Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines
- Thread starter delirious
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Of course we are in the new heavens and earth - that's the problem with you literalists.
This is when the "heavens and earth" were created:
Isa 51:16 And I put My words in thy mouth, And with the shadow of My hand have covered thee, To plant the heavens, and to found earth, And to say to Zion, 'My people art thou.'
The above "heavens and earth" were destroyed in the destruction wrought on Jerusalem when the whore and her city was judged and John sees the "new heaven and earth"
2 Pet 3:12 waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day of God, by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements with burning heat shall melt;
In the above Peter's "elements" (Greek - stoiceia) are the teachings composed in/of the "heavens" - the words given in Isa 51:16
See the usage of stoiceia in the other places it is used in the NT
(Gal 4:3 so also we, when we were babes, under the elements of the world were in servitude,
Gal 4:9 and now, having known God -- and rather being known by God -- how turn ye again unto the weak and poor elements to which anew ye desire to be in servitude?
Col 2:8 See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ.
Col 2:20 If, then, ye did die with the Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances?
Heb 5:12 for even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again ye have need that one teach you what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God, and ye have become having need of milk, and not of strong food.
This is when the "heavens and earth" were created:
Isa 51:16 And I put My words in thy mouth, And with the shadow of My hand have covered thee, To plant the heavens, and to found earth, And to say to Zion, 'My people art thou.'
The above "heavens and earth" were destroyed in the destruction wrought on Jerusalem when the whore and her city was judged and John sees the "new heaven and earth"
2 Pet 3:12 waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day of God, by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements with burning heat shall melt;
In the above Peter's "elements" (Greek - stoiceia) are the teachings composed in/of the "heavens" - the words given in Isa 51:16
See the usage of stoiceia in the other places it is used in the NT
(Gal 4:3 so also we, when we were babes, under the elements of the world were in servitude,
Gal 4:9 and now, having known God -- and rather being known by God -- how turn ye again unto the weak and poor elements to which anew ye desire to be in servitude?
Col 2:8 See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ.
Col 2:20 If, then, ye did die with the Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances?
Heb 5:12 for even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again ye have need that one teach you what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God, and ye have become having need of milk, and not of strong food.
Let me have a dig around and see what I can come up with on Joel SoBro. I'm sure the googley spirit will lead me in all things FP
I still don't see how Ecc 1:9 has any bearing on eschatology though - just giving me a couple of NT verses does not explain were you are "heading" so to speak.
You rarely explain what yer really thinking unfortunately.
I still don't see how Ecc 1:9 has any bearing on eschatology though - just giving me a couple of NT verses does not explain were you are "heading" so to speak.
You rarely explain what yer really thinking unfortunately.
In your eschatology he returned in ad70 from the heavens that must receive him until the last enemy,death is defeated,until the restoration of all things is that not the thing that was? You say this is all finished when Jesus said it was finished(cross) but then as if some forty years later when you think the last enemy,death is defeated the heavens where he is received until the restoration of all things no longer exist.
Now if there is the new heaven and earth present tense now in your eschatology where are those of the second Resurrection of the dead? Why is it that the millennial kingdom lasted only forty years? Now we have those of the first Resurrection whom the second death hath no part and those resurrected in the second?
-
1
- Show all
So according to the timeline you are giving me, which is consistent with the full-preterist timeline, what happened at the Great White Throne judgment?
According to Rev 20: 13-15, "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
So "death" was thrown into the lake of fire just like all unbelievers at that time. Rev 21: 4 confirms this when it says there is no more death, sorrow or crying.
But we still have all those things today. Once again, you did not address the texts that appear to show that full-preterism is false.
If the texts I submitted are not valid please explain why. The fact that you keep refusing to answer them makes it appear that you have no answer. If that is the case, why do you still believe in full-preterism when I have provided texts that refute it?
Why is there still death? Why is there still sorrow? Why is there still crying? Why do the former things still come to mind? Where is the New Jerusalem? It says it comes down from heaven. Why has no one found it in almost 2,000 years? What happens to everyone born after A.D. 70? Why is 3 Muskeeters better than Snickers? Your system is silly my friend.
According to Rev 20: 13-15, "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
So "death" was thrown into the lake of fire just like all unbelievers at that time. Rev 21: 4 confirms this when it says there is no more death, sorrow or crying.
But we still have all those things today. Once again, you did not address the texts that appear to show that full-preterism is false.
If the texts I submitted are not valid please explain why. The fact that you keep refusing to answer them makes it appear that you have no answer. If that is the case, why do you still believe in full-preterism when I have provided texts that refute it?
Why is there still death? Why is there still sorrow? Why is there still crying? Why do the former things still come to mind? Where is the New Jerusalem? It says it comes down from heaven. Why has no one found it in almost 2,000 years? What happens to everyone born after A.D. 70? Why is 3 Muskeeters better than Snickers? Your system is silly my friend.
Been watching the telly BroSo - not done any googling yet.
I think it's important that in Joel 2 "the at hand" is not to be included with what Joel states and which Peter quotes in Acts:
Joel 2:28 And it hath come to pass afterwards, I do pour out My Spirit on all flesh, And prophesied have your sons and your daughters, Your old men do dream dreams, Your young men do see visions.
Can you give me any reason to include 2:1 with the above - I think we've been here before on this.
The "at hand" portion is well in the past. If Peter is claiming fulfillment of 2:28 at Pentecost what reason would we have to believe the previous "stuff" has not come to pass?
It's getting late - I'll wish you a nitey nite bud.
I think it's important that in Joel 2 "the at hand" is not to be included with what Joel states and which Peter quotes in Acts:
Joel 2:28 And it hath come to pass afterwards, I do pour out My Spirit on all flesh, And prophesied have your sons and your daughters, Your old men do dream dreams, Your young men do see visions.
Can you give me any reason to include 2:1 with the above - I think we've been here before on this.
The "at hand" portion is well in the past. If Peter is claiming fulfillment of 2:28 at Pentecost what reason would we have to believe the previous "stuff" has not come to pass?
It's getting late - I'll wish you a nitey nite bud.
I know you said you were going to bed but I wanted to give you a few more things to consider from Scripture when you get up.
The Lord's return will be a VISIBLE coming. Not the spiritualized one of A.D. 70.
Acts 1: 11, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
The resurrection is literal and BODILY. Not the spiritualized one of A.D. 70.
Acts 23: 8, "For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection—and no angel or spirit" Notice how the "spirit" is contrasted with the "resurrection". It is bodily.
The entire chapter of 1 corinthians 15 was written by Paul to combat the heresy of no bodily resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15: 12-13, "Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen." How did God raise Christ? Bodily. Paul in these verses can only be talking about a bodily resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15: 20,23, "But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep." "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming." Christ was raised bodily. The resurrection of those at His coming can only be bodily from these verses.
Did the "end of the world" really happen in A.D. 70 and then the new heavens and earth began as the full-preterist claims?
Matthew 28: 18-20, And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
So according to the last verse the "great commission" ended in A.D. 70?
And what about Matthew 13: 39-40, "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age."
All the wicked were burned up with the destruction of Judaism?
I have tried to give you plenty of Scripture to prove full-preterism is false. If you want to continue to believe it, I tried my best to dissuade you from the Scriptures.
God bless.
The Lord's return will be a VISIBLE coming. Not the spiritualized one of A.D. 70.
Acts 1: 11, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
The resurrection is literal and BODILY. Not the spiritualized one of A.D. 70.
Acts 23: 8, "For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection—and no angel or spirit" Notice how the "spirit" is contrasted with the "resurrection". It is bodily.
The entire chapter of 1 corinthians 15 was written by Paul to combat the heresy of no bodily resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15: 12-13, "Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen." How did God raise Christ? Bodily. Paul in these verses can only be talking about a bodily resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15: 20,23, "But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep." "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming." Christ was raised bodily. The resurrection of those at His coming can only be bodily from these verses.
Did the "end of the world" really happen in A.D. 70 and then the new heavens and earth began as the full-preterist claims?
Matthew 28: 18-20, And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
So according to the last verse the "great commission" ended in A.D. 70?
And what about Matthew 13: 39-40, "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age."
All the wicked were burned up with the destruction of Judaism?
I have tried to give you plenty of Scripture to prove full-preterism is false. If you want to continue to believe it, I tried my best to dissuade you from the Scriptures.
God bless.
-
1
- Show all
Ok - just did a quick googley spirit search - this is from an FP site:
In Joel chapters 2-3, it is a prediction of the Last Days, when the Spirit would be poured out and the Lord would save the Remnant of Israel, leading to the salvation of all men who would call on the name of the Lord. Notice in 3:1, “in those days and in that time” which wasn’t actually near in Joel’s day. Now, there was an “at hand” day of the Lord in Joel’s day, but the statement above, “in those days and in that time” delineates this day of the Lord from the “at hand” day of the Lord which actually occurred in Joel’s day.
Joel was now being told of events that would occur in the future Last Days at that time. W then, what would be true in the Last Days? Joel 3:14…the Day of the Lord is near in the valley of Jehoshaphat. But did this mean that Joel was actually saying that this day that he’s speaking of as the Last Days was near to HIM? No, he just told us that the Day of the Lord he’s talking about in 3:14 comes AFTER the previous Day of the Lord that he was first speaking about. There are TWO “Days of the Lord” in Joel. The first one is found here:
-----------------------------------------
Full text:
https://thykingdomcame.com/category/bible-study-2/
In Joel chapters 2-3, it is a prediction of the Last Days, when the Spirit would be poured out and the Lord would save the Remnant of Israel, leading to the salvation of all men who would call on the name of the Lord. Notice in 3:1, “in those days and in that time” which wasn’t actually near in Joel’s day. Now, there was an “at hand” day of the Lord in Joel’s day, but the statement above, “in those days and in that time” delineates this day of the Lord from the “at hand” day of the Lord which actually occurred in Joel’s day.
Joel was now being told of events that would occur in the future Last Days at that time. W then, what would be true in the Last Days? Joel 3:14…the Day of the Lord is near in the valley of Jehoshaphat. But did this mean that Joel was actually saying that this day that he’s speaking of as the Last Days was near to HIM? No, he just told us that the Day of the Lord he’s talking about in 3:14 comes AFTER the previous Day of the Lord that he was first speaking about. There are TWO “Days of the Lord” in Joel. The first one is found here:
Joel 1:15 [KJV]
Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Joel 2:1 [KJV]
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
The second one begins here:Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Joel 2:1 [KJV]
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joel 2:28-32 [KJV]
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
And Joel references the second “Last Days” coming of the Lord again here, saying that “in those days, and in that time…”And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joel 3:1 [KJV]
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
…That it would then be considered “near…” This is projected imminence.For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joel 3:14 [KJV]
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Remember that Peter said that when the Old Testament prophets spoke of the Last Days, the eschatological “Day of the Lord”, the coming of eternal salvation at that Day of the Lord (1 Peter 1:3-5), they knew they were not speaking of THEIR OWN day, but of Peter’s day. And, thus, we find passages like Daniel 12:Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
-----------------------------------------
Full text:
https://thykingdomcame.com/category/bible-study-2/
Look what happens before the creation of the new heavens and earth:
Isa 65:15 “You will leave your name for a curse to My chosen ones, and the Lord GOD will slay you. But My servants will be called by another name.
Isa 65:16 “Because he who is blessed in the earth will be blessed by the God of truth; And he who swears in the earth will swear by the God of truth; Because the former troubles are forgotten, And because they are hidden from My sight!
Isa 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
The "new heavens and new earth" are created after the slaying of apostate Israel for it's blood guilt in killing the prophets, the Lord Jesus and his apostles.
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her.”
Rev 11:1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.
Rev 11:2 “Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.
Do you think it's coincidence that the war of 66-70 AD was 42 months?
Locutus' believe it or not.
Isa 65:15 “You will leave your name for a curse to My chosen ones, and the Lord GOD will slay you. But My servants will be called by another name.
Isa 65:16 “Because he who is blessed in the earth will be blessed by the God of truth; And he who swears in the earth will swear by the God of truth; Because the former troubles are forgotten, And because they are hidden from My sight!
Isa 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
The "new heavens and new earth" are created after the slaying of apostate Israel for it's blood guilt in killing the prophets, the Lord Jesus and his apostles.
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her.”
Rev 11:1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.
Rev 11:2 “Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.
Do you think it's coincidence that the war of 66-70 AD was 42 months?
Locutus' believe it or not.
This whole 'elements" thing being the "teachings of the law" is a bunch of bologna too. What does the context of 2 Peter 3 actually say?
2 Peter 3: 5-7, "For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of WATER and in the WATER, 6 by which the WORLD THAT THEN EXISTED PERISHED, BEING FLOODED WITH WATER. 7 But the HEAVENS AND EARTH WHICH ARE NOW are preserved by the same word, are RESERVED FOR FIRE until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
and then the verse you quoted,
2 Peter 3: 12, "waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!"
So riddle me this Batman, why does Peter compare the 'burning of the elements" to the former world that perished with PHYSICAL water?
Because Peter obviously knew it would happen only one way. A PHYSICAL destruction of the current heavens and earth by fire.
Hebrews 12: 26-27, "“Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain.
2 Peter 3: 5-7, "For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of WATER and in the WATER, 6 by which the WORLD THAT THEN EXISTED PERISHED, BEING FLOODED WITH WATER. 7 But the HEAVENS AND EARTH WHICH ARE NOW are preserved by the same word, are RESERVED FOR FIRE until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
and then the verse you quoted,
2 Peter 3: 12, "waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!"
So riddle me this Batman, why does Peter compare the 'burning of the elements" to the former world that perished with PHYSICAL water?
Because Peter obviously knew it would happen only one way. A PHYSICAL destruction of the current heavens and earth by fire.
Hebrews 12: 26-27, "“Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain.
It's simple Robin - the earth wasn't destroyed in the flood neither was the heavens.
The kosmou back then was destroyed not the earth, had Peter wished to convey to his readers the planet he would have used the Greek ghn.
To understand the "world" that was destroyed you need to understand what is was at stake such as here:
Matt 4:8 Again, the devil *took Him to a very high mountain and *showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
And let's not forget that Peter had told them in his previous letter that the Day of the Lord was at hand, do you think he forgot what he already wrote to them?
1 Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
The kosmou back then was destroyed not the earth, had Peter wished to convey to his readers the planet he would have used the Greek ghn.
To understand the "world" that was destroyed you need to understand what is was at stake such as here:
Matt 4:8 Again, the devil *took Him to a very high mountain and *showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
And let's not forget that Peter had told them in his previous letter that the Day of the Lord was at hand, do you think he forgot what he already wrote to them?
1 Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
I never said the former EARTH was destroyed. I said, "the former WORLD that perished with PHYSICAL water." My point was everybody died except Noah and his family. That's exactly what Peter says in 2 Peter 3: 6 which I quoted you.
I know that Kosmos in the Greek means world. That's why I said everybody perished PHYSICALLY. How? By being drowned. Did you think I was saying the Earth drowned? That's a bit silly.
You probably know this but just to remind you, there are MULTIPLE "Days of the Lord" in Scripture in the Old Testament. Some of them clearly refer to judgments that had nothing to do with A.D. 70. There is still one more "Day of the Lord" to come. The last day which is the Great White Throne judgment which I explained in my original post.
Full-preterists love quotes like these because they think somehow it proves their position. ALL THINGS clearly did not end in A.D. 70. You use an ambiguous term to try to support a system. That's what cults do. You must read into the text ONLY JEWISH THINGS means all things. Does the context of 1 Peter 4 say that?
Why did Jesus liken His coming to the days of Noah? Because everybody perished then except the righteous and it will be the same when He returns. Just like many parables and teachings in the New Testament confimr.
Not everybody perished in A.D. 70. Not even close.
I know that Kosmos in the Greek means world. That's why I said everybody perished PHYSICALLY. How? By being drowned. Did you think I was saying the Earth drowned? That's a bit silly.
You probably know this but just to remind you, there are MULTIPLE "Days of the Lord" in Scripture in the Old Testament. Some of them clearly refer to judgments that had nothing to do with A.D. 70. There is still one more "Day of the Lord" to come. The last day which is the Great White Throne judgment which I explained in my original post.
Full-preterists love quotes like these because they think somehow it proves their position. ALL THINGS clearly did not end in A.D. 70. You use an ambiguous term to try to support a system. That's what cults do. You must read into the text ONLY JEWISH THINGS means all things. Does the context of 1 Peter 4 say that?
Why did Jesus liken His coming to the days of Noah? Because everybody perished then except the righteous and it will be the same when He returns. Just like many parables and teachings in the New Testament confimr.
Not everybody perished in A.D. 70. Not even close.
Yes the theory that all has been fulfilled is false.
The last battle was not 70 ad
In Ezekiel chapter 38, verse 8 refers to “the latter years”
—the time we are living in now.
“Gog” is Russia, and that “the land of Magog” includes China.
“the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal.
Rosh was the ancient name of Russia, once called Rus.
In Assyrian and Greek histories, Meshech appears as Musku, Muski or Mushki
—all names related to the Russian spelling of Moscow.
The city of Tobolsk, named after the Tobol River, a name derived from Tubal.
Tobolsk was once the seat of Russian government over Siberia,Russia’s Asian capital.
Russian President Vladimir Putin could well be the prince of Rosh.
Asian confederacy as “the kings of the east” (Revelation 16:12).
With an army of 200 million men: “and I heard the number of them” (Rev 9:16).
In Joel 2:11, this 200 million-man Asian force is actually called God’s army.
Ezekiel’s prophecy says the Russian-led army will include “Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya
… Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands:
and many people …” (Ezekiel 38:5-6).
Gomer refers to Japan, . Ethiopia and Libya should be translated “Cush” and “Phut.”
Some of Cush and Phut migrated to African nations, but the rest settled in parts of India.
It refers to modern-day Indians (and perhaps Pakistanis) rather than Africans.
The Armageddon Armies: This immense war between European and Asian forces will end
in the return of Jesus Christ. Revelation 17:12-14 and Daniel 8:25 prophesy that Christ
will demolish these powers.
“Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants
of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand” (Joel 2:1).
This is a message for “every inhabitant on Earth”
“[A]nd behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them,
and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”
Not even a blade of grass is going to escape them.
This is clearly talking about a nuclear attack!
That “all faces shall gather blackness.” This is a bleak and sorrowful time. “The earth shall quake
before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall
withdraw their shining” (verse 10). This describes a nuclear winter. People won’t even see the
stars because of the nuclear fallout.
Ezekiel 38- 39, we see that much of this prophecy takes place after Christ’s Second Coming.
Jesus Christ defeats the European and Asian armies in the battle at Jerusalem,
He will allow the surviving Asian forces to return to their homelands.
Ezekiel 38:4 states, “I [God] will turn thee back” in the first Jerusalem battle.
Then Christ, King of kings and Lord of lords, will gather His scattered people,
the end-time descendants of Israel, around Jerusalem.
After awhile the Asian powers begin to covet the wealth they see in Jerusalem.
They see a prosperous but unarmed area—and, in another burst of rebellion,
decide they want to take it.
So they muster their forces for one final attempt to overthrow Christ’s rule in
the Holy City. God allows them to come into the Holy Land. But their plan is doomed!
“After many days” (a very few years), Gog and his allies launch another attack on Jerusalem.
This occurs after Israel has been “brought back from the sword” and is ruled by Christ from there.
Why will God allow this rebellion to happen?
God telling Ezekiel to “prophesy and say unto Gog … thou shalt come from thy place out of the
north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company,
and a mighty army” (verses 14-15). Then verse 16 gets to the purpose why God allows this
attack: “ And I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me ….”
By speaking the only language they understand: the language of force. The nations are going
to know because of the total victory God will have over Asia’s burst of rebellion.
In Ezekiel 39:11, God says, “And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog
a place there of graves in Israel ….”
This is the second attack on Jerusalem, a few years after Christ has established His rule.
Only one sixth of the huge force will survive to return home this time (verse 2).
The rest will be buried just east of the Dead Sea (verse 11). It will give new meaning
to the name Dead Sea! And the number of fallen is so huge that it will take seven months
to bury all the bodies and to clean up the area! (verse 12).
It will be a monumental warning to the entire world at that time,
at the beginning of the 1,000-year rule of Jesus Christ!
Joel 2:12 further explains the purpose of these epic events: “Therefore also now, saith the Lord,
turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning.”
That is God’s message to the people of the world. He wants us to turn to Him.
“Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly”
The last battle was not 70 ad
In Ezekiel chapter 38, verse 8 refers to “the latter years”
—the time we are living in now.
“Gog” is Russia, and that “the land of Magog” includes China.
“the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal.
Rosh was the ancient name of Russia, once called Rus.
In Assyrian and Greek histories, Meshech appears as Musku, Muski or Mushki
—all names related to the Russian spelling of Moscow.
The city of Tobolsk, named after the Tobol River, a name derived from Tubal.
Tobolsk was once the seat of Russian government over Siberia,Russia’s Asian capital.
Russian President Vladimir Putin could well be the prince of Rosh.
Asian confederacy as “the kings of the east” (Revelation 16:12).
With an army of 200 million men: “and I heard the number of them” (Rev 9:16).
In Joel 2:11, this 200 million-man Asian force is actually called God’s army.
Ezekiel’s prophecy says the Russian-led army will include “Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya
… Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands:
and many people …” (Ezekiel 38:5-6).
Gomer refers to Japan, . Ethiopia and Libya should be translated “Cush” and “Phut.”
Some of Cush and Phut migrated to African nations, but the rest settled in parts of India.
It refers to modern-day Indians (and perhaps Pakistanis) rather than Africans.
The Armageddon Armies: This immense war between European and Asian forces will end
in the return of Jesus Christ. Revelation 17:12-14 and Daniel 8:25 prophesy that Christ
will demolish these powers.
“Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants
of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand” (Joel 2:1).
This is a message for “every inhabitant on Earth”
“[A]nd behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them,
and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”
Not even a blade of grass is going to escape them.
This is clearly talking about a nuclear attack!
That “all faces shall gather blackness.” This is a bleak and sorrowful time. “The earth shall quake
before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall
withdraw their shining” (verse 10). This describes a nuclear winter. People won’t even see the
stars because of the nuclear fallout.
Ezekiel 38- 39, we see that much of this prophecy takes place after Christ’s Second Coming.
Jesus Christ defeats the European and Asian armies in the battle at Jerusalem,
He will allow the surviving Asian forces to return to their homelands.
Ezekiel 38:4 states, “I [God] will turn thee back” in the first Jerusalem battle.
Then Christ, King of kings and Lord of lords, will gather His scattered people,
the end-time descendants of Israel, around Jerusalem.
After awhile the Asian powers begin to covet the wealth they see in Jerusalem.
They see a prosperous but unarmed area—and, in another burst of rebellion,
decide they want to take it.
So they muster their forces for one final attempt to overthrow Christ’s rule in
the Holy City. God allows them to come into the Holy Land. But their plan is doomed!
“After many days” (a very few years), Gog and his allies launch another attack on Jerusalem.
This occurs after Israel has been “brought back from the sword” and is ruled by Christ from there.
Why will God allow this rebellion to happen?
God telling Ezekiel to “prophesy and say unto Gog … thou shalt come from thy place out of the
north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company,
and a mighty army” (verses 14-15). Then verse 16 gets to the purpose why God allows this
attack: “ And I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me ….”
By speaking the only language they understand: the language of force. The nations are going
to know because of the total victory God will have over Asia’s burst of rebellion.
In Ezekiel 39:11, God says, “And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog
a place there of graves in Israel ….”
This is the second attack on Jerusalem, a few years after Christ has established His rule.
Only one sixth of the huge force will survive to return home this time (verse 2).
The rest will be buried just east of the Dead Sea (verse 11). It will give new meaning
to the name Dead Sea! And the number of fallen is so huge that it will take seven months
to bury all the bodies and to clean up the area! (verse 12).
It will be a monumental warning to the entire world at that time,
at the beginning of the 1,000-year rule of Jesus Christ!
Joel 2:12 further explains the purpose of these epic events: “Therefore also now, saith the Lord,
turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning.”
That is God’s message to the people of the world. He wants us to turn to Him.
“Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly”
I showed from my original post why a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible from Scripture. Did you have any argument from the Scriptures to refute what I posted?
How do you answer Job 14: 12, "Man lies down and does not rise again until the heavens are no more"?
Everything you posted with Revelation, Ezekiel 38-39, and Joel 2 is dispensational teaching. It is their INTERPRETATION of what they think those verses mean. The verses you posted about China's army, nuclear attack, Rosh being Russia, are all dispensational teachings. They are ASSUMPTIONS. The verses don't say any of those things.
The verse I quoted above from Job is not an ASSUMPTION. It is EXPLICIT and clear. Doctrines should be built on the clear verses not the speculative ones.
According to your dispensational system you have people being resurrected when there is still a heavens. How do you explain that?
Also, John 6: 39, 6:44, 6:54, and 11:24 all EXPLICITLY say that the saints are resurrected on the LAST DAY.
John 12: 48 also says the wicked will be judged in the LAST DAY. Once again, these are EXPLICIT verses not ASSUMPTIONS by me. It is the dispensation system that makes WILD ASSUMPTIONS.
The verses I just quoted have both the saved and wicked being raised and judged the same day. How do you explain that?
The dispensational system, with it's 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth can't, but my original post does.
How do you answer Job 14: 12, "Man lies down and does not rise again until the heavens are no more"?
Everything you posted with Revelation, Ezekiel 38-39, and Joel 2 is dispensational teaching. It is their INTERPRETATION of what they think those verses mean. The verses you posted about China's army, nuclear attack, Rosh being Russia, are all dispensational teachings. They are ASSUMPTIONS. The verses don't say any of those things.
The verse I quoted above from Job is not an ASSUMPTION. It is EXPLICIT and clear. Doctrines should be built on the clear verses not the speculative ones.
According to your dispensational system you have people being resurrected when there is still a heavens. How do you explain that?
Also, John 6: 39, 6:44, 6:54, and 11:24 all EXPLICITLY say that the saints are resurrected on the LAST DAY.
John 12: 48 also says the wicked will be judged in the LAST DAY. Once again, these are EXPLICIT verses not ASSUMPTIONS by me. It is the dispensation system that makes WILD ASSUMPTIONS.
The verses I just quoted have both the saved and wicked being raised and judged the same day. How do you explain that?
The dispensational system, with it's 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth can't, but my original post does.
I don't know of anything in the bible that speaks of a resurrection in AD 70 but the bible does say that many of the old testament saints that slept were raised at Christ's resurrection.
So per Job 14:12 the "heavens were no more" when Christ was raised from the dead because the old testament saints awoke and walked the streets of Jerusalem.
Job 14:12 KJV
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
So per Job 14:12 the "heavens were no more" when Christ was raised from the dead because the old testament saints awoke and walked the streets of Jerusalem.
Job 14:12 KJV
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
That is a misapplication of this Scripture. What is this verse talking about? Death and the end of death. And it is further telling us that in the New Heavens and the New Earth there will be no death. "Till the heavens be no more" refers to the present atmospheric and stratospheric heavens, which will vanish away.
As Paul said "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1 Cor 15:26), and when Death and Hades are metaphorically cast into the Lake of Fire, that is the end of death and the abolishing of Hades (Rev 20). Next we see the New Heavens and the New Earth (Rev 21).
As Paul said "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1 Cor 15:26), and when Death and Hades are metaphorically cast into the Lake of Fire, that is the end of death and the abolishing of Hades (Rev 20). Next we see the New Heavens and the New Earth (Rev 21).
-
1
- Show all