IS MARY THE WOMAN IN REVELATION CHAPTER 12?

[Ahwatukee]

Brother ahwatukee

I have question.

1. When the man child rule with rod of iron, in the past or future?

Good day Jackson,

Understand this, when Jesus appeared on the earth as a human being, Israel did not recognize the time of their visitation, the appearing of their Messiah. They had the prophesy of Isaiah 7:14 which says, "The Lord Himself will give you a sign. A virgin shall conceive and will bring forth a son and His name will be called Immanuel," which means "God with us." We also have the prophesy in Daniel which gave them the time that their Messiah would show up as revealed in Daniel 9:24-27. Seventy seven year periods or 490 years where decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, the beginning of which was the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem with the Messiah being cut off at the sixty ninth seven. Therefore, Israel should have been waiting for their Messiah and recognized Jesus when He arrived and began to perform His miracles, but they didn't. Since Israel did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah, not believing in Him, they are still waiting to this very day.

In the future, after the church has been gathered and during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, there will be 144,000 who will come out of unbelieving Israel, 12,000 from each tribe, who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. The reference to the woman/Israel giving birth, is referring to these 144,000 Israelite believers coming out of unbelieving Israel.

"They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

The reference to Jesus ruling with a rod of iron is referring to His millennial kingdom, with the church, the 144,000 and the great tribulation saints all ruling with Christ during that thousand year period.

2. To my knowledge Jesus is groom, the church is bride

Who ever believe in Jesus is part of the church, so 144000 Israel that believe in Jesus is bride.

The end of the church period comes when the Lord appears to gather his church as promised in John 14:1-3 and I Thes.4:13-18. After that, believers in Christ are never referred to as the church, but as Saints. Rev.4:1-2 is prophetic allusion to when the church is gathered. Then in Rev.7:9-17 we are introduced to another group which is not the church, but are referred to as the great tribulation saints. These are those who will have become believers after the church will have been gathered. They will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will not have worshipped the beast, his image nor received his mark. Likewise, the 144,000 do not belong to the church, but to Israel. Though the church is made up of both believing Jew and Gentiles, Israel is a different program. They are not the church.

Everyone who became a believer from the on-set of the church until this present time and up to the time of the resurrection, belongs to the church. During the narrative of God's wrath which is from chapters 6 through 18, you will never see believers of that time referred to as the church.

Rev 12:5 say man child. If a church or 144000 Israel that believe in Jesus consider bride, why man child, not woman child.?

"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” - Rev.12:5

"These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins." - Rev.14:4

The woman (unbelieving Israel) gives birth to a Male Child (144,000 believers} who will not have defiled themselves with woman, which would make the 144,000 all males and therefore, the Male Child.

 

[Lillywolf]

Ezekiel 16 tells us God referred to his chosen people by the term, women. The 12 stars garland about the woman's head in Revelation 12, that has God protecting the woman, would then be the 12 tribes of his people, see the reference to that in Genesis 37.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ezekiel 16 tells us God referred to his chosen people by the term, women. The 12 stars garland about the woman's head in Revelation 12, that has God protecting the woman, would then be the 12 tribes of his people, see the reference to that in Genesis 37.

Good day Lillywolf,

I am in agreement with you regarding Israel as being "The woman" of Revelation 12. However, we have to be careful as to not pigeonhole words like woman, trumpet, thousand, star and the like. We should also discern between whether the word in question is being used literally or symbolically. The context should always be considered first in determining the use of a word. For example, though the woman in Revelation 12 is symbolic representing Israel, "the woman who rides the beast in Revelation 17 is not the same woman. The church is also symbolically referred to as a woman, the bride of Christ and is not the same woman of Revelation 12 or 17. Therefore, it is the information contained within the context that should lead to a right conclusion.

 

[Jackson123]

Good day Jackson,

Understand this, when Jesus appeared on the earth as a human being, Israel did not recognize the time of their visitation, the appearing of their Messiah. They had the prophesy of Isaiah 7:14 which says, "The Lord Himself will give you a sign. A virgin shall conceive and will bring forth a son and His name will be called Immanuel," which means "God with us." We also have the prophesy in Daniel which gave them the time that their Messiah would show up as revealed in Daniel 9:24-27. Seventy seven year periods or 490 years where decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, the beginning of which was the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem with the Messiah being cut off at the sixty ninth seven. Therefore, Israel should have been waiting for their Messiah and recognized Jesus when He arrived and began to perform His miracles, but they didn't. Since Israel did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah, not believing in Him, they are still waiting to this very day.

In the future, after the church has been gathered and during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, there will be 144,000 who will come out of unbelieving Israel, 12,000 from each tribe, who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. The reference to the woman/Israel giving birth, is referring to these 144,000 Israelite believers coming out of unbelieving Israel.

"They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

The reference to Jesus ruling with a rod of iron is referring to His millennial kingdom, with the church, the 144,000 and the great tribulation saints all ruling with Christ during that thousand year period.



The end of the church period comes when the Lord appears to gather his church as promised in John 14:1-3 and I Thes.4:13-18. After that, believers in Christ are never referred to as the church, but as Saints. Rev.4:1-2 is prophetic allusion to when the church is gathered. Then in Rev.7:9-17 we are introduced to another group which is not the church, but are referred to as the great tribulation saints. These are those who will have become believers after the church will have been gathered. They will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will not have worshipped the beast, his image nor received his mark. Likewise, the 144,000 do not belong to the church, but to Israel. Though the church is made up of both believing Jew and Gentiles, Israel is a different program. They are not the church.

Everyone who became a believer from the on-set of the church until this present time and up to the time of the resurrection, belongs to the church. During the narrative of God's wrath which is from chapters 6 through 18, you will never see believers of that time referred to as the church.



"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” - Rev.12:5

"These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins." - Rev.14:4

The woman (unbelieving Israel) gives birth to a Male Child (144,000 believers} who will not have defiled themselves with woman, which would make the 144,000 all males and therefore, the Male Child.

So you believe Jesus and the saint rule with rod iron in the milenial kingdom.

And you believe rev 12:5 refer to the 144000 jew that believe in Jesus.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

In this verse say she .........man child ........... and her child was cought up unto God

Your interpretation have problem here.

1 you believe the child oN verse 5 is 144000 believer jews and remain oN earth, the sentence oN verse 5 continue say

Her child was cought up......

You believe child mean church.


There are 2 word child in verse 5, why the first you interprate 144000 jews that remain oN earth, and the other word child you interprate a church.

It is in the same verse, must be same meaning?

 

[Lillywolf]

Good day Lillywolf,

I am in agreement with you regarding Israel as being "The woman" of Revelation 12. However, we have to be careful as to not pigeonhole words like woman, trumpet, thousand, star and the like. We should also discern between whether the word in question is being used literally or symbolically. The context should always be considered first in determining the use of a word. For example, though the woman in Revelation 12 is symbolic representing Israel, "the woman who rides the beast in Revelation 17 is not the same woman. The church is also symbolically referred to as a woman, the bride of Christ and is not the same woman of Revelation 12 or 17. Therefore, it is the information contained within the context that should lead to a right conclusion.

Thanks.
I was simply opining on the thread topic itself and the particular chapter in Revelation that is being discussed.

 

[Ahwatukee]

So you believe Jesus and the saint rule with rod iron in the milenial kingdom.

And you believe rev 12:5 refer to the 144000 Jew that believe in Jesus?

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

In this verse say she .........man child ........... and her child was cought up unto God

Yes, as I said, the Male Child is a collective name representing the 144,000 who come out of the twelve tribes of Israel. As an example of a "collect name" we see that when the man in Luke was possessed, he said that his name was "Legion" because many demons had gone into him. Well, the name "Legion" was collectively representing thousands of demons who had gone into the man. In the same way, the "Male Child" is a collective name representing a 144,000 Israelites who will acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah, who unbelieving Israel gives birth to.

Your interpretation have problem here.

1 you believe the child oN verse 5 is 144000 believer jews and remain oN earth, the sentence oN verse 5 continue say

Her child was cought up...…

There is no problem with the interpretation, as the Male child/144,000 will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years.

You believe child mean church.

No, I don't believe the male child is the church. The church is no longer on the earth at that time and is not even mention within the narrative of God's wrath.

There are 2 word child in verse 5, why the first you interprate 144000 jews that remain oN earth, and the other word child you interprate a church.

I never said that. The church is nowhere mentioned in chapter 12 of Revelation. The male child is collectively representing the 144,000 who come out of (gives birth to) the woman Israel.

 

[Jackson123]

So who is the woman, when the woman appear before tribulation or after. where is the church?

 

[MattforJesus]

If she is not the woman there then who?

And how will you explain the child bore, the suns, moon and stars with the verses of the Bible?

Mary is not the woman, but it is speaking of Israel.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Gen 37:3 Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours.
Gen 37:4 And when his brethren saw that their father loved him more than all his brethren, they hated him, and could not speak peaceably unto him.
Gen 37:5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.
Gen 37:6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:
Gen 37:7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
Gen 37:8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.
Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Gen 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Israel is the woman, the 12 stars is the 12 tribes, and the sun and the moon is Joseph's father Jacob, and mother, and the 12 stars are the 12 tribes of Israel.

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Jesus is the child that came through the nation of Israel.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

The red dragon is Satan, and the 7 heads are the 7 kingdoms on earth, 1.Egypt 2.Assyria 3.Babylon 4.Medo-Persia 5.Greece 6.Roman Empire 7.Ten horn kingdom, the world split in to ten sections with a leader in each section, which is in the future.

The crowns are on the heads of the dragon which means Satan deceiving in the spiritual realm by way of the 7 kingdoms, which the 8th king is of the 7 kings, which means the devil influenced those 7 kingdoms.

In chapter 13 the crowns are on the horns, which means Satan deceiving in the natural realm by the New Age Christ, and the deadly wound to one of his heads is the ten horn kingdom that failed at providing peace for the world, so they turn to the man of sin as the solution to have peace on earth, which he gave them hope, and the answer for there to be peace, and the deadly wound was healed.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The rebellion of Lucifer and the angels that followed him.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Jesus that was caught up to the throne of God, and Jesus will rule in the future with a rod of iron after He defeats the world, and saves Israel, and the kingdom shall be restored to Israel, and in that day the LORD shall be King over all the earth, and there shall be one LORD, and His name one, and the knowledge of the LORD shall cover the whole earth as the waters cover the sea.

Jesus and the saints will rule over one sixth of the army that fought against Jerusalem, the Jews, and the heathen have to go up year after year to worship the LORD, and keep the feast of tabernacles.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

It does not make sense for this to apply to Mary.

The Bible says that 70 weeks is determined upon Israel to make an end of sins, and anoint the most holy who is Jesus, which 69 weeks have passed, which the Israel as a nation has not done that yet, so the 70th week could of not been fulfilled.

Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and so all Israel shall be saved.

The 7 years period is the time that God will cause all people who do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom, and when they do and take the mark of the beast, which has to do with technology, then salvation is no longer available to them, and then God will turn Israel as a nation to the truth for the last three and one half years.

Israel is protected from physical attack for the first three and one half years.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Some people think that this war already happened, but it did not.

When the nations come together and say Peace and safety as they try to establish peace on earth, the 7 years period will begin, and sudden destruction will come upon them like a woman in travail with child, and they shall not escape.

The 6 trumpets are 6 disasters, warnings, to try to turn the world to God, which He is giving the world a chance to turn to Him and stop their agenda of trying to establish peace on earth by their own efforts, and stopping the preaching of the Gospel, and a higher power.

Which an example is WW1, set up League of Nations, did not turn to God, WW2, set up United Nations, did not turn to God, and that pattern will continue until the 6th trumpet, Islam versus the world for they rebel because of their belief in Allah their God which the world is not allowing them to extend their religion or preach it for it is a hate crime, and the Muslims feel they must fight.

That fight will be so terrible as to cause one third of the population of the world to perish, mainly in the Arab nations, which describes nuclear weapons in Revelation chapter 9, and the man of sin plucks up 3 horns by the roots, 3 sections of the world, which leaves them devastated and without power or growth.

The ten horn kingdom failed at obtaining peace on earth, but they do not turn to God, but they turn to the New Age Christ as the solution to have peace on earth, so God gives them the man of sin to rule over them for the last three and one half years.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Satan is the prince of the power of the air, and war will break out in heaven after the first three and one half years that God gave the world a chance to turn to Him, and the devils are cast to earth, and Satan appears as the New Age Christ, and the earth becomes the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird, and the earth becomes their holding cell.

The devils will deceive all people who do not love God, and do not hold the testimony of Jesus, and keep the commandments of God, which is the strong delusion that God will send them for having pleasure in unrighteousness.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The devil knows he is a defeated foe, but will try to take away as many people as possible physically, and spiritually, for God is giving the beast power over all nations, kindreds, and tongues, to deceive all people that do not love God so He can end this sin business on earth.

Continued,

 

[MattforJesus]

Continued,

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Again the woman cannot apply to Mary that is nourished for three and one half years.

Israel is protected for the last three and one half years from physical attack, but the devil persecuted her seed which is the saints that acknowledge Jesus.

Which the Bible says that the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first, which is the world in response to the Gospel, which for the first three and one half years it is international law that the Gospel cannot be preached, or a higher power, and the time that they will not endure the truth of the Bible, but according to their own lusts, power through nature to evolve, for their interpretation of the Bible is based on no personal God, but honor the God of forces, the power of nature, and evolution, and people can still evolve, and Jesus is not Lord and Savior, but a good teacher in the evolutionary process and love, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher in the evolutionary process that will cause them to evolve to be greater and spiritual, and an ascended master and avatar like the man Jesus.

When the beast claims to be God in the middle of the 7 years period then the saints can be gathered unto Christ, but he persecutes the saints for the last three and one half years.

Which he makes war against the saints and prevails against them.

And he shall destroy the mighty and holy people.

And the saints shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years.

And when he has scattered the power of the holy people then all things are finished.

Which then comes the end when the Son has delivered up the kingdom to the Father.

The beast makes war against the saints worldwide, which cannot be speaking of the Jews worldwide, and not Gentile saints, for the peace treaty caused all Jews to go back to Israel, which God said He is going to gather the whole house of Jacob, all 12 tribes, back to their land, and leave none of them in the nations anymore, and they will know the LORD their God from that time forward, and He will never hide His face from them again.

He persecutes all the Gentile and Jewish saints, and there is no pre-trib resurrection.

There is only 2 resurrections, one of the saints before the millennial reign, and one of the dead after the millennial reign.

Jesus said once He shuts the door of the first resurrection, then no Gentile after that can enter.

Jesus said the hypocrites will not make it in the resurrection.

Repentance and salvation is still available to the world for the first three and one half years, so the saints will remain on earth.

The Gospel must be preached unto all the world, as a witness to all nations, and then the resurrection shall happen.

So if it is pre-trib resurrection then no Gentile can be saved after that, and the hypocrites will not make it, and the Gospel is preached in the world which they know about it, so if they did not take heed to it they cannot have salvation.

If it is pre-trib no Gentile can be saved after that, but salvation is still available to the world for the first three and one half years, and the beast makes war against Gentile saints for the last three and one half years.

 

[garee]

Good day Lillywolf,

I am in agreement with you regarding Israel as being "The woman" of Revelation 12. However, we have to be careful as to not pigeonhole words like woman, trumpet, thousand, star and the like. We should also discern between whether the word in question is being used literally or symbolically. The context should always be considered first in determining the use of a word. For example, though the woman in Revelation 12 is symbolic representing Israel, "the woman who rides the beast in Revelation 17 is not the same woman. The church is also symbolically referred to as a woman, the bride of Christ and is not the same woman of Revelation 12 or 17. Therefore, it is the information contained within the context that should lead to a right conclusion.

When looking at the parable (Revelation 12) We must understand the signified language hides the spiritual understanding from the flesh of all nations. Its not a Jewish religion adapted for the gentiles for some reason or other . God is no respecter of persons

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Because not all Israel is born again Israel, as an inward Jew pertaining to those born again Spirit of Christ . But rather she who has the Sun and Moon as temporal time keepers under her feet (the end of time has come) is the chaste virgin bride the church.

She is typified by Timothy a chaste virgin as Paul acts as a surrogate mother .Paul as in birth pains held out the gospel to Timothy, hoping Christ would be formed in him in respect to the spiritual seed (Christ)

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

She is identified as the mother of us all in Galatians 4.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Galiatians 4:26

We know the woman is not the strange woman as natural unconverted mankind. She is as outward Jew used to represent unconverted pertaining to the flesh was given a bill of divorce.

 

[Ahwatukee]

So who is the woman, when the woman appear before tribulation or after. where is the church?

The church will be in heaven, just as the Lord promised when He told His disciples and all believers, that in His Father's are many rooms and that He was going there to prepare a place for us. And He said that He would come back to get us to take us back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us:

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

I Thes.4:13-17 is a detailed account of when Jesus comes back for His church to take us to the Father's house.

 

[Jackson123]

The church will be in heaven, just as the Lord promised when He told His disciples and all believers, that in His Father's are many rooms and that He was going there to prepare a place for us. And He said that He would come back to get us to take us back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us:

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

I Thes.4:13-17 is a detailed account of when Jesus comes back for His church to take us to the Father's house.

My question is who is the women in rev 12, and when this woman in rev 12 appear, when she give birth man child. Was she give birth man child after or before 7 years tribulation.

 

[garee]

The church will be in heaven, just as the Lord promised when He told His disciples and all believers, that in His Father's are many rooms and that He was going there to prepare a place for us. And He said that He would come back to get us to take us back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us:

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

I Thes.4:13-17 is a detailed account of when Jesus comes back for His church to take us to the Father's house.

That would seem to avoid II Thessalonians 2:7 or 8, where God teaches about the rebellion that must come. And then it informs us that "He that restraineth will be taken out of the way.""He who restraineth" sin is God the Holy Spirit, because God is the one who restrains sin.

From my experience there are those who read that verse, and they say, "our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, God indwells us". And if the Holy Spirit indwells us and He is taken out of the way, that implies that the church must have been raptured."

I believe thats reading a whole lot more into that sentence than we find there. Actually God the Holy Spirit is not confined to the lives of born again believers. God the Holy Spirit is active throughout the world and He indeed restrains sin. But if He simply allows sin to increase. In other words if He takes Himself away in that sense in so much, He allows wickedness to grow, as He teaches it must happen, in Matthew 24 ("Wickedness will multiply and most men's love will grow cold"), that is not saying for a moment that the believers have been taken out of the way. That is not suggesting that.

It is not the believers who restrain sin or cause Christian growth . It is God who restrains sin and cause growth.

The Amil position works the best

 

[Ahwatukee]

My question is who is the women in rev 12, and when this woman in rev 12 appear, when she give birth man child. Was she give birth man child after or before 7 years tribulation.

According to Gen.37:9-10, the sun, moon and stars symbolically represent Israel.

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

As you can see from the scripture, Joseph had a dream with the sun being symbolic representing Jacob, with the moon representing his wife/wives and the eleven stars representing Jacob's eleven sons, with Joseph being number 12.

In Rev.12, God used the same symbols from Genesis to identify who the woman represents, she being clothed with the sun (Jacob), with the moon (wife) under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars (Jacob's twelve sons).

The woman as a whole then represents the nation Israel.

and when does this woman in rev 12 appear, when she give birth man child. Was she give birth man child after or before 7 years tribulation.

In Rev.12, the woman, which as we have seen represents Israel, gives birth to the Male child, which represents the 144,000 coming out of, i.e. giving birth to, the male child. These 144,000 will be sealed after the church has been gathered and during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. The male child/144,000 will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years - Rev.12:5

 

[Jackson123]

According to Gen.37:9-10, the sun, moon and stars symbolically represent Israel.

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

As you can see from the scripture, Joseph had a dream with the sun being symbolic representing Jacob, with the moon representing his wife/wives and the eleven stars representing Jacob's eleven sons, with Joseph being number 12.

In Rev.12, God used the same symbols from Genesis to identify who the woman represents, she being clothed with the sun (Jacob), with the moon (wife) under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars (Jacob's twelve sons).

The woman as a whole then represents the nation Israel.



In Rev.12, the woman, which as we have seen represents Israel, gives birth to the Male child, which represents the 144,000 coming out of, i.e. giving birth to, the male child. These 144,000 will be sealed after the church has been gathered and during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. The male child/144,000 will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years - Rev.12:5

If I understand correctly, you believe woman is Israel,

You believe man child is 144000 jews believer and Will be born in the begining of tribulation, work for 31/2 year and Will be rapture.

So you believe there is at least 2 rapture, 1 church rapture, in the begining or before tribulation, 2 rapture of 144000 jews believer in the middle of tribulation.

Can you show me a verse that say 144000 jew Will rapture in the middle of tribulation?

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

You believe woman is nation of Israel, verse 6 say the woman f led into the wildernes, Would you like to explain to me how the whole nation of Israel include the president and all his cabinet fled to wildernes

Israel now have more than 8 million population, can 8 million people hide into wildernes? What part of wildernes they Will go?

 

[Ahwatukee]

If I understand correctly, you believe woman is Israel,

You believe man child is 144000 jews believer and Will be born in the begining of tribulation, work for 31/2 year and Will be rapture.

That is incorrect! The woman giving birth to the Male child, is not referring to a woman literally giving birth. Her giving birth is referring to the 144,000 who "come out" of Israel. The nation Israel did not and does not believe in Jesus as their Messiah. The reference to Israel giving birth is to that group of 144,000 Israelites who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. Unbelieving Israel will be giving birth to Israelites who believe. Do you understand now?

So you believe there is at least 2 rapture, 1 church rapture, in the beginning or before tribulation, 2 rapture of 144000 jews believer in the middle of tribulation.

That is correct. When the resurrection takes place, the dead in Christ will rise first, then immediately after, the living in Christ will be changed and caught up. In Rev.7:1-8 The 144,000 sealed and will be here during the first 3 1/2 years. In the middle of the seven years, the male child/144,000 will be caught up to God and His throne, just as the scripture states.

Can you show me a verse that say 144000 jew Will rapture in the middle of tribulation?

Just like there is no is no scripture that states when the resurrection takes place, likewise there is no verse that comes right out and says, "The Male child is a collective name representing the 144,00." It is something that is garnered from study and confirmed by the Holy Spirit. Two of the reasons are listed below:

1). Jesus does not fit the criteria of the Male Child

2). These (144,000) are those who will not have defiled themselves with women

Regarding number 1, the Male child is caught up to God and His throne out of the dragons reach. The word "harpazo" is defined as to "seize by force; snatch up, catch away." This is what takes place to the Male Child. In opposition, Jesus was crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended to the right hand of the Father. In short, Jesus was not caught up.

And regarding number 2, the context states that these 144,000 will have not defiled themselves with "women" which demonstrates that they are all males, ergo, Male Child. These are hidden truths meant to be found within God's.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Yes, the Male Chile/144,000 will rule with Christ with a rod of iron during the millennial kingdom, as will the church and the great tribulation saints who are resurrected when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The woman/Israel fleeing into the wilderness fount in Rev.12:6, 14, is synonymous with Matt.24:15-18 when Jesus tells Israel during that time, to flee out into the wilderness once the abomination has been set up, which causes the desolation/fleeing of Jerusalem.

You believe woman is nation of Israel, verse 6 say the woman f led into the wilderness, Would you like to explain to me how the whole nation of Israel include the president and all his cabinet fled to wilderness. Israel now have more than 8 million population, can 8 million people hide into wilderness? What part of wilderness they Will go?

I don't believe that all of Israel will survive, but only a remnant and that is who will be fleeing out into the wilderness to that place that God will have prepared for her. And my explanation for those who are cared for out in the wilderness, is because God is the One who will have a place prepared for them and will be caring for them. Regarding God's care for Israel, if you will notice in Rev.12:15-16, the dragon/Satan is said to spew water from his mouth to overtake the woman, which is symbolic representing Satan sending an army after Israel as she is fleeing. But God causes the earth to open up and swallows the army that the dragon/Satan sends after her. Since God will be the One protecting that remnant of Israel, then no one will be able to do anything against her.

The Woman = Israel

Male Child = 144,000 who come out of Israel as believers in Jesus

Dragon = Satan

Torrent of water = An army (for symbolic examples see - Ps.124:1, 144,7, Dan.11:10, Jer.46:7-8, 47:1-3)

 

[Jackson123]

That is incorrect! The woman giving birth to the Male child, is not referring to a woman literally giving birth. Her giving birth is referring to the 144,000 who "come out" of Israel. The nation Israel did not and does not believe in Jesus as their Messiah. The reference to Israel giving birth is to that group of 144,000 Israelites who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. Unbelieving Israel will be giving birth to Israelites who believe. Do you understand now?



That is correct. When the resurrection takes place, the dead in Christ will rise first, then immediately after, the living in Christ will be changed and caught up. In Rev.7:1-8 The 144,000 sealed and will be here during the first 3 1/2 years. In the middle of the seven years, the male child/144,000 will be caught up to God and His throne, just as the scripture states.



Just like there is no is no scripture that states when the resurrection takes place, likewise there is no verse that comes right out and says, "The Male child is a collective name representing the 144,00." It is something that is garnered from study and confirmed by the Holy Spirit. Two of the reasons are listed below:

1). Jesus does not fit the criteria of the Male Child

2). These (144,000) are those who will not have defiled themselves with women

Regarding number 1, the Male child is caught up to God and His throne out of the dragons reach. The word "harpazo" is defined as to "seize by force; snatch up, catch away." This is what takes place to the Male Child. In opposition, Jesus was crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended to the right hand of the Father. In short, Jesus was not caught up.

And regarding number 2, the context states that these 144,000 will have not defiled themselves with "women" which demonstrates that they are all males, ergo, Male Child. These are hidden truths meant to be found within God's.



Yes, the Male Chile/144,000 will rule with Christ with a rod of iron during the millennial kingdom, as will the church and the great tribulation saints who are resurrected when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.



The woman/Israel fleeing into the wilderness fount in Rev.12:6, 14, is synonymous with Matt.24:15-18 when Jesus tells Israel during that time, to flee out into the wilderness once the abomination has been set up, which causes the desolation/fleeing of Jerusalem.



I don't believe that all of Israel will survive, but only a remnant and that is who will be fleeing out into the wilderness to that place that God will have prepared for her. And my explanation for those who are cared for out in the wilderness, is because God is the One who will have a place prepared for them and will be caring for them. Regarding God's care for Israel, if you will notice in Rev.12:15-16, the dragon/Satan is said to spew water from his mouth to overtake the woman, which is symbolic representing Satan sending an army after Israel as she is fleeing. But God causes the earth to open up and swallows the army that the dragon/Satan sends after her. Since God will be the One protecting that remnant of Israel, then no one will be able to do anything against her.

The Woman = Israel

Male Child = 144,000 who come out of Israel as believers in Jesus

Dragon = Satan

Torrent of water = An army (for symbolic examples see - Ps.124:1, 144,7, Dan.11:10, Jer.46:7-8, 47:1-3)

Thanks,

If I understand correctly, you believe:

The 144000 rapture in the middle of tribulation, but you do not know a verse that SUPPORT why you believe It.

The nation of Israel flee to the wildernes in the middle of tribulation, and in the first part of tribulation, most of Israel die. Would you like to show me that in the first part of tribulation nation of Israel Being target

From what I understand the antichrist kill people that refuse to take mark of the beast. I do not know why the antichrist kill jews that take mark.

You believe only 144000 jews not take the mark don't you? It mean about 8 million jews take the mark. ( Israel population now about 8.45 million)

What make you believe when Israel flee only few left.

What is the reason non believer Israel flee, don't you believe only 144000 not take the mark. If one take the mark, they are not target for the beast anymore.

During first half of tribulation, a Lot of Israel

 

[garee]

According to Gen.37:9-10, the sun, moon and stars symbolically represent Israel.

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

As you can see from the scripture, Joseph had a dream with the sun being symbolic representing Jacob, with the moon representing his wife/wives and the eleven stars representing Jacob's eleven sons, with Joseph being number 12.

In Rev.12, God used the same symbols from Genesis to identify who the woman represents, she being clothed with the sun (Jacob), with the moon (wife) under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars (Jacob's twelve sons).

The woman as a whole then represents the nation Israel.



In Rev.12, the woman, which as we have seen represents Israel, gives birth to the Male child, which represents the 144,000 coming out of, i.e. giving birth to, the male child. These 144,000 will be sealed after the church has been gathered and during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. The male child/144,000 will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years - Rev.12:5

The church will not disappear for any time period .She will be with Christ right up till the last day, the day she receives her new incorruptible body which will be nether male nor female, Jew nor Gentile

Because as new creatures we no longer as of the first century reformation are to know each other after the flesh, as in no longer male or female Jew nor Gentile. (2 Corinthians 5) This is to include the Son of man .God is not a man as us he remains without beginning of days or end of Spirit life

The idea of making a outward Jew pertaining to the flesh one of the number 1444,000, a number that represent the whole bride of Christ the church is not a biblical teaching. If that was the case that it represented divorced Israel then the veil which they deny is rent as antichrists would have to be put back as if the reformation had not occurred and we were still waiting for the genealogy of the generation of Christ the spiritual seed to be completed.

The woman as a whole represent the bride of Christ the church .If Israel (not all Israel is Israel as the one bride ) it is not I respect to the flesh of a Jewish nation. But the new name God promised to name his bride named, Christian in Acts. She alone is reckoned as the mother of us all nations .

Note... (purple in parenthesis) my offering

Isaiah 62 For Zion's (Christ's bride the church) sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.(Christian )Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. (the new heavenly Jerusalem prepared as the bride of Christ, the church)For as a young man (Christ our husband) marrieth a virgin,(Like Timothy typified a chaste virgin ) so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride,(the church) so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

Josef was used to represent the surrogate mother of us all just as was Paul espousing Timothy as a chaste virgin bride in the parables below .

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Galatians 4:19 King James Version (KJV) My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Remember without parable Christ the anointing Holy Spirit as our teacher comforter and guide spoke not hiding the spiritual understanding from those who walk by sight looking to the temporal flesh and not by faith the eternal not seen God.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Thanks,

If I understand correctly, you believe:

The 144000 rapture in the middle of tribulation, but you do not know a verse that SUPPORT why you believe It.

Here it is again:

1). Jesus does not fit the criteria of the Male Child

2). These (144,000) are those who will not have defiled themselves with women

The nation of Israel flee to the wildernes in the middle of tribulation, and in the first part of tribulation, most of Israel die. Would you like to show me that in the first part of tribulation nation of Israel Being target.

I Never said that "in the first part of the tribulation, most of Israel dies." You are misquoting. What I did say is that I believe a remnant of Israel will flee out into the wilderness and be cared for by God.

From what I understand the antichrist kill people that refuse to take mark of the beast. I do not know why the antichrist kill Jews that take mark. You believe only 144000 Jews not take the mark don't you? It mean about 8 million jews take the mark. ( Israel population now about 8.45 million)

Why do you think that the antichrist establishes a covenant with them and then in the middle of the seven years he causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease and sets up that abomination, which causes them to flee? He wants to kill them because they are God's people. He wants to keep them from coming to Christ. Those Jews of Israel who flee obviously will not have taken the mark. Even though they do not believe in the new testament writings, they do have the following in their law regarding being mark:

"Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord." - Lev.19:28

Therefore, because of the law given, Israel will not receive that mark.

 

[KJV1611]

She gives

That woman is represented by Virgo--the virgin. She is clothed by the sun from mid-September to early October.

The gospel in the stars.