Calvinism vs. Arminianism?
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Forest has "explained" 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eph 1:13; Eze 33:11 in order to make them fit Calvinism.
What is your explanation?
If God only gives some people the ability to believe, and purposely withholds it from others, how is that fair? How is that just? How is that love? How is God not a respecter of persons? Our being ambassadors for Christ becomes meaningless. It is not meaningless. We are to persuade people to become reconciled to God.
What is your explanation?
If God only gives some people the ability to believe, and purposely withholds it from others, how is that fair? How is that just? How is that love? How is God not a respecter of persons? Our being ambassadors for Christ becomes meaningless. It is not meaningless. We are to persuade people to become reconciled to God.
That is exactly why I try to get you to understand 1 Cor 2:14, because according to it, the natural man, void of the Spirit, will not respond to a spiritual God, in drawing, granting, or any other thing that is of a spiritual nature. God puts spiritual life in the natural man when that man is "DEAD" in his sins and cannot respond to spiritual things Eph 2:5.
Well, both systems need to "explain" some verses. Therefore, none of these systems will be perfect. I think that Calvinism has less problems, though, both Scripturally and philosophically.
I do not know what is the right explanation of 1Tm 2:4. I know of several possibilites, but I am not certain which one is the one Paul meant.
2Pt 3:9 is, logically, about predestined ones. Because in the other case (God waiting for everybody), He would never come. New people are born all the time.
Eph 1:13 - I do not see anything specifically calvnistic or arminianistic in this verse...
Ez 33:11 is a good one for arminianism. i do not know how to make it fit to hard-core calvinism.
I do not know what is the right explanation of 1Tm 2:4. I know of several possibilites, but I am not certain which one is the one Paul meant.
2Pt 3:9 is, logically, about predestined ones. Because in the other case (God waiting for everybody), He would never come. New people are born all the time.
Eph 1:13 - I do not see anything specifically calvnistic or arminianistic in this verse...
Ez 33:11 is a good one for arminianism. i do not know how to make it fit to hard-core calvinism.
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That is true.
I believe the opposite is true.
I believe it means what it says, that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
I believe it as it is written, that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. It fits with 1 Tim 2:4, and John 3:16, "whosoever".
Forest insists that people are regenerated before they hear and believe the gospel. The verse says people hear the gospel, and when they believe it, THEN (at that time) they are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Forest found a way...
I believe the opposite is true.
I believe it means what it says, that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
I believe it as it is written, that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. It fits with 1 Tim 2:4, and John 3:16, "whosoever".
Forest insists that people are regenerated before they hear and believe the gospel. The verse says people hear the gospel, and when they believe it, THEN (at that time) they are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Forest found a way...
You're the one who does not understand it, Forest. Because you overstate the nature of the unsaved man, you have to distort many other scripture away from what they clearly state.
God is NOT responsible for making people believe. He wants all men to believe, He is not willing that any should perish (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9).
2 Cor 5:
20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Rom 10:
14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
God is NOT responsible for making people believe. He wants all men to believe, He is not willing that any should perish (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9).
2 Cor 5:
20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Rom 10:
14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
How do you harmonize 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9? No man comes to the Father but by Jesus Christ - salvation hinges on mankinds belief in Jesus Christ . . . The dream that Nebuchadnezzar had was the result of HIS worshipping other gods and demanding that others do the same and nothing that Nebuchadnezzar could do would change that except to "break off thy sins by righteousness and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquility."
Did Nebuchadnezzar break of his sins? Nope - The king spake, and said, Is not this the great Babylon, THAT I HAVE BUILT for the house of the kingdom BY THE MIGHT OF MY POWER, and for the HONOR OF MY MAJESTY? . . . . PRIDE caused the destruction that came upon Nebuchadnezzar - the fulfillment of his dream.
But when those days were fulfilled, those days prophesied through his dream, his understanding returned to him and he BLESSED THE MOST HIGH, and PRAISED AND HONORED him. So, God showed Nebuchadnezzar what would happen if he didn't break off his sins by doing righteousness and his iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor via the dream he had and that is exactly what was fulfilled.
That section of scripture has to do with King Nebuchadnezzar and him only but it does relate to Deut. 30:19: I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. Could he have chosen "to break of his sins" and change the events? Apparently so. (You will surely reap what you sow!!)
Did Nebuchadnezzar break of his sins? Nope - The king spake, and said, Is not this the great Babylon, THAT I HAVE BUILT for the house of the kingdom BY THE MIGHT OF MY POWER, and for the HONOR OF MY MAJESTY? . . . . PRIDE caused the destruction that came upon Nebuchadnezzar - the fulfillment of his dream.
But when those days were fulfilled, those days prophesied through his dream, his understanding returned to him and he BLESSED THE MOST HIGH, and PRAISED AND HONORED him. So, God showed Nebuchadnezzar what would happen if he didn't break off his sins by doing righteousness and his iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor via the dream he had and that is exactly what was fulfilled.
That section of scripture has to do with King Nebuchadnezzar and him only but it does relate to Deut. 30:19: I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. Could he have chosen "to break of his sins" and change the events? Apparently so. (You will surely reap what you sow!!
)
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The context of the verse in Peter is "why God delays with His coming". If God will wait for all invididuals to come to repentance, He will never come.
John 3:16 does not say "whosoever". Generally, J 3.16 cannot help arminians in any way. Not to say that the context is "calvinistic" - being born from above, Spirit goes wherever He wills etc.
John 3:16 does not say "whosoever". Generally, J 3.16 cannot help arminians in any way. Not to say that the context is "calvinistic" - being born from above, Spirit goes wherever He wills etc.
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At some point, there will be nobody else who will believe. God is waiting to give as many people as possible the chance to become saved.
In meaning it does. The invitation to get saved is extended to all people.
Also:
Rev 22:
17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
(no, I did not check the Greek as to what "whosoever" is translated from)
In meaning it does. The invitation to get saved is extended to all people.
Also:
Rev 22:
17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
(no, I did not check the Greek as to what "whosoever" is translated from)
You mean that all people will be dead, then God will come? Because until at least one man is breathing, he has a chance, does not he?
The Greek says "pas ho pisteuón", i.e. "all who believe". The verse does not say why they believe (if by God's gift or if by their own decision). Therefore I do not think John 3:16 is relevant for calvinism vs arminianism.
The Greek says "pas ho pisteuón", i.e. "all who believe". The verse does not say why they believe (if by God's gift or if by their own decision). Therefore I do not think John 3:16 is relevant for calvinism vs arminianism.
Come on, shrume. ;-) If you want to argue with this verse, it leads exactly to such ridiculous statements. Therefore, God waits only for people He knows they will come to Him. Not for all.
Can you give me some example from your life how you choose to believe? Because I do not know how to imagine such thing.
Can you give me some example from your life how you choose to believe? Because I do not know how to imagine such thing.
I actually think this is a brilliant point.
This verse is truly the lynchpin to the whole idea that PEOPLE choose to be saved. It is where I personally have ran to in the past to attempt a defense of men choosing God, rather than God choosing men. If it collapses totally, the other defensive verses can't stand either.
The Creator of the Universe, that is NOT willing that ANY (every human that lives or ever did live) should perish, who hasn't come back to judge the living and the dead yet, BECAUSE He is waiting for ALL to repent? Or just those He KNOWS and Chose to repent?
Because as Trofimus said, if it's the former, then He will NEVER return to judge the living and the dead.
This verse is truly the lynchpin to the whole idea that PEOPLE choose to be saved. It is where I personally have ran to in the past to attempt a defense of men choosing God, rather than God choosing men. If it collapses totally, the other defensive verses can't stand either.
The Creator of the Universe, that is NOT willing that ANY (every human that lives or ever did live) should perish, who hasn't come back to judge the living and the dead yet, BECAUSE He is waiting for ALL to repent? Or just those He KNOWS and Chose to repent?
Because as Trofimus said, if it's the former, then He will NEVER return to judge the living and the dead.
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trofimus,
You and I, and everyone else, chooses to believe things daily. For example, now that we know that the mainstream media are propagandists for the Left-Liberals in the USA, we refuse to believe their spin on the news, and their hypocritical criticisms of the POTUS.
As to choosing to believe the Gospel, every sinner must make a decision to either obey the Gospel or not obey the Gospel. That is a CHOICE. Since God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), people who hear the Gospel, or read the Gospel message, must either obey God or disobey Him. And that is exactly what Adam and Eve were faced with. They chose to disobey.
The essential truth is that God does not elect some for salvation and others for damnation. That nullifies the Gospel, therefore it is lie of the Devil.
You and I, and everyone else, chooses to believe things daily. For example, now that we know that the mainstream media are propagandists for the Left-Liberals in the USA, we refuse to believe their spin on the news, and their hypocritical criticisms of the POTUS.
As to choosing to believe the Gospel, every sinner must make a decision to either obey the Gospel or not obey the Gospel. That is a CHOICE. Since God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), people who hear the Gospel, or read the Gospel message, must either obey God or disobey Him. And that is exactly what Adam and Eve were faced with. They chose to disobey.
The essential truth is that God does not elect some for salvation and others for damnation. That nullifies the Gospel, therefore it is lie of the Devil.
There is biblical evidence for God not knowing everything.
Gen 2:
19) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Gen 6:
6) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7) And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 22:
12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Jer 7: (NIV)
31) They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire-something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.
God knows everything that is available to know, but it is not possible to know ahead of time every decision we as free will beings will make before those decisions are made.
Simply accept it as true.
Gen 2:
19) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Gen 6:
6) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7) And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 22:
12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Jer 7: (NIV)
31) They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire-something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.
God knows everything that is available to know, but it is not possible to know ahead of time every decision we as free will beings will make before those decisions are made.
Simply accept it as true.