No, God did not lie

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
#21
If you don't mind/if you have the time, please take another look at the Lord's words from John 6. John 6:39 says, I LOSE NOTHING. If there are any true Christians (IOW, ones who have truly been saved by Christ) who renounce their faith in Him and somehow become un-born again/unbelievers again, then His promise to us in John 6 is an empty one (a lie), because if anyone who was truly His rejects Him and walks away from Him forever, they haven't lost Him (because they're the ones who chose to reject Him), but He has most certainly "lost" them (something that He promised us would never happen)!
Just for clarity's sake, John 6:39 says that it's GOD's will that none perish, not that none will perish. It's also GOD's will that no one perishes, but we know that men will make sure that GOD's will in that matter doesn't happen.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 6:39
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#22
Ū
Jesus doesn't lose us but we can lose Him. The verse... "But if you sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins." (Hebrews 10:26) proves that a genuinely saved person can lose their salvation.

"For if it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner? " 1 Peter 4:18
That proves that a legalist cannot claim Christ and his own legalism at the same time.

Like some that think they can do all manner of things during the week and then go to church on sunday and have it all washed away.

That's not how it is and that is what is being expressed in Hebrews 10. Not some proof for losing salvation.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#23
Best thing to do is let jesus talk.

John 6: 64 - But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

and remember, this is right after jesus fed the 5000, which was right after john was beheaded, which means it was near begining of jesus ministry,

Judas did not lose salvation, you can not lose what you do not have
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
246
63
#24
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”
Can this proof loss of salvation?

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:39-40
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
246
63
#25
Best thing to do is let jesus talk.

John 6: 64 - But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

and remember, this is right after jesus fed the 5000, which was right after john was beheaded, which means it was near begining of jesus ministry,

Judas did not lose salvation, you can not lose what you do not have
Amen, Luke 8:15
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
316
36
28
#26
Hi,
I will make a comment about Judas, which may verify that he was not a true believer, though he was numbered among the 12 and was given the Holy Spirit with the others when they went out in Matthew 10 and healed the sick and cast out demons. --- You would think that after such an experience he could never deny his faith. --- However, there was the thought among the 12 that when the time was right Jesus would lead His followers into Jerusalem and perhaps uproot the Pharisees, and drive out the Romans, and declare Himself King of Israel.

And this time came on Palm Sunday, when He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey to the praises of 'Hosanah to the King.' --- But rather than declaring Himself King, He went the next day to drive the merchants out of the temple grounds. The thought is that Judas, like the others understood that their dreams of becoming part of the new government were dashed. Palm Sunday was just a week before Passover. --- And Judas the crooked treasurer, who was materially minded, who had hopes of perhaps having a position in money matters in a new Government, --- no doubt was thinking, "What's in it for me?"

--- It said in John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him, --- So perhaps in that week Judas was vulnerable to Satan, so Satan 'put it in his heart' to betray Jesus. --- At supper when Jesus identified who would betray Him, it said this in 13: 26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.”

So the question: Was Judas a believer before he was enticed by Satan? --- If his commitment was not strong enough to keep him, and his interest was in money, --- he was an easy target for Satan.
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
246
63
#27
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
3,216
3,543
113
67
#28
Just for clarity's sake, John 6:39 says that it's GOD's will that none perish, not that none will perish. It's also GOD's will that no one perishes, but we know that men will make sure that GOD's will in that matter doesn't happen.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 6:39
Hi HeRoseFromTheDead, you certainly make some points that are worth considering :)

The good news is, it's the Lord Himself, not us, who carries out His Father's will in this case (see v38's, "I have come down from heaven to do the will of Him who sent Me"), and unlike us, it would be inconceivable to think that the Son of God would/could fail to carry out His Father's express will. Further, the Son promises us that He will do it .. see v40's, "I Myself will raise him up on the last day".

..........John 6
..........37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
..........38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
..........39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
..........40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life,
..........and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

Another point that I think needs to be considered here is this, there is a difference in what the Father "desires" or wishes for (and therefore may not get), and what He "wills" (decrees), which will always happen.

For instance, He "desires" that all men would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth .. 1 Timothy 2:4. If "all men" actually means 'all w/o exception', then the Bible is clear that His "desire" in this case will not be fulfilled.

~Deut
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#29
Ū
Jesus doesn't lose us but we can lose Him. The verse... "But if you sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins." (Hebrews 10:26) proves that a genuinely saved person can lose their salvation.

"For if it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner? " 1 Peter 4:18
Wrong again.....NO ONE believe this.......it does NOT prove a genuinely saved person can lose their salvation....and the context IS NOT salvation.....blows my mind how many yank this totally out of context to support a false dogma....
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#30
Hi OneFaith, in reality, Hebrews 10:26 says, "if you 'go on'/''continue' sinning willfully...............". Those who do not change from, or who quickly return to, their former, sinful "lifestyles" after they've claimed to have become Christians, were never saved to begin with. Those who continue in sin/"go on sinning willfully" is actually the description of a non-Christian, not a true believer.

For what it's worth, ἁμαρτάνω ἑκουσίως/"willfully sinning", carries that sense of deliberate sin that is habitual, which is why the NASB, ESV, NIV, etc., translate the verse as "go on sinning willfully". v26 speaks of those who both deliberately and habitually reject Jesus. The ones who do that were never Christians to begin with, no matter what prayer or claim they may have spoken/made at some point in time .. cf Matthew 7:23.

Speaking of true Christians, the author of Hebrews finishes chapter 10 with these words.......

........Hebrews 10
........39 We are not of those who shrink back to destruction [perdition], but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

If you don't mind/if you have the time, please take another look at the Lord's words from John 6. John 6:39 says, I LOSE NOTHING. If there are any true Christians (IOW, ones who have truly been saved by Christ) who renounce their faith in Him and somehow become un-born again/unbelievers again, then His promise to us in John 6 is an empty one (a lie), because if anyone who was truly His rejects Him and walks away from Him forever, they haven't lost Him (because they're the ones who chose to reject Him), but He has most certainly "lost" them (something that He promised us would never happen)!

Thanks!

~Deut
"No longer" means it once genuinely did, sorry. Christ's blood saves when you have it, and they had it, therefore they were genuinely saved while they had it. Saying that they were never saved in the first place goes against this scripture, and therefore is not true, and a false teaching.
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#31
Wrong again.....NO ONE believe this.......it does NOT prove a genuinely saved person can lose their salvation....and the context IS NOT salvation.....blows my mind how many yank this totally out of context to support a false dogma....
Woe! Christ's sacrifice (Christ's blood) is not salvation? That's blasphemy if I ever heard it!!! You are the one out of context. It says "No longer remains"- that means it once did remain. You can argue with God if you wish, but that is what it says.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
3,216
3,543
113
67
#32
"No longer" means it once genuinely did, sorry. Christ's blood saves when you have it, and they had it, therefore they were genuinely saved while they had it. Saying that they were never saved in the first place goes against this scripture, and therefore is not true, and a false teaching.
Hi OneFaith, "no longer" means there is no longer any hope of salvation for the ones that v26 is referring to (that there "no longer" remains a sacrifice for their sins ... NOT that they no longer possess a salvation which was never theirs to begin with).

The verse says:

.........Hebrews 10
.........26 If we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

Paraphrased this verse might say this, "if those who have heard and clearly understood the Gospel continue to refuse to acknowledge the truth, repent of their sins and turn to Christ because of it, then there is nothing else that can be said or done for them, they will die in their sins" (IOW, there no longer remains a sacrifice for their sins).

v26 was originally written to/about Jews in the 1st century church who were aware of the bad news (that they are sinners in need of a Savior), and they knew the Good News/all they needed to know to come to saving faith in Christ as well, but for reasons of their own, they still refused to do so. For them, there no longer remained any hope of being saved, because sadly, these Jews, who possessed a full knowledge of the Gospel, still chose to reject it/reject Him, and by doing so, rejected the only salvation there was for them (or for anyone else for that matter) .. John 14:6; Acts 4:12.

~Deut
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
3,216
3,543
113
67
#33
Christ's blood saves when you have it, and they had it, therefore they were genuinely saved while they had it.
Hi again OneFaith, I forgot to ask you about something else in my last post to you (sorry about that).

You said that Christ's blood saves, that those spoken of in Hebrews 10:26 had it, and that they were saved because they did. My question is, how did you arrive at that conclusion? IOW, where does the Bible tell us that those who v26 is referring to were saved by His blood?

Thanks!

~Deut
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#34
Woe! Christ's sacrifice (Christ's blood) is not salvation? That's blasphemy if I ever heard it!!! You are the one out of context. It says "No longer remains"- that means it once did remain. You can argue with God if you wish, but that is what it says.
Your first line is blasphemy, (since you used the term, it need to be exposed what is true blasphemy and what is not) there is no salvation in anything other that christ,

I suggest you study up on the doctrine of redemption, and what paid the price if our salvation.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#35
Ū
Jesus doesn't lose us but we can lose Him. The verse... "But if you sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins." (Hebrews 10:26) proves that a genuinely saved person can lose their salvation.

"For if it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner? " 1 Peter 4:18
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.Hebrew 10:26-27

Not to made light of the verse and the other verse in 1 Peter is another subject matter

We must be careful on how we hear God it is actually the description of a Christian who has denied Christ in unbelief , Christ cannot deny himself if he has paid the full wage. When we sin in unbelief (no faith) we have a warning which will devour the enemy. Not the believer .The believer should be moved to run to His loving arms seeking His grace and mercy. We fear Him because with Him there is forgiveness, Mercy
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
246
63
#36
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.Hebrew 10:26-27

Not to made light of the verse and the other verse in 1 Peter is another subject matter

We must be careful on how we hear God it is actually the description of a Christian who has denied Christ in unbelief , Christ cannot deny himself if he has paid the full wage. When we sin in unbelief (no faith) we have a warning which will devour the enemy. Not the believer .The believer should be moved to run to His loving arms seeking His grace and mercy. We fear Him because with Him there is forgiveness, Mercy
Who is this statement addressing? What is the willful sin? Who lives in fear of the fiery judgment? These are important questions when considering the dispensational context of Hebrews 10:26.
The Audience
First, the audience of the book is given to those who will receive Israel’s promises, law, priesthood, covenants, and future hope in that heavenly city to come (Heb 7:12, 13:14).
Since these doctrines are reserved for Israel and cannot be reconciled to the grace teaching of the Apostle Paul, it must be recognized immediately that Hebrews is not for our participation who live under God’s grace today (Eph 3:1-2). The audience then is prophetic Israel not Jews or Gentiles under Paul’s ministry.
Second, it has been commonly described as speaking to the unbelieving Hebrews who reject the Messiah. Yet, if this is true then it would have been impossible for the Christ-rejecting Saul to receive God’s grace when he clearly did “despite the Spirit of grace” which was given at Pentecost.
Instead, the verse is speaking to those who were already participating in the new covenant. This is consistent with the previous ten chapters of the book.
The passage refers to “us” four times in the immediate context. The writer says “let us draw near”, “let us hold fast… without wavering”, “let us … provoke unto good works”, and “the assembling of ourselves”.
The “us” people are those who have already heard and received the Spirit of grace. They were being encouraged to hold fast to the precepts of the new covenant without wavering as it was their second and final opportunity to enter the kingdom without sin (Heb 11:16-18). This understanding is the key to answering the remaining questions.
The Willful Sin
The reason the audience is being exhorted to “hold fast” and to do “good works” is because their endurance and admittance into the kingdom is contingent upon their behavior (Mark 13:13).
Of course, if we understand the revelation in Romans 3-5 we know that it is impossible for anyone under the gospel of grace to do any work to secure or release God’s forgiveness imputed unto us now by God’s grace (Rom 5:11).
However, while we enjoy the benefits of God’s appropriations now, Israel does not receive those prophesied benefits until the kingdom come. They had to endure unto the “end” to receive the salvation purchased by Christ’s blood (1 Pet 1:9,13).
The willful sin is committed by a partaker of the new covenant Spirit of grace who was “falling away” back into unbelief, doubt, and sin. This is evident from the exhortations after this strong warning:
“Cast not away therefore your confidence…” – Heb 10:35
“…if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” – Heb 10:38
“… we are not of them who draw back unto perdition…” – Heb 10:39
Also, remember the warning of Hebrews 6:6 to those who were “falling away” from the basic elements of faith:
“It is impossible … if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;” – Heb 6:4-6
The believing Hebrews were partakers of the “heavenly gift” and the Holy Ghost which “caused them to walk in [God’s] statutes” (Eze 36:27). Their willful sin was contrary to the Holy Ghost’s provision and persistence against the new covenant blood of Christ. This was worthy of greater punishment than the first time Israel rejected God’s covenant (Heb 10:28-29).
The Fiery Judgment
If we have successfully exposited Hebrews 10:26 then verse 27 falls simply into place.
“But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” – Heb 10:27
The fiery indignation and judgment for sin cannot be for our participation today who have “peace with God” and “stand in grace” (Rom 5:1-2).
Although it would describe the punishment of the unbelieving Hebrews it could not primarily address them since they were never partakers of the new covenant and would more correctly be the “adversaries” who are in the verse.
Instead, this fear of judgment falls on those who are partakers of the covenant and are tempted to reject it just as those who rebelled under Moses’ covenant.
The Hebrew epistles of Peter, James, and John are filled with encouragements to endure until the kingdom comes while consistently bearing good fruit. If these remaining Hebrew believers would perform good works, then admission into the kingdom would be assured and they would receive the salvation that was purchased by the blood of Christ (2 Pet 1:10-11).
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,724
10,530
113
77
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#37
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrew 10:26-27
Okay, whose knowledge of truth are we talking about here? Christ's life giving call and enlightenment or the god of this world's counterfeit call. Does this scripture address true believers? Or just those that think they are?

in-deep-thought-smiley-emoticon.gif
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#38
Woe! Christ's sacrifice (Christ's blood) is not salvation? That's blasphemy if I ever heard it!!! You are the one out of context. It says "No longer remains"- that means it once did remain. You can argue with God if you wish, but that is what it says.
Wrong again.....lose the religious lemon twist and open your eyes to the actual context....not what has been crammed down your throat by the false teachers you have sat under....
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#39
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.Hebrew 10:26-27

Not to made light of the verse and the other verse in 1 Peter is another subject matter

We must be careful on how we hear God it is actually the description of a Christian who has denied Christ in unbelief , Christ cannot deny himself if he has paid the full wage. When we sin in unbelief (no faith) we have a warning which will devour the enemy. Not the believer .The believer should be moved to run to His loving arms seeking His grace and mercy. We fear Him because with Him there is forgiveness, Mercy
It amazes me....how many will flat reject, deny and or sweep the context of that statement under the table to peddle a "loseable" salvation like a street organ player in Bombay with a dancing monkey....
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#40
Wrong again.....lose the religious lemon twist and open your eyes to the actual context....not what has been crammed down your throat by the false teachers you have sat under....

Unlike most people, I do not go with what I've been taught without first seeing if it's scriptural. Let's look at context...

But if (conditional statement) you (saved Christian- the bible is not written to the worldly but to Christians) sin willfully (on purpose, premeditated, without goal and effort to stop) there no longer (benefit stopped- benefit being Christ's sacrifice/God's grace) remains a sacrifice (Christ's sacrifice/life-saving blood) for your sins (sin debt that only Christ's blood can take away).