The 144,000 named in Revelation

[TruthwillsetyouFree]

Hey Gang.......Much has been proposed about the 144,000 in the book of Revelation which contains past, present and future context....even the False Jehovah's Non-Witnessses jumped on board with their take, as well as numerous other groups.....my view is listed below...this came up in another thread and I wanted to put it out for all to examine. I am not here to argue these point....After a very diligent look into the facts listed about the 144,000 I have come to the following conclusion.

First note the facts about the 144,000

Locations identified with
144,000 standing on MOUNT ZION with their FATHER'S seal on their foreheads
They are SINGING a SONG BEFORE the THRONE, BEFORE the 4 beasts and the elders
THEY follow the LAMB where ever he GOES
They are without fault before the throne

They have been redeemed
FROM the EARTH
FROM among MEN

They are a special unique group
ONLY they can learn the song they sing

They are faultless boys who have not had sex
They have not been defiled with women
They are virgins
They have no guile/deceit in their mouths

They are called the same word Christ is called
Being the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

What group in history can fit this group....the boys murdered by HEROD in the place of Christ

a. They are a unique group
b. They were boys
c. They were virgins
d. They have never been defiled with women
e. They have told no lies or used deceit or guile
f. They were alive <--redeemed from among men
g. They were dead <--redeemed from the earth (ground)
h. They are located before the throne, before the 4 beasts, before the elders and the follow the lamb where ever he goes (all in heaven)
I. Identified as the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

My view....they are the train of the Lord and represent the wave offering given by JESUS along with himself before the throne.

144,000 perfect, unblemished Jewish martyred males in the place of JESUS <---the cream of the "wheat" crop if there ever was one.

Let me begin with, I like how you are using reason to deduct your hypothesis. But I do have some concerning questions here. According to biblical science and people who study geneaology, at the time of Noah more than 7 billion people were on the planet during the flood, and it has been thought that by the time Jesus arrived the Jews were almost 3 million strong. If we take 50% of the Jews as having children then (according to the rate of population growth), that is close 1.5 million babies. If the 144,000 come from this group, that means the Jews have baby boys 1 out of every 8 births. Today's Jews is around 60/40% more boys born. If we just went by logic and math alone, it's hard to believe there was only 144,000 boys at age of 2 and under being killed by Herod. Mathematically alone, with birth rate traditionally once accounted for, one would believe there would have been around 1 million plus boys killed during that time.

But, like I wrote in the beginning of my first paragraph, I am loving how you are using reasoning to deduct your hypothesis!

 

[Deade]

Let me begin with, I like how you are using reason to deduct your hypothesis. But I do have some concerning questions here. According to biblical science and people who study geneaology, at the time of Noah more than 7 billion people were on the planet during the flood, and it has been thought that by the time Jesus arrived the Jews were almost 3 million strong. If we take 50% of the Jews as having children then (according to the rate of population growth), that is close 1.5 million babies. If the 144,000 come from this group, that means the Jews have baby boys 1 out of every 8 births. Today's Jews is around 60/40% more boys born. If we just went by logic and math alone, it's hard to believe there was only 144,000 boys at age of 2 and under being killed by Herod. Mathematically alone, with birth rate traditionally once accounted for, one would believe there would have been around 1 million plus boys killed during that time.

But, like I wrote in the beginning of my first paragraph, I am loving how you are using reasoning to deduct your hypothesis!

Go back and reread the scripture. Herod did not kill all the Jewish babies. Just the ones in the small town of Bethlehem and the surrounding suburbs (coasts).

 

[dcontroversal]

Were you scolding me for what I said there? I made no judgement on your view of the 144,000.

No, was not scolding....I am very blunt, straight forward and a little fiery....thanks for asking instead of flipping a lid....

 

[Locutus]

Unless someone is given by our Father to say and be true saying thus says our Father, I am not allowed by faith to interpret Daniel or Revelation because the angel told Daniel when it is time people would understand, that is, he told Daniel to write down the prophesy and put it in a book for it is for another generation to understand……..When it is truly begun, we will all know.

JJ - Daniel was told to "seal the book" - John was told "seal not".

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Rev 22:10 KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

The time was at hand when John wrote - there is no waiting nearly 2000 years to understand it.

It was written to the seven churches to show them what was to shortly come to pass.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[dcontroversal]

Let me begin with, I like how you are using reason to deduct your hypothesis. But I do have some concerning questions here. According to biblical science and people who study geneaology, at the time of Noah more than 7 billion people were on the planet during the flood, and it has been thought that by the time Jesus arrived the Jews were almost 3 million strong. If we take 50% of the Jews as having children then (according to the rate of population growth), that is close 1.5 million babies. If the 144,000 come from this group, that means the Jews have baby boys 1 out of every 8 births. Today's Jews is around 60/40% more boys born. If we just went by logic and math alone, it's hard to believe there was only 144,000 boys at age of 2 and under being killed by Herod. Mathematically alone, with birth rate traditionally once accounted for, one would believe there would have been around 1 million plus boys killed during that time.

But, like I wrote in the beginning of my first paragraph, I am loving how you are using reasoning to deduct your hypothesis!

I understand your point and will say....when Israel came out of Egypt they estimated a few million people with 600,000 men of war over 20 and young enough to fight.....this does not include Children, babies, old men....and it seems logical and within reason that the male to female ratio and possibly 50/50....Having said that......We see great blessings from God upon the children of Israel concerning children and PROOF that the birth rate of males were more significant.

Isaac had 12 sons and 1 daughter
Ishmael (even though half breed) had 12 sons and 1 daughter
David had some 19 sons, (4 from BathSheba alone) and what 1 daughter Tamar
etc.

It is highly probable that there were easily 144,000 males under the age of 2 during this time frame IMV

 

[TruthwillsetyouFree]

Go back and reread the scripture. Herod did not kill all the Jewish babies. Just the ones in the small town of Bethlehem and the surrounding suburbs (coasts).

Excellent point and thank you!

 

[TruthwillsetyouFree]

I understand your point and will say....when Israel came out of Egypt they estimated a few million people with 600,000 men of war over 20 and young enough to fight.....this does not include Children, babies, old men....and it seems logical and within reason that the male to female ratio and possibly 50/50....Having said that......We see great blessings from God upon the children of Israel concerning children and PROOF that the birth rate of males were more significant.

Isaac had 12 sons and 1 daughter
Ishmael (even though half breed) had 12 sons and 1 daughter
David had some 19 sons, (4 from BathSheba alone) and what 1 daughter Tamar
etc.

It is highly probable that there were easily 144,000 males under the age of 2 during this time frame IMV

I only pointed out the math since I was recently studying how many people populated the earth during the time of Noah and of Christ. But in all honesty, your reasoning about the 144,000 is by far the most logical point ever made. I know since 1948 over 9 million Jews have relocated and populated today's Israel. And that also seems like it has the potential to produce these 144,000. Especially since we know the Jews are going back to their traditions with plans on their Temple rebuild. But like the 2 witnesses during the Tribulation (obviously will come from heaven Moses-Elijah (some believe Enoch), the 144,000 could also come from heaven as well.

 

[dcontroversal]

I only pointed out the math since I was recently studying how many people populated the earth during the time of Noah and of Christ. But in all honesty, your reasoning about the 144,000 is by far the most logical point ever made. I know since 1948 over 9 million Jews have relocated and populated today's Israel. And that also seems like it has the potential to produce these 144,000. Especially since we know the Jews are going back to their traditions with plans on their Temple rebuild. But like the 2 witnesses during the Tribulation (obviously will come from heaven Moses-Elijah (some believe Enoch), the 144,000 could also come from heaven as well.

Thanks and you are not the only one who has said that.....it was definitely a "BING" moment if you know what I mean.....realized the above when writing a chapter for my book on the second coming.....I was listing and writing out the facts and it was like a light bulb went on....I was like....there is a group from history that can fit this....combined with the fact of the prophecy about Rachael weeping for her children and her children are not and the fact that ALL of Jacobs children were attributed unto Rachael because she was the one whom he loved......it made sense to me......just an observation for sure, but I do believe a solid one.....

 

[TruthwillsetyouFree]

Thanks and you are not the only one who has said that.....it was definitely a "BING" moment if you know what I mean.....realized the above when writing a chapter for my book on the second coming.....I was listing and writing out the facts and it was like a light bulb went on....I was like....there is a group from history that can fit this....combined with the fact of the prophecy about Rachael weeping for her children and her children are not and the fact that ALL of Jacobs children were attributed unto Rachael because she was the one whom he loved......it made sense to me......just an observation for sure, but I do believe a solid one.....

The more I entertain the idea, the more I am liking it. I think you have hit the nail on the head with this. It makes me wish the end time was playing out right now so I can see how that does occur lol

 

[Deade]

The more I entertain the idea, the more I am liking it. I think you have hit the nail on the head with this. It makes me wish the end time was playing out right now so I can see how that does occur lol

How does all this math account for 12,000 babies from each of the 12 tribes wind up being in Bethlehem-Judah early in the first century. It doesn't compute, the tribes stayed in their areas. The 10-Northern tribes were long lost to history. God know where they are, but not they themselves.

 

[TruthwillsetyouFree]

How does all this math account for 12,000 babies from each of the 12 tribes wind up being in Bethlehem-Judah early in the first century. It doesn't compute, the tribes stayed in their areas. The 10-Northern tribes were long lost to history. God know where they are, but not they themselves.

Excellent question...Have you been studying today's Jews in Israel? They have been re-establishing the tribes in Israel. They have elected a High Priest. They seem to believe they have found a red calf that will bring them their Messiah and help pave the way to rebuild their Temple. They have many things in place in their attempts to continue the old traditions after 70 A.D.'s destruction. It's been an actual education studying it all.

 

[Nehemiah6]

144,000 perfect, unblemished Jewish martyred males in the place of JESUS

Not martyred but raptured, just like the Church.

 

[Nehemiah6]

God know where they are, but not they themselves.

And why should that be an issue? God knows how, when, where, why, and who will be a part of this group, and bringing Bethlehem into the equation is irrelevant. If God has identified them as 12,000 out of each tribe, that should be accepted unquestioningly.

Also, many claim that they are evangelists, but there is no support fro that assumption.

 

[Deade]

Excellent question...Have you been studying today's Jews in Israel? They have been re-establishing the tribes in Israel. They have elected a High Priest. They seem to believe they have found a red calf that will bring them their Messiah and help pave the way to rebuild their Temple. They have many things in place in their attempts to continue the old traditions after 70 A.D.'s destruction. It's been an actual education studying it all.

I don't pay much attention to the folks that are occupying Israel's land today. They are counterfeits. They do not have any right to the name Israel. Some of them are Jews maybe, but many are just mixed blood people that practice Judaism. They should have used the name Judah for that is what they are trying to establish.

God differentiates Judah from Israel. Prophecy speaks of another people that are Israel. The name was assigned to Joseph's sons in Gen. 48:16. The name always applied to the Northern Kingdom that was carried away in 721 BCE.

 

[Deade]

And why should that be an issue? God knows how, when, where, why, and who will be a part of this group, and bringing Bethlehem into the equation is irrelevant. If God has identified them as 12,000 out of each tribe, that should be accepted unquestioningly.

Also, many claim that they are evangelists, but there is no support fro that assumption.

My, aren't you being nasty today? What makes you the arbitrator of God's calling on folks? Besides, Bethlehem was where they were living. Not irrelevant.

 

[dcontroversal]

Not martyred but raptured, just like the Church.

Does not say that at all.......just your embellishment!

 

[dcontroversal]

How does all this math account for 12,000 babies from each of the 12 tribes wind up being in Bethlehem-Judah early in the first century. It doesn't compute, the tribes stayed in their areas. The 10-Northern tribes were long lost to history. God know where they are, but not they themselves.

AND ALL the COASTS thereof and I will point out that JEWS from the 10 Northern tribes were also carried away captive by the Assyrians and SOME fled into the Southern KINGDOM....

 

[Deade]

AND ALL the COASTS thereof and I will point out that JEWS from the 10 Northern tribes were also carried away captive by the Assyrians and SOME fled into the Southern KINGDOM....

There is no historical proof. Many try to say this to justify the name. Mainly those practicing Judaism. History says they (10 - N. tribes) are lost, period.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Does not say that at all.......just your embellishment!

Not at all. Your misunderstanding.

REVELATION 7: SEALED BY ANGELS AGAINST JUDGMENTS
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

REVELATION 14: REDEEMED FROM AMONG MEN
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, [the New Jerusalem in Heaven, the city of the living God, see Heb 12:22] and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads... And they sung as it were a new song before the throne [in Heaven]... the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth... These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (vv 1-5)

There is not even a hint that these men were martyred. Rather they were sealed against any kind of judgment. There is not even a hint that they were evangelists. They were "redeemed" from the earth, just as the Church will be redeemed from the earth at the Rapture -- "the redemption of our body".

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom 8:23).

 

[dcontroversal]

There is no historical proof. Many try to say this to justify the name. Mainly those practicing Judaism. History says they (10 - N. tribes) are lost, period.

I don't care what history says....I can read the bible and it is plain enough......maybe you should try it.....