What laws given in the OT should be tossed out?
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Last time I am going to try to explain this, lets go real slow so maybe you get it this time. Man kind is incapable that means we can not by our own power live out the law with out transgression. transgression of the law is sin, every one us that live in this word has sin in their life. Even you and I.
As I hsve said many times, the Law HAS NEVER and CAN NEVER bring about salvation, that is and ALWAYS has been by faith. You not find once that I said, implyed, or hinted any other way. Yet you seem to wish that I had, sorry never did, never will. Even Abraham was counted as righteous do his FAITH, and not by WORKS, I though I made that clear already.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
As it seems you read into what I say what you wish to find, I have no dough you will not understand any of this. So let me treat you like a new member of faith.
1 Faith on it's own is great. Yet it on it's own with out WORKS is dead.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
The works here are in fact the righteous work of the a righteous Law. You see even people without faith, can do the right thing. Funny how even Satan has faith that the Word is true, yet that faith doesn't bring him salvation. Why? He doesn't know love. As made clear from scripture, if a person loves HaShem, they keep His commandments. See my last post for just some of the passages backing this.
Your understanding of what this debate is about must have change at some point, and you failed to let it be known. As I have held on to the FACT that it was weather the Law was valid. Once more, you will not find in any of post, no matter where you look, that I ever said keeping the law was the way to salvation. I have always maintained that salvation comes by FAITH first, FOLLOWED BY OBEDIENCE. To say I ever made any other claim would be a flat out LIE. Even the questions I ask, were to show that the Law is VALID, not that it can bring salvation. Your answers show that even you the Law is valid.
I would think that if you are going to enter into a debate with someone, you first be willing to stay with the facts of what they say, and not place words, or meanings that were never implied by them at their feet. Though I must say I have came to understand that is how many that call them self a follower of the faith work now. If they can't get others to follow their way of thinking, then turn it around some how to make them it look like they are saying something they really are not.
Now as for the Sabbath. Once a person knows the truth, they are them boned by that truth. As the Word has made clear from the first mention of a day 7, it was blessed by HaShem, NOT MAN, and made Holy by HaShem not MAN. The keeping of Sabbath isn't carnal at all, it is vary spiritual. It is a rest from the carnal world, when a person takes that 24 hours and spends it with HaShem, in both worship, and a sount study of His Word in the search for it's truths.
So in closing, you by your answers of YES acknowladged the Law is valid. If it weren't you have said no to the questions I ask. You then tried to make seem that I was all about being saved by the keeping of Torah, and no faith needed. Sorry if I am wrong in what I see here, though you have made it clear you have condemed me already. Not that action of a man I once though of as having integrity.
As I hsve said many times, the Law HAS NEVER and CAN NEVER bring about salvation, that is and ALWAYS has been by faith. You not find once that I said, implyed, or hinted any other way. Yet you seem to wish that I had, sorry never did, never will. Even Abraham was counted as righteous do his FAITH, and not by WORKS, I though I made that clear already.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
As it seems you read into what I say what you wish to find, I have no dough you will not understand any of this. So let me treat you like a new member of faith.
1 Faith on it's own is great. Yet it on it's own with out WORKS is dead.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
The works here are in fact the righteous work of the a righteous Law. You see even people without faith, can do the right thing. Funny how even Satan has faith that the Word is true, yet that faith doesn't bring him salvation. Why? He doesn't know love. As made clear from scripture, if a person loves HaShem, they keep His commandments. See my last post for just some of the passages backing this.
Your understanding of what this debate is about must have change at some point, and you failed to let it be known. As I have held on to the FACT that it was weather the Law was valid. Once more, you will not find in any of post, no matter where you look, that I ever said keeping the law was the way to salvation. I have always maintained that salvation comes by FAITH first, FOLLOWED BY OBEDIENCE. To say I ever made any other claim would be a flat out LIE. Even the questions I ask, were to show that the Law is VALID, not that it can bring salvation. Your answers show that even you the Law is valid.
I would think that if you are going to enter into a debate with someone, you first be willing to stay with the facts of what they say, and not place words, or meanings that were never implied by them at their feet. Though I must say I have came to understand that is how many that call them self a follower of the faith work now. If they can't get others to follow their way of thinking, then turn it around some how to make them it look like they are saying something they really are not.
Now as for the Sabbath. Once a person knows the truth, they are them boned by that truth. As the Word has made clear from the first mention of a day 7, it was blessed by HaShem, NOT MAN, and made Holy by HaShem not MAN. The keeping of Sabbath isn't carnal at all, it is vary spiritual. It is a rest from the carnal world, when a person takes that 24 hours and spends it with HaShem, in both worship, and a sount study of His Word in the search for it's truths.
So in closing, you by your answers of YES acknowladged the Law is valid. If it weren't you have said no to the questions I ask. You then tried to make seem that I was all about being saved by the keeping of Torah, and no faith needed. Sorry if I am wrong in what I see here, though you have made it clear you have condemed me already. Not that action of a man I once though of as having integrity.
As for the passage from Mat 15. Though it seems clear you wish to insult my intelligence, I will still give a reply. This come from my 12 years getting a PHD in Biblical theology just so you know. Yeshua was letting it be known that the teachings of the religious leaders of that time were nothing more than the teachings they wanted. Much as many today teach what they have been told, with out any true study of their own to find the truth of Scripture. In so doing they pass down what man thinks, and hold no understanding of the true teachings of Scripture. I once made a play on that word to make a point, think I will once more. Scriptrue. Scripture is the only Script you find to always be true. To rightly divide it, one must first make sure that their division in way places one part in contrast with another. In other words, be it the OT, or the NT, it must remain in complete harmony with the other.
I thank you now for your insults, the lovly way you twist the words of others, and for your attempts at belittlement. I found a lot of humor in them.
I thank you now for your insults, the lovly way you twist the words of others, and for your attempts at belittlement. I found a lot of humor in them.
Law obedience in Luke 18:9-14 has an exaggerated picture of the obedience to the Law of Moses that we are not to follow. Paul explains the correct law well in the book of Romans.
In Luke the Pharisee is publically strutting to show his praying. We are to obey law, but not on our own with our own definition of the law. Instead, we are to die to sin with Christ and be made alive in Him. We obey through the spirit of the Lord, not by our own self righteousness and wisdom.
We can find scripture telling us the law has been tossed out, but when we obey the Lord through the spirit, we also obey all that the Lord wrote for us in the law of Moses.
In Luke the Pharisee is publically strutting to show his praying. We are to obey law, but not on our own with our own definition of the law. Instead, we are to die to sin with Christ and be made alive in Him. We obey through the spirit of the Lord, not by our own self righteousness and wisdom.
We can find scripture telling us the law has been tossed out, but when we obey the Lord through the spirit, we also obey all that the Lord wrote for us in the law of Moses.
I do not look that way friend. For example
The Beginning
1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
This is information not a law. If you read news paper, there is tsunami hit the city of Paul, is that a law?
This is the definition of law.
Definition of Law (Entry 1 of 6)
1a(1) : a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed (see PRESCRIBE sense 1a) or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority
(2) : the whole body of such customs, practices, or rules
The courts exist to uphold, interpret, and apply the law.
(3) : COMMON LAW
b(1) : the control brought about by the existence or enforcement of such law
preserved law and order in the town
(2) : the action of laws considered as a means of redressing wrongs
also : LITIGATION
developed the habit of going to law over the slightest provocation
—H. A. Overstreet
The Beginning
1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
This is information not a law. If you read news paper, there is tsunami hit the city of Paul, is that a law?
This is the definition of law.
Definition of Law (Entry 1 of 6)
1a(1) : a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed (see PRESCRIBE sense 1a) or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority
(2) : the whole body of such customs, practices, or rules
The courts exist to uphold, interpret, and apply the law.
(3) : COMMON LAW
b(1) : the control brought about by the existence or enforcement of such law
preserved law and order in the town
(2) : the action of laws considered as a means of redressing wrongs
also : LITIGATION
developed the habit of going to law over the slightest provocation
—H. A. Overstreet
Has anyone addressed the contrasts of Jesus confronting the differences between the old and new? Consider the adulterers who were caught in the act and were brought to Jesus. Did he enforce the law of Moses or did He teach an opposite lesson? If Jesus had been the originator of the punishment for this offence,He could have said kill them with th e stones you have. Instead Jesus offers them the loving alternative. Why would you want to kill a person for sinning when you are no better than this yourself. This is how Jesus is teaching us that He is not the author of destruction as Moses taught humanity to be. The list of opposites is so long it would take another book to be written to contain them all.
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Most of the time when we think of the law of Moses we think of the ten commandments. These were mentioned by Paul in 2nd Cor.7 as administration of death. He also called them the administration of condemnation in verse 9. How is this for honoring the most sacred rules of the old testament. By comparison, these laws are incomplete when trying to rules people with love. Jesus have given us the final laws which fulfills and finishes any requirements with which we should follow. Love God with all of your hearts and love your neighbor the same way. Love fulfills the law and is not dependent on any OF scriptures. We do not need to fear a God of wrath of worry about old testament threats. Love is how we rightly decide the Word of truth. Jesus has never been any different from the beginning. He tells us who our adversary is, and who seeks to hurt us if we sin. God has never been the one to kill humanity or tell us to kill each other. It's that God can't protect us from the adversary if we don't live in love.
We as Christians have been compromising our understanding of God all along by mixing portions of the old with the new and tremendously watering down the content. Take fighting for example. Everyone knows that Moses commanded 10%. But consider how the widow that have a few pennies have all she had to the church. Does this mean that Jesus wants us to tithe 100%. Well yes He does, only He doesn't care about the money. He wants 100% of your heart. Jesus never asked for money for His church because His is built in our hearts, not with building materials. The early Mosaic church took offense at this since they could not live off of the donations which would pay for all of the material expenses. Our current church system is so compromised, it amazes me when I meet the real Christians who have realized the liberty with which Paul so fervently expressed. Love fills in the gaps that the old law could not provide. Love will determine which portions of our Bibles we glean our truth. Love will let us discern the true heart of God as Jesus taught.
I think we need the OT scriptures about the law. They explain how God thinks of how we are to express God's love.
With our Greek kind of minds it is hard for us to understand some of the death penalties. We are not taking into consideration how they were carried out and all the OT requirements for this penalty. When we read OT scripture, we first need to study the times and culture of what was thought and happening in the world they were put in. When they say death is to be given, it does mean that God considered obeying that law very serious.
If we love we do not steal from people we love, if we love the Lord we respect the times He set aside for us, if we love our neighbor we do not speak ill of him, etc.
With our Greek kind of minds it is hard for us to understand some of the death penalties. We are not taking into consideration how they were carried out and all the OT requirements for this penalty. When we read OT scripture, we first need to study the times and culture of what was thought and happening in the world they were put in. When they say death is to be given, it does mean that God considered obeying that law very serious.
If we love we do not steal from people we love, if we love the Lord we respect the times He set aside for us, if we love our neighbor we do not speak ill of him, etc.
Let's consider the Law for what it has become to those who have Jesus' righteousness by faith. In the New Covenant, the requirement for obedience has been changed to a new standard; the law of the Spirit of life. Jesus, our eternal High Priest has entered into heaven on our behalf and the Father has sent the Spirit to us, who reproves mankind for sin, for righteousness, and for judgment and who uses scripture to write the Lord's laws and commandments into our hearts and minds. We are, by the Spirit's guidance, to strive at making our practical righteousness to reflect our imputed righteousness. So, for us, the OT's letter of the law has now become a simple guideline for what is sin. But even so, in the NT, the Holy Spirit leads us to follow the law of the Spirit of life, a standard of obedience that reflects Jesus' obedience; where the Lord looks to the heart and its intent and not just in our outward behavior and where, whatever is not of faith, is sin. That the New Covenant has no curse for sin, allows us, at any time, to forget those things that are past and press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."
Rom 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Heb 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
Jn 16:8 "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment."
Heb 12:11 "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."
Jn 16:3 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
Phil 3:13, 14 "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
Heb 10:6 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them."
Rom 14:23 "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatever is not of faith, is sin."
Rom 7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."
Rom 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Heb 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
Jn 16:8 "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment."
Heb 12:11 "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."
Jn 16:3 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
Phil 3:13, 14 "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
Heb 10:6 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them."
Rom 14:23 "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatever is not of faith, is sin."
gif posts: That the New Covenant has no curse for sin, allows us, at any time, to forget those things that are past and press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
There is truth in what you post but in our forgetting all God the Father tells us with our desire to accept what we say is the new covenant, we are often tossing out basic knowledge of God. God the Father was there at creation, the first five books of scripture gives us basic knowledge of the Father that is spelled out in Psalms. So much of what we read in the letters of the NT is copies of OT scripture for the NT built on the foundation of the OT.
Because the lives of the people of the OT were lived six thousand years ago we have lost knowledge of the life and times of those people so we often do not understand what scripture is telling us. That is why the discovery of the deep sea caves is so important to us for with language understanding they bring we can bridge the gap and understand. To understand is to understand God.
We would not say to forget all the new covenant knowledge. In the same way we should not say forget all the OT gives us.
There is truth in what you post but in our forgetting all God the Father tells us with our desire to accept what we say is the new covenant, we are often tossing out basic knowledge of God. God the Father was there at creation, the first five books of scripture gives us basic knowledge of the Father that is spelled out in Psalms. So much of what we read in the letters of the NT is copies of OT scripture for the NT built on the foundation of the OT.
Because the lives of the people of the OT were lived six thousand years ago we have lost knowledge of the life and times of those people so we often do not understand what scripture is telling us. That is why the discovery of the deep sea caves is so important to us for with language understanding they bring we can bridge the gap and understand. To understand is to understand God.
We would not say to forget all the new covenant knowledge. In the same way we should not say forget all the OT gives us.
You can certainly gain wisdom in some parts of the old. Yet, we could never have expected the old test lament methods as being consistent with the loving teachings of Jesus. This is where the difficulties li e when trying to determine the true authorship of God in the old. Jesus specifically teach that love is the work of the spirit. Love works no I'll to his neighbor. This is an absolute from God to us through the voice of Jesus. This would not have been any different in the OT. Jesus would never have asked anyone in history to kill others for Him and then change the law later to forgiving enemies instead. Remember 2nd Cor.4-4. The God of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers. 2nd Cor. 3-14, Moses was blinded by a veil and could not know the correct interpretations of the teachings according to Jesus. Paul repeated this twice to make this perfectly clear. Commanding men to kill each other in God's name is clearly NOT a Christian principle.
When men fail to accept the principles of love in their life, this opens the door for evil retaliation. This have the devil time to corrupt the simple things of God. It's great to reflect on history and see just how our old testament brothers were caught up in sin and misbelief. We actually believe that Jesus have those death commands to Moses only to correct those things when He arrived in earth. There are reasons why Paul corrected every one of the old testament commands and made opposite ever one. Here is one. Men were commanded to build gold adorned temples in old times. Paul tells us that God does not dwell in temples made with hands. You will find by careful comparison that all of the IT commands were countered by loving examples. God does not change His standards through history. Mankind has not understood the truth of Christ until He came to earth. That is the mystery of Christ and did not arrive until He told us. Jesus is the truth and needed to be shared to correct the mistakes in the old. Hebrews 8-7, For if the first had been faultless there would have been no need for the second. Hebrews 8-13, That which is old does vanish away. 7-22, Jesus for a surety has made a better testament. We can not mix old testament retaliation with the teachings of forgiveness which Jesus professes. This is the difference between justice and grace. justice is an eye for an eye, grace is unwarranted forgiveness for sin. Jesus never had asked us to retaliate against a neighbor or an enemy as the old testament law had been enforced by Moses. This may be difficult for most to accept since we are told that it is God who has commanded the thing of Moses. Jesus tells us that God is love. There is NO violence in love. Jesus countered His adversaries every time by giving His accusers a loving answer to a demanding question. If God had wanted Mosaic answers to be the standard, He would have had Jesus just confirm the words of Moses. 2nd Timothy 2-15, rightly DIVIDE the Word of truth. Separate the loving commands from the evil ones. God is love!
I know that most of you have never attempted a scripture by scripture comparison like this so view these two. Moses commands in Leviticus 20 -10 that an adulterer should be put to death. Jesus says in John 8-7, He who is without sin should cast a stone. Now Jesus is completely aware of what Moses commanded yet He countered that with words coming from God. We should all know that His commands are solid and are greater than anything written prior. That is what makes the new testament superior. There is only one great truth and it can always be determined by love.
The law of the Spirit of life's standard is that to hate is to be a murderer. There is a difference between some sins; 1 Jn 5:16, 17 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin and there is a sin not unto death."
So, even in the NT we are unable to sin any old sin we might want with impunity, for there are some sins that are "unto death." Other sins are taken care of by a prayer for life by a brother or maybe even the sinner himself. On a side note: Consider how important it is for us to remember to pray for one another.
So, even in the NT we are unable to sin any old sin we might want with impunity, for there are some sins that are "unto death." Other sins are taken care of by a prayer for life by a brother or maybe even the sinner himself. On a side note: Consider how important it is for us to remember to pray for one another.