Rapture

[Absolutely]

In your first sentence, you are [likely] referring to (and if so, I would agree):

Matthew 24 -

"16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

Here, we see that it is "them which be in Judaea" who will be specifically the ones who are to "flee into the mountains" (which I do believe corresponds with Rev12:6,14-16).

I also believe there will be those "of Israel" living all over the world (at that time) who will also be coming to faith within that time period (those are all the ones who will be delivering the specific message of Matt24:14[26:13]/Matt22:8-14/Rev19:9[distinct from 19:7] DURING the future tribulation period. The "invitation" TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (which is the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" there).

The "SHEEP/goats" (of the Gentiles/nations [plural]) of Matt25:31-34 are the "guests [plural]" who will have been "INVITED" (to the earthly MK--the wedding FEAST/SUPPER), but [of those] only do "the righteous [the 'ye BLESSED' / the Sheep]" actually enter the MK time period. This is one of the texts (of a number of them) that show STILL-LIVING/MORTAL persons entering the earthly MK time period. [the "ye CURSED" will not enter, as we know]

There is no "resurrection" in such passages (this is not to say there won't be any "resurrection" at that time; I already pointed out Dan12:13 [OT saints], and Rev20:4 [trib saints who die in the trib]). This is separate (and is not describing) our "Rapture".

That scenario is way off.
Those originally invited but refuse are jews. They reject their own promised messiah. Those groups that do attend are the born again believers that are in heaven during the trib.
End times is not mentally discerned.
You guys refuse to test fit your scenarios.
I will keep cleaning them up for you.

 

[Absolutely]

... tried to edit that last addition ^ ...

So my point, there, is to say, take a look at the context (or contexts) where "IN THAT DAY" is used alongside (in same context) as the phrase "the day of the Lord" and one can see that, not only is it not a 24-hr day, but in THIS context, shows the contrast of the positive responders with the negative responders IN THAT [future] DAY [which is obviously a time period of some DURATION, JUST LIKE "the day of salvation" ALSO is!], which is [will be] "the day of the Lord" (the time period... not a 24-hr day!)

Jesus and the patriarchs are the firstfruits.
Take a look at harvest. ( that is WHY firstfruits concept is a key component)
Harvest is 4 parts.
Firstfruits
Main
Corners
Gleaners
Main is the rapture
Corners and gleaners is rev 14
All these harvested ones are brought to heaven.
We all return after the trib
( you know,how vividly depicted by Jesus using Noahs example of being taken a mile into the sky and return AFTER THE FLOOD ( TRIB)

Correct; he was not taken after the flood.
Wonder why Jesus used Lot? I mean surely Jesus must have known Lot was a pretrib deliverance????

 

[Absolutely]

Lets see, Jesus used 2 pretrib examples.

Now which camp has it bacwards?

 

[Absolutely]

(3rd post)

[bluto--]


[TDW--]

The phrase "Son of man" is His role in relation to Israel and their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom. ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come," etc, refer to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (not to our Rapture "in the air"). [His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]," aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth]" upon His "RETURN" there]

"OUR" [the Church which is His body] "citizenship is in heaven," and we are not to "mind earthly things" (Israel's "earthly things") but are instead to "set our mind on things above" (because very important things have taken place, per that text, with regard to "the Church which is His body"--again, note "WHEN" Eph1:20-23).


[bluto--]


[TDW--]

We don't need to be praying that.

There WILL BE people in the tribulation period who will need to be praying that, in order for them to "[ACTIVELY] FLEE OUT OF" each and every thing that will take place on the earth during that time period, and to "stand before the Son of man" (that is, at His "RETURN" TO THE EARTH, FOR the earthly MK). People will be coming to faith WITHIN the tribulation period.

Nobody is to be praying for strength in order to be raptured ["Rapture" is NOT that verse's CONTEXT]; what Scripture says of US ("the Church which is His body") is this: 1Th5:10, "the One having died for us, [in order] THAT whether we should watch or whether we should sleep [same Grk word as in verse 6! (not meaning "DEATH" here!)] we should live together WITH [G4862 - syn - denoting UNION] HIM."

Um no.
It clearly states all take the mark.
All take it or die.
Only in the mind of men are the church sprinting from cave to cave.
The 5 foolish virgins stay and deal with that very component. The die. They are martyred. They are the innumerable number IN HEAVEN DURING THE TRIB.

 

[Absolutely]

Bluto said,



Nothing makes sense in pre-trib. I use to be a pre-tribber too.

I think, but not sure because pre-trib is such a fabricated mess, they'll tell you the Marriage Supper of the Lamb occurs immediately after the pre-trib rapture....another major contradiction.

I need to get away from this forum for a while. Most of the people here don't have or even know what a hermeneutic is. This is a place where Abel was an apostle who took the gospel to Cain, where buying and selling means worship and spiritual truth hidden in parables, where 1,000 years doesn't mean 1,000 years, where believers that die have their souls resurrected to indwell the hearts of other living believers here on earth, where the gathering and parousia happen 7 years apart even when the gathering is said to happen at the parousia, and where we are already in tribulation.

I think you Bluto and Spoonjuly I think it is, are the few that make sense here. I feel like I'm wasting my time, it's not worth the effort dealing with this foolishness. I'll work on my website instead and leave the rest of them to their delusions.

I'm going on vacation away from the people on this forum for a while.

Well i am pretrib.
Pick a verse. I will gladly go there with you.

I am bride /bridegroom centered.
From what you have posted, you appear trib centered. But maybe not.
I am game. Ben in it for years,and it is a glorious harmony once the purpose is revealed.

 

[Absolutely]

I know the feeling brother.
Like talking to a fence post.

Present your case.
I am pretrib and can easily defend my position.
The difference in me is; i test all positions.
Only pretrib incorporates pretrib verses.
Go watch the teachings of the other positions. They are FORCED to lie.

 

[garee]

Um no.
It clearly states all take the mark.
All take it or die.
Only in the mind of men are the church sprinting from cave to cave.
The 5 foolish virgins stay and deal with that very component. The die. They are martyred. They are the innumerable number IN HEAVEN DURING THE TRIB.

The mark is not a literal mark . It is the mark of Cain. One who is not elected by grace . He does not receive the rest we do have in Christ as believers. His heart remained hard all the days of his life.

And a marty is simply a witness . All saints that live in a body of death die.

The Amil position works the best to explain the end time events

 

[garee]

According to Paul's writing (what he was given to write), the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" (the SAME GRK WORD Jesus used in the PLURAL, Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8 "PANGS"), so the INITIAL "SINGULAR" birth PANG (that which kicks off the whole time period) has not yet ARRIVED

[I've pointed out how 1Th5:2-3 the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" = the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of "the man of sin [2Th2:9a / Dan9:27a(26) - "for ONE WEEK [7yrs]"] = Matt24:4/Mk13:5's "G5100 - tis - A CERTAIN ONE" = SEAL #1... ALL THIS is the same item when "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES... it hasn't arrived to play out on the earth yet. ONE THING must happen "FIRST" (THE DEPARTURE/RAPTURE--that is the SEQUENCE, here); the INITIAL "birth PANG" of many MORE to follow, has not yet begun! (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 has not been occurring over the past some 2000 years! and the SEQUENCE even within the Olivet Discourse shows the 70ad events had to occur "before all these [beginning of birth pangs]" even... there's more to say on that...]

Rebirth pains in a hope to be born again, given a new spirt that will never die began in the Garden . This is shown by Adam and Eve covering their nakedness. (no faith)

 

[bluto]

Present your case.
I am pretrib and can easily defend my position.
The difference in me is; i test all positions.
Only pretrib incorporates pretrib verses.
Go watch the teachings of the other positions. They are FORCED to lie.

Come on absolutely, with an "ego" like yours how do you make it through doorways? Do you really think your the only one that has studied this issue and tested the various positions, for years and years I might add? And some of us have presented our cases by using the Bible and not making stuff up by using "eisegesis."

Now, I think you said something about answering all questions so here is my question? I still have not heard from you guys a resonable and biblical explanation of Hebrews 9:27,28, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die "ONCE" and after this comes judgement, (as a side note this verse shoots down reincarnation). vs28, so Christ also, having been offered ONCE to bear the sins of many, shall appear a SECOND TIME for salvation/deliverance WITHOUT reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

Like I've been saying in my post from 2 Thessalonians 1:6,7 when we will get "rest/relief/repose?" It's when Jesus Christ appears or is revealed at His second and only coming. So absolutely, tell us all here where are you going to "jackhammer" the pre-trib rapture fit into these verses?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[...] by using the Bible and not making stuff up by using "eisegesis."

Now, I think you said something about answering all questions so here is my question? I still have not heard from you guys a resonable and biblical explanation of Hebrews 9:27,28, [...]

bluto, I've got a bit of a Bible study for you, regarding that verse you've been asking about. I've done most of the hard work, but it still will require you to dig into this a bit, yourself.

Consider the following (and this is just a small part of it... I don't want to make this a super long post):

Hebrews 9:28 YLT - [I've purposely put this verse in sections, so you can grasp my point, hopefully]

"so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many,

a second time apart from a sin-offering [/sin] shall appear,

to those waiting for him -- to salvation!"


[response to the idea that Heb9:28 refers to how Jesus ONLY comes at His Second Coming to the earth, not a separate time for our Rapture--Heb9:28 refers to neither of these...]


From Hebrews 9:28 (where a "passive" form of G3708 ['appear'] is used)...

out of the 684 usages of "G3708," [I did the leg work for you]

TEN times that the word "[G3708] appear [PASSIVE]" is used regarding Jesus,

ALL TEN of them refer to AFTER His death/resurrection [NONE "BEFORE"--now re-examine Heb9:28 with closer scrutiny!]

(and it was only to carefully chosen witnesses, not to every person everywhere):

1) Luke 24:34
2) Acts 9:17
3) Acts 13:31
4) Acts 26:16
5) Acts 26:16 [2nd usage in this verse]
6) 1 Corinthians 15:5
7) 1 Corinthians 15:6
8) 1 Corinthians 15:7
9) 1 Corinthians 15:8
10) 1 Timothy 3:16


Note: the ONE OTHER verse that speaks of Jesus' "appeared [passive]" (also following His resurrection) is a completely different word, "G5316 - ephanē - passive" ...

and that verse is,

--Mark 16:9 saying, "He appeared [G5316 - ephanē] first to Mary Magdalene..."

So in light of how the passive form of "appear [G3708; passive]" [just as in Heb9:28] is used of JESUS (ALL AFTER His resurrection, in the 40-days He shewed Himself, PLUS ['last of all'] to Paul even AFTER His visible ascension)...

TEN TIMES referred to in Scripture, we can begin to see a clearer picture of what Hebrews 9:28 is actually conveying.


The pattern [previously mentioned by me in this thread] holds true.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I think we all believe that at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, it will be VISIBLE TO ALL (believer and unbeliever alike!)

 

[Absolutely]

Come on absolutely, with an "ego" like yours how do you make it through doorways? Do you really think your the only one that has studied this issue and tested the various positions, for years and years I might add? And some of us have presented our cases by using the Bible and not making stuff up by using "eisegesis."

Now, I think you said something about answering all questions so here is my question? I still have not heard from you guys a resonable and biblical explanation of Hebrews 9:27,28, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die "ONCE" and after this comes judgement, (as a side note this verse shoots down reincarnation). vs28, so Christ also, having been offered ONCE to bear the sins of many, shall appear a SECOND TIME for salvation/deliverance WITHOUT reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

Like I've been saying in my post from 2 Thessalonians 1:6,7 when we will get "rest/relief/repose?" It's when Jesus Christ appears or is revealed at His second and only coming. So absolutely, tell us all here where are you going to "jackhammer" the pre-trib rapture fit into these verses?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I will look it up,but i believe it says "appointed"
It does appear us pretribs miss that appointment lol.
But by skewing that verse as pivotal,you also need to factor in all those that were raised from the dead and died again. I would say it is a non issue.
Not sure what your second question is.
But i will tell you this,those in heaven are comforted and are with Jesus DURING the trib. So rest would be present also in heaven during the trib

 

[Absolutely]

The mark is not a literal mark . It is the mark of Cain. One who is not elected by grace . He does not receive the rest we do have in Christ as believers. His heart remained hard all the days of his life.

And a marty is simply a witness . All saints that live in a body of death die.

The Amil position works the best to explain the end time events

Not true
You made all that up. Sorry for my ego. Lol

 

[Absolutely]

My apologies to all for an apparent ego.
Or would that be true. I thought it was a weight problem. I will look into it.

 

[Absolutely]

Watch
Wait
Be ready
Pray that you be counted worthy
Pray the last words of Jesus
" come Lord Jesus"
The spirit and the bride say come
Won't you listen?
Won't you let that cry of heaven permeate you?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

quick follow-up note to my previous post (just in case it isn't clear to the readers), I do believe Hebrews 9:28 is referring to something FUTURE (and that the "ten verses" refer to what has occurred in our past, but after His resurrection). Just to clarify.

 

[Absolutely]

quick follow-up note to my previous post (just in case it isn't clear to the readers), I do believe Hebrews 9:28 is referring to something FUTURE (and that the "ten verses" refer to what has occurred in our past, but after His resurrection). Just to clarify.

10 verses?
10 virgins?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

10 verses?
10 virgins?

Well, let me just say this about the "Ten Virgins". I don't believe they represent "the Church which is His body" (of whom the "Rapture" solely pertains). I suspect you do. [?]

I believe, as I've stated previously in this thread (I think I did), that the "Ten Virgins" pertains to [their going into] the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [Rev19:9 (distinct from 19:7); Matt22:8-14nasb; Lk12:36-37,40,42-44; and many other "BLESSED" passages (ex: Dan12:12), as well as the "shall sit down [G347--at a meal, around a table]" Matt8:11 and parallel, passages]). Only 5 of them [the PLURAL virginS] DO, according to Matt25. But this is not referring to the setting/context of our "Rapture [in the air]" [as ONE]; RATHER, His Second Coming to the earth (FOR the earthly MK).

They go in "with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] Him" to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [earthly MK].

[distinct from the "WITH [G4862 - syn - denoting UNION]" used regarding "the Church which is His body"... in passages such as 1Th4]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That scenario is way off.

[...]

You guys refuse to test fit your scenarios.
I will keep cleaning them up for you.

Your comment here made me think of something funny (so take this post in the light-hearted way it is intended ):

at the time of this posting, I happened to notice there've been exactly "1421 views".

For fun, I looked up the Strong's Concordance word in the Greek under that number (for the "word of the day" type study, nothing mystical, mind you). It is this:

Hebrews 5:11 [blb] -

"Concerning this there is much speech from us, and difficult in interpretation [G1421] to speak, since you have become sluggish in the hearings."

https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/5-11.htm

G1421 - dysermēneutos

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

10 verses?
10 virgins?

Hey Abs,

This just dawned on me. If you are asking whether I made a typo, the answer is, no... I was referring to the "ten verses" I covered in my post #250 of this thread (in case that's what you meant).