passage with a little more context.
Romans 12 New King James Version (NKJV)
Living Sacrifices to God
12 I beseech[a] you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your [b]reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Serve God with Spiritual Gifts
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
Note that Paul is addressing BRETHREN. I think when reading this passage it is reasonable to say that the measure of faith given to each one is meant for the MEMBERS IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, not everyone.
Also, having the knowledge of the Truth and then suppressing the Truth is kinda the OPPOSITE of having faith in the Truth.
Now, why do I believe? Why do you believe? I knew the truth of who Jesus was LONG before I accepted and received Him. So what changed? Truthfully, I have no idea, other than God gave ME the faith to not only acknowledge, but to BELIEVE, and it was HIS Will that I became born again, NOT mine. I would have continued to 'suppress' Him and live a life of sin.
Paul could be addressing his "brethren" who are Israelites – see Rom 9:3-4, Rom 10:1, Rom 11:1 and teaching them about God having given to every man the measure of faith.
Having faith does not mean we will not believe a lie. We can sincerely believe (have faith in) something that is not true … and that can cost us very dearly. See the example in Gen 3 where satan told Eve "Ye shall not surely die" and "ye shall be as 'elohiym". Eve believed the lie and all of creation was made subject to depravity in which the creation groans and travails in pain together until now (Rom 8:20-22).
Perfect example of suppressing/restraining the truth in unrighteousness.
When you finally did not suppress the truth, God worked within your heart to bring the increase.
Note Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.
You finally allowed that seed of God's Word to settle in your heart. The heart is where God works. And the gospel is powerful. The power of God that raised Jesus Christ from the dead works in the believer at the time he or she is born again.
Then we have Rom 1:17: For therein (the gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
From faith to faith. It's not from works to faith or from faith to works, but from faith to faith. The justified ones live by faith. It is a continuous walk of faith in this lifetime. So, so amazing!!!
Having faith does not mean we will not believe a lie. We can sincerely believe (have faith in) something that is not true … and that can cost us very dearly. See the example in Gen 3 where satan told Eve "Ye shall not surely die" and "ye shall be as 'elohiym". Eve believed the lie and all of creation was made subject to depravity in which the creation groans and travails in pain together until now (Rom 8:20-22).
Perfect example of suppressing/restraining the truth in unrighteousness.
When you finally did not suppress the truth, God worked within your heart to bring the increase.
Note Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.
You finally allowed that seed of God's Word to settle in your heart. The heart is where God works. And the gospel is powerful. The power of God that raised Jesus Christ from the dead works in the believer at the time he or she is born again.
Then we have Rom 1:17: For therein (the gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
From faith to faith. It's not from works to faith or from faith to works, but from faith to faith. The justified ones live by faith. It is a continuous walk of faith in this lifetime. So, so amazing!!!
-
1
- Show all
ROMANS 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
That's a very common Calvinist argument.
Calvinists overstate the fallen nature of mankind. There is no Bible verse that says the fallen nature of mankind keeps people from making a good choice. Quite the opposite. When we read the Bible in a simple and straightforward way, we can see that God asks fallen people to choose Him and salvation. Furthermore, the Bible tells us that God is upset and angry when unsaved people do not make the choice to do good. Making the choice to live forever instead of die is a "naturally" wise choice, like eating healthy and exercising to live better and longer are "naturally" wise choices. Those wise choices do not take divine intervention.
Also, no Calvinist has a good answer for scripture like 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eze 33:11; Deut 30:19. I believe those scripture are true as written.
Calvinists overstate the fallen nature of mankind. There is no Bible verse that says the fallen nature of mankind keeps people from making a good choice. Quite the opposite. When we read the Bible in a simple and straightforward way, we can see that God asks fallen people to choose Him and salvation. Furthermore, the Bible tells us that God is upset and angry when unsaved people do not make the choice to do good. Making the choice to live forever instead of die is a "naturally" wise choice, like eating healthy and exercising to live better and longer are "naturally" wise choices. Those wise choices do not take divine intervention.
Also, no Calvinist has a good answer for scripture like 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eze 33:11; Deut 30:19. I believe those scripture are true as written.
From within themselves. You can call it God-given if you like, but God gives the capacity to believe to every person. He wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).
Where does the Bible say faith (or the capacity to have it) is a gift? If you think Eph 2:8 says it, I believe you are misunderstanding that verse. The gift is salvation BY faith.
God does ask something from us in order to be saved, but He asks about the least thing He could. The decision to have faith in Christ.
Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Where does the Bible say faith (or the capacity to have it) is a gift? If you think Eph 2:8 says it, I believe you are misunderstanding that verse. The gift is salvation BY faith.
God does ask something from us in order to be saved, but He asks about the least thing He could. The decision to have faith in Christ.
Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
For everyone who has gone before, that's true. For people who have not died yet, I do not think that's true. God want's everyone to repent.
God is saving people who choose to believe on Jesus Christ, and those who do not choose to believe on Christ He will condemn. People who never had the opportunity to hear of Jesus Christ will be judged by their works, by how they lived their lives.
We certainly do.
I do not believe it was God's "divine will and purpose" for 9/11, for Columbine, for the shooting that happened today, every time a woman is raped or someone is murdered, etc. It is also not God's "divine will and purpose" to indiscriminately send people to hell "just because He is God and we're not".
God is saving people who choose to believe on Jesus Christ, and those who do not choose to believe on Christ He will condemn. People who never had the opportunity to hear of Jesus Christ will be judged by their works, by how they lived their lives.
We certainly do.
I do not believe it was God's "divine will and purpose" for 9/11, for Columbine, for the shooting that happened today, every time a woman is raped or someone is murdered, etc. It is also not God's "divine will and purpose" to indiscriminately send people to hell "just because He is God and we're not".
Well Paul could have been using the term brethren in the generic sense except he goes on to explain that the measure of faith given to the brethren is tied up with the various gifts that each brother and sister bring to the body. THESE ARE CHRISTIANS HE IS REFERENCING, NOT everyone.
I mean, here it is:
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.
Also, God does NOT heal our hearts. Our hearts are desperately wicked. God gives us a NEW heart, and makes us a NEW creation.
I mean, here it is:
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.
Also, God does NOT heal our hearts. Our hearts are desperately wicked. God gives us a NEW heart, and makes us a NEW creation.
Sure God would love for all to repent but that is not going to happen. So those who have not died yet, do you not believe that God already knows who his sheep are and the goats ? I mean after all he is the Alpha and Omega...etc
So if you do not think it was God's divine will and or purpose on these tragedies mentioned above then what do you call it ? Man's evil sin nature ?
So if you do not think it was God's divine will and or purpose on these tragedies mentioned above then what do you call it ? Man's evil sin nature ?
Hi Nehemiah6, I believe that all could choose to respond positively to the Gospel, but because God granted us free will, none do so (unless God steps in first).
Free will, after all, is the ability to choose to do what we desire most at a given moment in time. If those who have no desire for God go ahead and choose Him anyway, they would be acting 'against' their free will, not according to it (and outside of God changing us/quickening our hearts and drawing us to His Son, none will know, understand, accept or come to Him).
On the flip-side, 'all' who are drawn* by the Father and given to His Son .. John 6:44 will come to Him and be saved, and none of these "drawn-ones"* will ever be lost (according to the Bible anyway
).
.........."ALL that the Father gives to Me WILL come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me,
...........I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." ~John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
~Deut
..........John 6
..........65 No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him by the Father.
*As a point of interest, ἑλκύω [helkuo], which is translated as "draws" in John 6:44, never means to "woo" or to "entice", Biblically -or- extra-Biblically. Rather, it means to drag, drag off, impel, lead, draw by an inward force or power, etc. (e.g. Peter ἑλκύω "drew" his sword. Paul and Silas were ἑλκύω "dragged" before the authorities in the marketplace, etc.). Rather, δελεάζω [deleazo] (e.g. James 1:14; 2 Peter 2:18) is the word that means to lure, entice or woo.
Free will, after all, is the ability to choose to do what we desire most at a given moment in time. If those who have no desire for God go ahead and choose Him anyway, they would be acting 'against' their free will, not according to it (and outside of God changing us/quickening our hearts and drawing us to His Son, none will know, understand, accept or come to Him).
On the flip-side, 'all' who are drawn* by the Father and given to His Son .. John 6:44 will come to Him and be saved, and none of these "drawn-ones"* will ever be lost (according to the Bible anyway
)..........."ALL that the Father gives to Me WILL come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me,
...........I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." ~John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
~Deut
..........John 6
..........65 No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him by the Father.
*As a point of interest, ἑλκύω [helkuo], which is translated as "draws" in John 6:44, never means to "woo" or to "entice", Biblically -or- extra-Biblically. Rather, it means to drag, drag off, impel, lead, draw by an inward force or power, etc. (e.g. Peter ἑλκύω "drew" his sword. Paul and Silas were ἑλκύω "dragged" before the authorities in the marketplace, etc.). Rather, δελεάζω [deleazo] (e.g. James 1:14; 2 Peter 2:18) is the word that means to lure, entice or woo.
-
1
- Show all
Of course. And how does God "step in"? Through the preaching of the Gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation, Rom 1:16) and through the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit (which is one of the main reasons that He is here on earth).
The real issue is "Why do Calvinists ignore these two major factors which bring sinners to the Savior?" And the only answer is because it would destroy their theology. Now let's see how this works in Scripture (which is a pattern for all time) so that the issue is settled.
ACTS 2
THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
SINNERS ARE CONVINCED AND CONVICTED
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL IS PROCLAIMED
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
ALL MAY BE SAVED IF ALL WILL REPENT AND BELIEVE
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
THE FULL GOSPEL IS PREACHED IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
SINNERS ARE SAVED, BAPTIZED, AND ADDED TO THE CHURCH
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Now do you see any "free will issues" here? God had stepped in already, and this is a pattern for the future.
The real issue is "Why do Calvinists ignore these two major factors which bring sinners to the Savior?" And the only answer is because it would destroy their theology. Now let's see how this works in Scripture (which is a pattern for all time) so that the issue is settled.
ACTS 2
THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
SINNERS ARE CONVINCED AND CONVICTED
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL IS PROCLAIMED
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
ALL MAY BE SAVED IF ALL WILL REPENT AND BELIEVE
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
THE FULL GOSPEL IS PREACHED IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
SINNERS ARE SAVED, BAPTIZED, AND ADDED TO THE CHURCH
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Now do you see any "free will issues" here? God had stepped in already, and this is a pattern for the future.