Christ is God

[Noose]

Because you say so. So who is limiting God now?

You need to change so many Bible verses... And still without a blush.

If something doesn't exist and can not exist we say it can't be; that's not limiting God.
Saying God can not create a square circle is really not an argument because a square circle is nothing, it doesn't exist just like three distinct persons yet one. They can either be distinct or they can be one, they can't be both- something that i'll wait in vain for any of you to demonstrate but still you'll fail.

 

[NWL]

Too much text for my taste. But I see we are still floating around Col 1:15 and col 1:18. These texts are different.

15: πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως
NIV: firstborn over all creation

18: πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν
NIV: firstborn from among the dead

18 is from a group, 15 is not.

Really? It takes a measly minute to read my friend.

Firstly you coincidentally keep quoting Col 1:15 as Jesus being "over" creation. As I have mentioned previously the word you've used in col 1:15 there for "over" is pasēs. "pasēs " does not mean over but is rather defined as "all, the whole, every kind of" hence why most translations favour the translation "firstborn of all creation". As I explained in my previous response, if you actually took the time to read it, some translators used the word "over" instead of "of" as they believe "firstborn" in Col 1:15 to be in reference to preeminence instead of a temporal/time sense. They believe the verse is stating Jesus is the highest of all creation thus they insert, which isn't found in the original text, to portray what they believed the intended meaning to be over what the original text actually says. In fact having the word "over" in col 1:15 breaks all previous grammatical and contextual examples in the bible of like passages as its impossible to be firstborn over a group. Its like me saying, I'm the winner over the group of racers despite not being in the race...me being a winner implies I was part of the race that I was the winner in. "Over", in the sentence, makes no sense in either the word exercise I just used or in Col 1:15 but is an insertion of translators believed interpretation of the text.

Moreover, it does not matter if Jesus is firstborn over creation, the rule I explained still applies. To be firstborn implies you are part of the group.

What are you grammatical reasons for choosing "over" in Col 1:15 over what the Greek says and how most translators translate the verse?

 

[trofimus]

I would say he knew the WORD of GOD better than all of us put together!!

That was not my question. Pharisees also knew "word of God" better than fishermen John or Peter, but they were so mistaken.

 

[trofimus]

Really? It takes a measly minute to read my friend.

Firstly you coincidentally keep quoting Col 1:15 as Jesus being "over" creation. As I have mentioned previously the word you've used in col 1:15 there for "over" is pasēs. "pasēs " does not mean over but is rather defined as "all, the whole, every kind of" hence why most translations favour the translation "firstborn of all creation". As I explained in my previous response, if you actually took the time to read it, some translators used the word "over" instead of "of" as they believe "firstborn" in Col 1:15 to be in reference to preeminence instead of a temporal/time sense. They believe the verse is stating Jesus is the highest of all creation thus they insert, which isn't found in the original text, to portray what they believed the intended meaning to be over what the original text actually says. In fact having the word "over" in col 1:15 breaks all previous grammatical and contextual examples in the bible of like passages as its impossible to be firstborn over a group. Its like me saying, I'm the winner over the group of racers despite not being in the race...me being a winner implies I was part of the race that I was the winner in. "Over", in the sentence, makes no sense in either the word exercise I just used or in Col 1:15 but is an insertion of translators believed interpretation of the text.

Moreover, it does not matter if Jesus is firstborn over creation, the rule I explained still applies. To be firstborn implies you are part of the group.

What are you grammatical reasons for choosing "over" in Col 1:15 over what the Greek says and how most translators translate the verse?

Its NIV, not me.

I am not (neither are the NIV translators) using "pasés" as "over". Over is an additional word in English to express the meaning. The literal English translation would be:
"firstborn all creation".
There must be something added to express the meaning - of, over -> firsborn over all creation.

 

[trofimus]

If something doesn't exist and can not exist we say it can't be; that's not limiting God.
Saying God can not create a square circle is really not an argument because a square circle is nothing, it doesn't exist just like three distinct persons yet one. They can either be distinct or they can be one, they can't be both- something that i'll wait in vain for any of you to demonstrate but still you'll fail.

You are yet to prove that three persons in one being are impossible as a square circle is.

 

[Noose]

You are yet to prove that three persons in one being are impossible as a square circle is.

It is you to prove that it is possible otherwise people don't disprove impossibilities. Impossibilities are nothing and you can not tell someone to prove nothing. No one can disprove a square circle because it is nothing.

 

[GodisONE]

That was not my question. Pharisees also knew "word of God" better than fishermen John or Peter, but they were so mistaken.

at least He knew the difference between a Spirit having no form vs your idealism of it being a person hahahaha

that alone is enough for me to spill my drink!!

 

[trofimus]

It is you to prove that it is possible otherwise people don't disprove impossibilities. Impossibilities are nothing and you can not tell someone to prove nothing. No one can disprove a square circle because it is nothing.

Bible says so. Therefore its possible. Q.E.D.

 

[trofimus]

at least He knew the difference between a Spirit having no form vs your idealism of it being a person hahahaha

that alone is enough for me to spill my drink!!

American pentecostalism has been a source of so many heresies... I wonder why.

 

[NWL]

Its NIV, not me.

I am not (neither are the NIV translators) using "pasés" as "over". Over is an additional word in English to express the meaning. The literal English translation would be:
"firstborn all creation".
There must be something added to express the meaning - of, over -> firsborn over all creation.

Are you even reading what I'm writing???

At times translators add in words to convey what THEY believe the meaning of the text is over what the original text actually says. The NIV is not an accurate translation and is dogma biased. The translators even admitted to them perverting of Gods word in gain of money and in order for the NIV to get readers (http://www.elihubooks.com/data/topi...in_H_Palmer_to_Julie_Moore_re_divine_name.pdf).

Again, what are YOUR reasons for understanding col 1:15 pasēs as "over"? Do you agree that the actual greek shows "firstborn of all creation" but translators choose to translate "pases" as "over" due to dogma?

 

[Noose]

God the Son prayed to God the Father. I have no idea what is sad about it.

According to your reading, the Son only faked the prayer, because He and His Father are the same person.

God the Father, God the son and God the Holy spirit- three Gods right there but someone would have us believe that it is three persons, one God in the name of 'everything is possible with God'

 

[Noose]

Bible says so. Therefore its possible. Q.E.D.

No it doesn't- show me where it says 3 distinct persons in one being or even the phrase God the son, God the Father and God the Holy spirit or the phrase The Father is not the son and the Son is not the Holy spirit.

These are some of the phrases you coin as the arguments get tough and you realize you have to say something.

 

[trofimus]

Are you even reading what I'm writing???

At times translators add in words to convey what THEY believe the meaning of the text is over what the original text actually says. The NIV is not an accurate translation and is dogma biased. The translators even admitted to them perverting of Gods word in gain of money and in order for the NIV to get readers (http://www.elihubooks.com/data/topi...in_H_Palmer_to_Julie_Moore_re_divine_name.pdf).

Again, what are YOUR reasons for understanding col 1:15 pasēs as "over"? Do you agree that the actual greek shows "firstborn of all creation" but translators choose to translate "pases" as "over" due to dogma?

Again, its not "pasés" what is translated as "over". Pasés means "all".

Over is an additional word to expres the meaning of the Greek grammar.

Literal Greek is "firstborn all creation". There is neither "of" nor "over" nor "from".

 

[GodisONE]

American pentecostalism has been a source of so many heresies... I wonder why.

from someone influenced by Roman Catholic doctrine of 3 persons is quite priceless.

you want to know what pride is?

the fact that there is overwhelming evidence the Bible had scripture removed and replaced by this trinity lie and then people like you believe the lie.

since we know the Disciples and Paul baptized in the ONENESS FORMULA [Yeshua NAME ONLY], how can you be sure that EVERY trinity idea within the Bible was not added by the RCC?

clearly the Disciples and Paul don't suggest the trinity.

so, if there is a suggestion of it, one would understand it must be a add in.
well, anyone with a clue that is!!

 

[trofimus]

from someone influenced by Roman Catholic doctrine of 3 persons is quite priceless.

you want to know what pride is?

the fact that there is overwhelming evidence the Bible had scripture removed and replaced by this trinity lie and then people like you believe the lie.

since we know the Disciples and Paul baptized in the ONENESS FORMULA [Yeshua NAME ONLY], how can you be sure that EVERY trinity idea within the Bible was not added by the RCC?

clearly the Disciples and Paul don't suggest the trinity.

so, if there is a suggestion of it, one would understand it must be a add in.
well, anyone with a clue!!

Triunity is believed by protestants, by catholics and also by orthodox. Its universal belief from the first church. There is nothing "roman catholic" about it.

 

[blue_ladybug]

God the Father, God the son and God the Holy spirit- three Gods right there but someone would have us believe that it is three persons, one God in the name of 'everything is possible with God'

God IS God, God IS Jesus Christ, God IS the Holy Spirit. Together they make up the Trinity. We don't get to understand HOW He is all 3 entities at the same time... but suffice it to say, HE IS.

 

[GodisONE]

Triunity is believed by protestants, by catholics and also by orthodox. Its universal belief from the first church. There is nothing "roman catholic" about it.

THE FIRST CHURCH WAS THE DICIPLES AND PAUL WHO PREACHED AND BAPTIZED ONENESS!!

the church who created trinity WAS NOT the first church!!

how can you be so blind to know the DISCIPLES and PAUL preached and baptized ONENESS and think they were trinity?

 

[NWL]

Again, its not "pasés" what is translated as "over". Pasés means "all".

Over is an additional word to expres the meaning of the Greek grammar.

Literal Greek is "firstborn all creation". There is neither "of" nor "over" nor "from".

Ok so you're admitting that "over" is a complete insertion in Col 1:15, then please tell me why you kept trying to use the translation "over all creation" specifically highlighting the word "over" and its usage as reasons why Jesus can't be the literal firstborn of creation?

Since I can agree with you that the verse literally translated is "firstborn all creation", can you show me a single example in the bible where someone labelled as firstborn regarding a particular group where themselves are NOT in that group?

 

[GodisONE]

trofimus,

you will believe any lie if it is about the number THREE [3]!!

I have never interacted with someone as lost as you in my entire life.

you think a SPIRIT with no form is a PERSON hahahaha

just WOW!!

 

[trofimus]

THE FIRST CHURCH WAS THE DICIPLES AND PAUL WHO PREACHED AND BAPTIZED ONENESS!!

the church who created trinity WAS NOT the first church!!

how can you be so blind to know the DISCIPLES and PAUL preached and baptized ONENESS and think they were trinity?

Read the gospel of John. Its full of Trinity.