Revelation 20 from the amillennial view point

[Hevosmies]

Greetings brothers and sisters.

I have to say that I am very ignorant of what the Amillennials teach on Revelation 20, I have read an article about it from Ligoneir ministries and have listened to a couple sermons on it, but that is about it.

I have a ton of questions, mostly because im curious but also because I truly don't believe you can arrive to amillennialism by the "plain reading of the text" in Rev 20.

Okay guys, so tell me if I got this right:

The amill view is: Satan was bound when Jesus was on earth the first time, at the cross, the first resurrection is a "spiritual resurrection" of the saved in this gospel era, the second resurrection is the "general resurrection" at the end when Jesus returns. When ALL are resurrected, evil and righteous.

Now a few questions arise from this, ASSUMING my view is correct, correct me if im wrong:

1. Why is Peter saying the devil is walking around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour and world is full of wickedness and satan is deceiving the nations IF the devil is bound currently?
2. The first resurrection is spiritual, fine, however it says the first resurrection is for those who overcame the mark of the beast, and didn't bow to him, how is this possible because that would mean the mark has been in effect since the days of John?
3. We are told that saints will "rule the nations", if there is no millennium (literal one on earth) WHERE and HOW do people reign? I will cry if the answer is heaven, because its clear that the SAINTS are not running this world, righteousness is not present, its wickedness all over the world!
4. If someone dies in the Lord today, goes up to heaven to rule in the invisible millenium, yet Jesus returns tomorrow, how can it be said he reigned for a millennium instead of a day?
5. What about the Gog and Magog war? How can that happen in the amill view? The apostasy occurs and the church is persecuted? But it does say "camp of the saints" and "holy city" which we can only guess is Jerusalem, what other could it be?
6. Did you arrive to amillennialism by yourself, or did someone teach it to you?

That would be it for now, but I will say this: If there was no revelation 20, I would understand the amill view alot better, it works with the sheep and goats thing in Matthew 25 very well, another thing I like about it is the simplicity. But I am captive to the Scriptures, so most likely I will stay premill.

This is not a heated debate thread, rather I would enjoy if it could be a civil and calm exchange of information, I have no desire to "convert" you to premillennialism, I just want to know more about the amill view and I believe this is a quicker way than wasting money on an expensive book.

 

[abcdef]

Greetings brothers and sisters.

I have to say that I am very ignorant of what the Amillennials teach on Revelation 20, I have read an article about it from Ligoneir ministries and have listened to a couple sermons on it, but that is about it.

I have a ton of questions, mostly because im curious but also because I truly don't believe you can arrive to amillennialism by the "plain reading of the text" in Rev 20.

Greetings,

You won't find many amills around here, except me! Ha, ha. And I don't really agree with anybody completely, so this will be my opinion pretty much. I understand most other teachings, but don't ask me to defend what someone else has stated.

The Revelation is not one continual timeline. It repeats the same story over and over again from different points of subjects.

The story is centered on Israel and the restoration of Jerusalem after the times of the gentiles.

Then Jesus comes and this planet is destroyed by fire.

Okay guys, so tell me if I got this right:

The amill view is: Satan was bound when Jesus was on earth the first time, at the cross,

Satan was thrown down on the day of Pentecost. Rev 12:10 Now is come salvation,...., and the kingdom.

He was bound, that he could not destroy the people of Israel until Jerusalem was restored. Rev 12:16 swallowed up the flood.

the first resurrection is a "spiritual resurrection" of the saved in this gospel era, the second resurrection is the "general resurrection" at the end when Jesus returns. When ALL are resurrected, evil and righteous.

1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24,

This clearly states that there are only 2 resurrections, and the order of events surrounding them.

1. Jesus, The #1 resurrection, the first born from the dead. In scripture, this is always the first resurrection. This includes the souls from the OT. Moses, Noah, Adam, John the Baptist Eph 4:8-9. These souls live and reign for the time of the gospel kingdom/church on earth.

2. #2 resurrection, Those who are His at his coming. This is when Jesus comes for the kingdom. You and I and everyone since the #1 resurrection and this is the #2 resurrection/rapture. Second coming for salvation Heb 9:28.

3. Then comes the end when death is destroyed Rev 20:14-15. The last enemy.

4. The kingdom/church is delivered up to the Father.

5. God the Father is All in All.

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In the mill chapter, The #1 resur. is Jesus. The second resurrection is coming, when the gentile nations attack Jerusalem that is restored to Israel.

Those who are beheaded and reign refer to John the Baptist who was beheaded by the iron Roman Empire beast.

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[abcdef]

Greetings brothers and sisters.


Now a few questions arise from this, ASSUMING my view is correct, correct me if im wrong:

1. Why is Peter saying the devil is walking around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour and world is full of wickedness and satan is deceiving the nations IF the devil is bound currently?

Satan was thrown down and banned from heaven on the day of Pentecost.

He is only bound, that he cannot destroy Israel, by deceiving the (gentile) nations, until after Israel is restored to Jerusalem at the end of the times of the gentiles (ToG's).

He can deceive the nations to sin, only he cannot deceive them into surrounding Jerusalem until it is restored to Israel's control.

2. The first resurrection is spiritual, fine, however it says the first resurrection is for those who overcame the mark of the beast, and didn't bow to him, how is this possible because that would mean the mark has been in effect since the days of John?

Yes, the beast is Rome. Rome invaded Israel in 63 BC. That is when the mark of the Roman iron beast started. It continues today in the image beast of the RCC.

3. We are told that saints will "rule the nations", if there is no millennium (literal one on earth) WHERE and HOW do people reign? I will cry if the answer is heaven, because its clear that the SAINTS are not running this world, righteousness is not present, its wickedness all over the world!

The words of John the Baptist and the OT saints rule our lives in the kingdom today, "Behold the Lamb of God."

The rest of the world is not having the Bible saints reign in their hearts.

4. If someone dies in the Lord today, goes up to heaven to rule in the invisible millenium, yet Jesus returns tomorrow, how can it be said he reigned for a millennium instead of a day?

Those who reign are from the #1 resurrection. We have their words in the Bible.

5. What about the Gog and Magog war? How can that happen in the amill view? The apostasy occurs and the church is persecuted? But it does say "camp of the saints" and "holy city" which we can only guess is Jerusalem, what other could it be?

The Magog war is future, it could start tomorrow, but it happens after Jerusalem is restored to Israel (1967).

6. Did you arrive to amillennialism by yourself, or did someone teach it to you?

My conclusion is a result of studying 1 Cor 15:23-28. There are only 2 resurrections. Not 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 or more.

That would be it for now, but I will say this: If there was no revelation 20, I would understand the amill view alot better, it works with the sheep and goats thing in Matthew 25 very well, another thing I like about it is the simplicity. But I am captive to the Scriptures, so most likely I will stay premill.

We are in the mill now. The number is not literal. The blessings that are associated with the mill are for those in the gospel kingdom/church who enjoy a loving relationship with God and their follow souls.

This is not a heated debate thread, rather I would enjoy if it could be a civil and calm exchange of information, I have no desire to "convert" you to premillennialism, I just want to know more about the amill view and I believe this is a quicker way than wasting money on an expensive book.

I did not get into to much detail, but I hope this helps.

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[Locutus]

I did not get into to much detail

And all the people said Amen

 

[iamsoandso]

And all the people said Amen View attachment 188481

lol, well they need to begin somewhere right?...

 

[Locutus]

I just want to know more about the amill view and I believe this is a quicker way than wasting money on an expensive book.

Nothing wrong in investing money in books - study and attempt to "refute" it with scripture - I spent almost 2 years of intense study investigating the errors in dispensationalism using Dwight Pentecost's "Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology".

It was worth the $40 to do so.

If yer gonna buy a book on a particular eschatology buy a book written by the "engineer" not the "oil rags"

 

[iamsoandso]

Bibles cheaper though, I hung out with the Jesus People from the summer of love till now and just read it,,,

 

[iamsoandso]

you got to get to the root to see what is correct or not in what the modern day people see,,,

 

[Locutus]

I hung out with the Jesus People from the summer of love till now and just read it,,,

Was that at Camp Soandso?

 

[iamsoandso]

Was that at Camp Soandso?

View attachment 188487

45:52 minutes later you ask after your advice to buy a book?

 

[Locutus]

I wus gonna wait til 46 mins but I thought you might have logged out by then

 

[iamsoandso]

I wus gonna wait til 46 mins but I thought you might have logged out by then View attachment 188488

psbbbttttt, I give you one of the early films of Hal Lindsey and you sleep through it,,,maybe I should log out again...

 

[garee]

1. Why is Peter saying the devil is walking around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour and world is full of wickedness and satan is deceiving the nations IF the devil is bound currently?

It would depend on how the bible defines to be bound. To be restrained is to be bound . It does not mean immovable.

Immovable will be on the last day when that lying spirit and the second death go up in smoke never to rise again

And now, lo, I -- bound in the Spirit -- go on to Jerusalem, the things that shall befall me in it not knowing, Acts 20

and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.' Mathew 16:19

Its the gospel that binds and loosens .The gospel binds Satan from fully deceiving the nations.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The word it above represents the faith of God as the work of God . It binds Satan as a bottomless pit .In that way God's love has no end.

 

[garee]

2. The first resurrection is spiritual, fine, however it says the first resurrection is for those who overcame the mark of the beast, and didn't bow to him, how is this possible because that would mean the mark has been in effect since the days of John?

Jesus informs us its an evil generation as the generation of natural unconverted man that seeks after literal signs and wonders. The sign of Jonas the last has already been fulfilled at the cross

The mark is not a literal mark. We walk by faith the eternal not seen not by sight the tempol . (2 Corinthians 4:18)

The Mark is in reference to the unconverted, the "mark of Cain" .No faith, no sabbath rest. But rather his heart remained hard all the days of his life.

The buying is in respect to spiritual truth hidden in the parables. Esau a marked man (no faith) sold his birth rite for a bowl of soup seeing no advantage in the things not seen.

The gospel has nothing to do with the technological electronic things of this world .Like smart phones, or computer chips. If it did I would join the Amish group and trade in my car for a horse.

The promise of the first resurrection

Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,Ezekiel 37:13

The fulfillment

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

 

[garee]

3. We are told that saints will "rule the nations", if there is no millennium (literal one on earth) WHERE and HOW do people reign? I will cry if the answer is heaven, because its clear that the SAINTS are not running this world, righteousness is not present, its wickedness all over the world!

The kingdom of God is not of this world.The garden of Eden temporally typified the kingdom .It will never be of this corrupted world. But new just as the new creatures neither male not female Jew nor Gentile

Believers who are reigning with Christ are typified as a kingdom of priest sent from a foreign land the new heavenly Jerusalem, as ambassadors for Christ, our King of kings holding out the gospel of Christ. It loosens those called to salvation who are bound by the father of lies . the same binds him from having full control .

 

[garee]

4. If someone dies in the Lord today, goes up to heaven to rule in the invisible millenium, yet Jesus returns tomorrow, how can it be said he reigned for a millennium instead of a day?

The word thousand represents a unknow, or not revealed as to whatever is in view to include when used of time. A day is as if it was a thousand years to God. He will come as a thief in the night on the last day

You could say Abel is reigning with Christ by faith or any old testemnt saint in who we have witness of as part of the gospel (Hebrew 11).

The voice of Abel's blood as a witness of the gospel still cries out:.... "have the faith of God". We walk by that faith, as God's witness

And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.Genesis 4:10

 

[Hevosmies]

garee thanks for your answers.

Can you tell me how does amillennialism deal with Ezekiel 34:24-25 and other verses that talk about king David ruling in Israel, and the regathering of Israel verses?
Seems like a milllenium is the only place these can be fulfilled. Even books outside of the bible speak of the messianic period before eternity like the book of enoch (post-trib book btw)

 

[MattforJesus]

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

The battle of Armageddon when all the nations go against Israel when they follow the man of sin, New Age Christ, and God defeats the world, and saves Israel.

It is the time for God to end this sin business on earth.

Some people say that this applies to the Roman Empire going against them in the first century to justify their beliefs, but the Bible says all nations, the whole earth, but then they will say it is only the then known world back then, but not even that makes sense, for it was the Roman Empire that went against them, not the Arab nations that was known, not Asia that was known, not Egypt, and Africa that was known.

Only the Roman Empire went against them, and also God allowed the Roman Empire to go against Jerusalem, Jews, and scatter them, but in this war God defeats them.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Nobody will acknowledge any god, or religious figure, but only the LORD, and the people that God spared that fought against Israel have to go to Jerusalem to worship the LORD.

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

There will be peace for 1000 years where people will not fight with people, and animals will not eat animals, and animals and people will get along.

And the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD.

Which we know has never happened in the past, for at no time in the past did the people of the world only acknowledge the LORD, and only His ways were observed.

Also Jesus has been ruling ever since He resurrected to heaven, which Jesus said all power has been given unto Me in heaven and earth, so He has been ruling for about 2000 years, so why do they say 1000 years, for was He not ruling the other 1000 years.

There will be a literal 1000 years reign of Christ on earth.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Jer 46:27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

God is going to restore the kingdom on earth to Israel in the future, and they will know the LORD their God from that time forward, and He will not hide His face from them again, which means they will always be in the truth from that time forward.

So if they say this is in the past, it is not true, for if it was in the past Israel would be in the truth today, but they are not.

And if they say it is the Babylonian captivity, Israel would of been in the truth from that point forward and would of never rejected Jesus.

The millennial reign is about restoring the kingdom on earth to the Jews, Israel, as well as Jesus being the perfect King on earth fulfilling the law.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Jesus has to fulfill the law, and all the positions of people associated with the operation of Israel, which He is the perfect King, the perfect High Priest, the perfect Prophet, the perfect Saint, the perfect sacrifice, the perfect temple, and whatever He had to fulfill.

But Jesus did not fulfill the role of perfect King yet which must be done on earth, for He came as a servant and not a King to rule.

And when He has fulfilled the role of perfect King on earth then heaven and earth shall pass away, and the saints will be at the New Jerusalem, the new heaven, and earth, the place that Jesus went away to prepare for the saints.

There will be a literal reign of Jesus on earth in the future, when the kingdom on earth is restored to the Jews, and Jesus and the saints rule over the heathen that God spared at the battle of Armageddon.

The devil will be bound during the 1000 years and there will be peace, but then loosed at the end of that time and will stir up the heathen and they will go against the saints and God will rain fire on them and devour them for they still have punishment coming for following the beast, but God postponed it until the end of the millennial reign.

 

[Locutus]

 

[iamsoandso]

lol,I know,,,"how dare them spiritualize it different from us right?", rolly eyes from me too...