Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,214
1,980
113
^ This was written quite awhile AFTER the Cross, right?

And do you think there's some reason for the phrase "For this is My covenant unto them [Israel]…" ?


[Isaiah 28:20 "20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it."]
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
490
97
28
I'm not sure what your beef is... Let me ask you this (I just posted this passage, below, in a different thread), when do you see the bold phrase taking place? :
I don't have a beef with you. In fact, God bless you. I am trying to fight against what I perceive is bad doctrine and promote God's truth. I am sure that you are trying to do the same.

For this is my covenant unto them [Israel], when I shall take away their sins.
You are making another category error. Jesus accomplished the 6 things of Daniel 9: 24 in the 70th week. Jews or Gentiles don't receive forgiveness for their sins until they put their faith in Christ and his atoning work. But Jesus already made an end of sins at the cross. He brought in everlasting righteousness at the cross. That's why He is called "The Lord our Righteousness".

And do you think there's some reason for the phrase "For this is My covenant unto them [Israel]…" ?
What did Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy say in Dan 9: 24? It's for your people and your holy city and it lists those 6 things to be accomplished.. So what is the covenant? It's the same covenant God made to Abraham. That there would be a Messiah to deliver Israel from their sins. Here it is again:

Daniel 9: 27 "
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

Jesus was the final sacrifice. He brought an end to it. I know you think this is talking about the antichrist but then why does Romans 15: 8 say this,

"Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers."

That's what Jesus did at the crucifixion. Who are the many of Daniel 9: 27?

Matthew 26: 28, "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Sins are sealed and done away with at the cross just like Gabriel said they would be in Dan 9: 24. Jew or Gentile don't receive that though until they put their faith in Christ.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,214
1,980
113
Your quoting of Romans 15:8, I say correlates more with what Peter had stated to "ye men of Israel" in Acts 3 (following the crucifixion, but talking about His ministry BEFORE His death on the cross), when he said, "His Servant Jesus" (see Acts 3:13,26 [re: BEFORE His death] and also verses 22-23 "A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me [Moses]; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you." [also re: BEFORE His death; again see Heb3:2,5,6 along with the parallels I already supplied with that]).

So in view of that, I agree with what Gaebelein says here, about Romans 15:8 -

[quoting]

"Romans 15:8-13

"The exhortations are ended, and what we find in the rest of this chapter is supplementary to the whole Epistle and touches once more on the question concerning the Jews and the Gentiles. Christ was the minister of the circumcision for the truth of God to confirm the promises to the fathers. Thus He appeared in the midst of His people. But the Gentiles also were to receive mercy through Him. Four Scriptures are quoted to prove that it is the purpose of God to bless the Gentiles in mercy with His people Israel (Psalm 18:49; Deuteronomy 32:43 in Moses’ great prophetic song; Psalm 117:1 and Isaiah 11:10). But it must not be overlooked that these quotations do not teach that Gentiles are as fellow heirs put into the same body with believing Jews. They show that God had announced that Gentiles would rejoice in salvation and trust in Christ. The fulfillment of the passages quoted awaits the second coming of our Lord “when He shall rise to reign over the Gentiles,” when Gentiles will rejoice with the saved remnant of Israel. “Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Spirit.” This is our most blessed inheritance. The Holy Spirit indwells the child of God and in believing He manifests His power, the God of hope filling us with all joy and peace, so that we abound in hope, looking forward to that blessed day, the realization of our blessed Hope, when we shall be like Him and see Him as He is."

--Arno C Gaebelein, Commentary on Romans 15

[end quoting; bold/underline mine]
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,214
1,980
113
Oops, that response ^ of mine was meant to be in reference to this specific part you had written:

"Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers."

That's what Jesus did at the crucifixion


… and it says "to have become [perfect tense] a servant..."
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
490
97
28
Oops, that response ^ of mine was meant to be in reference to this specific part you had written:
No worries. It's late.

I've got to go to bed. Perhaps we can continue the discussion some other time. Happy Thanksgiving. :)
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,632
113
Is it thanksgiving today? Happy thanksgiving to all the Americans!
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
I fink "finish the transgression" is to doooo with the end of the law rather than Jesus' death which it heralded.
People including Jews still transgress the law so how do you figure the transgression, if it’s the end of the law, is finished?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,214
1,980
113
I may have been thinking of Ezekiel 36:33 (not sure, will keep thinking... :unsure: ), but just wanted to mention that verse here:

"33 Thus saith the Lord God; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also..."


[and quoting Gaebelein]

"Ezekiel 36:1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD: Ezekiel 36:1-38. With this chapter the great prophetic utterances of Ezekiel begin concerning the future restoration and blessing of Israel. From here on to the end of the book, all is still unfulfilled, nor can it be fulfilled until the Lord Jesus Christ comes again and is enthroned as King. The first seven verses (Ezekiel 36:1-7) announce once more the future judgment of Israel’s enemies. Then comes the promised return to the land Ezekiel 36:8-15. The mountains of Israel, barren so long, shall be inhabited again. Israel’s past sins and chastisement are reviewed in Ezekiel 36:16-20, and then comes that great message of restoration and blessing through grace in that day when their once rejected King returns and they bow before Him. The characteristic words in Ezekiel 36:23-28 are the words “I will do.” It is the word of sovereign grace. Eighteen times Jehovah says what He will do. They are the “I wills” of Israel’s hope and coming glory.

"He will gather them from among the nations and all countries and bring them back to their own land. Only a superficial expositor can speak of a fulfillment when they returned from Babylon. But even if this were so, though it is not, the verses which follow have never been fulfilled in the past. The cleansing of the nation is next promised: “I will sprinkle clean water upon you and ye shall be clean.” It refers us to the water mixed with the ashes of the red heifer, which was sprinkled with a hyssop on the unclean, typifying the precious blood of Christ in its cleansing power Hebrews 9:13-28; Hebrews 10:22. Thus, when the people of Israel believe on Him and look upon Him whom they pierced Zechariah 12:10, they will be cleansed. “In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness” Zechariah 13:1. Then follows the promise of the new birth of Israel. “A new heart will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you.” The stony heart is to be taken away and they will receive a heart of flesh. Our Lord had this passage in mind when He talked with Nicodemus about the new birth. Nicodemus, the teacher in Israel, was ignorant of the fact that this new birth for Israel is necessary in order to be in that coming kingdom and to receive its blessings. Therefore the Lord said to him, “If I have told you earthly things (about Israel and the new birth as the way into the kingdom) and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you of heavenly things?” (the heavenly blessings which follow His sacrificial death)."

--Arno C Gaebelein, Commentary on Ezekiel 36

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/ezekiel/36.htm

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
I may have been thinking of Ezekiel 36:33 (not sure, will keep thinking... :unsure: ), but just wanted to mention that verse here:

"33 Thus saith the Lord God; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also..."


[and quoting Gaebelein]

"Ezekiel 36:1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD: Ezekiel 36:1-38. With this chapter the great prophetic utterances of Ezekiel begin concerning the future restoration and blessing of Israel. From here on to the end of the book, all is still unfulfilled, nor can it be fulfilled until the Lord Jesus Christ comes again and is enthroned as King. The first seven verses (Ezekiel 36:1-7) announce once more the future judgment of Israel’s enemies. Then comes the promised return to the land Ezekiel 36:8-15. The mountains of Israel, barren so long, shall be inhabited again. Israel’s past sins and chastisement are reviewed in Ezekiel 36:16-20, and then comes that great message of restoration and blessing through grace in that day when their once rejected King returns and they bow before Him. The characteristic words in Ezekiel 36:23-28 are the words “I will do.” It is the word of sovereign grace. Eighteen times Jehovah says what He will do. They are the “I wills” of Israel’s hope and coming glory.

"He will gather them from among the nations and all countries and bring them back to their own land. Only a superficial expositor can speak of a fulfillment when they returned from Babylon. But even if this were so, though it is not, the verses which follow have never been fulfilled in the past. The cleansing of the nation is next promised: “I will sprinkle clean water upon you and ye shall be clean.” It refers us to the water mixed with the ashes of the red heifer, which was sprinkled with a hyssop on the unclean, typifying the precious blood of Christ in its cleansing power Hebrews 9:13-28; Hebrews 10:22. Thus, when the people of Israel believe on Him and look upon Him whom they pierced Zechariah 12:10, they will be cleansed. “In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness” Zechariah 13:1. Then follows the promise of the new birth of Israel. “A new heart will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you.” The stony heart is to be taken away and they will receive a heart of flesh. Our Lord had this passage in mind when He talked with Nicodemus about the new birth. Nicodemus, the teacher in Israel, was ignorant of the fact that this new birth for Israel is necessary in order to be in that coming kingdom and to receive its blessings. Therefore the Lord said to him, “If I have told you earthly things (about Israel and the new birth as the way into the kingdom) and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you of heavenly things?” (the heavenly blessings which follow His sacrificial death)."

--Arno C Gaebelein, Commentary on Ezekiel 36

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/ezekiel/36.htm

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
Wasn’t Israel cleansed from all her iniquities when Christ gave them a new covenant?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,214
1,980
113
Wasn’t Israel cleansed from all her iniquities when Christ gave them a new covenant?
Here's how I understand that, briefly.

Hebrews 7:22 [blb] states:

"By so much also, Jesus has become [perfect tense] the guarantee [/surety] of a better covenant." [first mention of "covenant" in Hebrews]

Then it's used in chpts 8:6,8-9,10; [10:16-29]; and in 12:24-26 where it says also "but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven," which [the bold in 12:24-26] I believe is referring to events yet future. Do you?
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
Here's how I understand that, briefly.

Hebrews 7:22 [blb] states:

"By so much also, Jesus has become [perfect tense] the guarantee [/surety] of a better covenant." [first mention of "covenant" in Hebrews]

Then it's used in chpts 8:6,8-9,10; [10:16-29]; and in 12:24-26 where it says also "but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven," which [the bold in 12:24-26] I believe is referring to events yet future. Do you?
I think that was AD70 but if I saw compelling that proved otherwise my stance could changed.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
490
97
28
I may have been thinking of Ezekiel 36:33 (not sure, will keep thinking... :unsure: ), but just wanted to mention that verse here:

"33 Thus saith the Lord God; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also..."

I would ask you this question: Can the Jews "atone for iniquity" themselves? It sounds like you believe that which is scary.

That's what the Rabbinic Jews (mainstream Judaism) believe today in Israel. They believe by turning from sin and repenting God will forgive you. They don't believe that a "blood sacrifice" atonement is needed.

To put it more plainly, they believe in works righteousness just like almost every other false religion in the world.

I guess for me it comes down to this: What is the gospel message?

I Corinthians 15: 3-4, For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.

Isaiah 53 verse 5 By "His stripes we are healed"... verse 6 "THE LORD HAS LAID ON HIM THE INIQUITY OF US ALL"

Hebrews 2: 17, Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, TO MAKE PROPITIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE.

Daniel's people. All people.

Six things were to be accomplished WITHIN the 70 weeks according to what Gabriel said in Dan 9: 24. In my view, Jesus accomplished all 6 during the 70th week exactly like Gabriel said they would be.

One of those 6 things is "THE ATONING FOR INIQUITY" which I have covered in the verses above. Dispensationalists have Jesus crucified OUTSIDE the 70 weeks. Not possible according to what Gabriel tells us in Daniel 9: 24.

Whether he realizes it or not, this forces the dispensationalist to believe in a works righteousness.

That the Jews can atone for their own sins through exile or something else. This contradicts everything the New Testament teaches and what Christians believe. It also contradicts Daniel's 70 weeks since everything in that prophecy is clearly tied to the Messiah.

There is no "ATONING FOR INIQUITY" apart from Jesus and the cross.
 
Nov 22, 2018
109
19
18
Biblical eschatology is not an absolute, essential of the faith. I have no problem with someone holding to a different end-times scenario as it effects not one iota on the doctrine of salvation (such as Calvinism does) or eternal security.

I would say that the idea that somehow man is going to usher in a utopian society through making the world a little better day by day was crushed by the World Wars, and watching AntiFa thugs and rioting blacks burn down cities does not tell me that society is getting better by any means.

At any rate, if one prefers to believe on non-essential over another my only reply is "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind" (Romans 14:5).

On occasion I'll present what I believe and offer liberty to another to present what he believes . . . and the jury (the readers) will decide for themselves.
Please consider this passage as your claim that "eschatology is not an absolute" disagrees with the Father's Word:

Revelation 22:18-19 I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: (19) and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

Only believers have a right to the tree of life so for that to be taken away clearly teaches a loss of salvation that soul has:

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.
 
Nov 22, 2018
109
19
18
So we see just from the Scripture that I have used in this post (and there are many more I did not use) that it is impossible to have a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. The last day happens after the 1,000 years and not before like the premillennialist claims. This current age we are living in consists of the 1,000 years and little season of Satan in Rev 20. This period in Revelation 20 is symbolic. It comprises the entire time from the cross to His return. Then the heavens and earth are dissolved the same day he returns, which is the last day, and both wicked and righteous are raised on that day and judged at the Great White Throne judgment.



Once again, just to remind everyone reading this, and thank you for reading, I have posted this because I believe amillennialism to be correct biblically and premillennialism to be a dangerous lie.



People are looking for a pre-trib rapture, a seven year treaty between antichrist and Israel and a millennial kingdom of Christ on earth reigning from Jerusalem that are never coming. The devil has tricked much of the church to look for the wrong thing.



I have heard Christians say, “I will just get right with the Lord if I miss the rapture since I got 7 years.” But sadly they are deceived.



The Scripture says that day “comes as a thief” and “let him who is just be just still and him who is wicked be wicked still”. There will be no second chance.



Our God is holy and a consuming fire. Thankfully He is also rich in mercy and grace.



I hope this post is a blessing to someone. God bless.
Please consider what the scriptures teach about "that day" your referring to that is often referred to as "the day of the Lord" in scripture:

**Link removed**
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,032
113
70
Illinois
Please consider this passage as your claim that "eschatology is not an absolute" disagrees with the Father's Word:

Revelation 22:18-19 I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: (19) and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

Only believers have a right to the tree of life so for that to be taken away clearly teaches a loss of salvation that soul has:

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.
So you think that disagreeing with a post-tribber or a mid-termer is going to damn me to hell? I thought we were to refrain from doubtful disputations. Oh, and what was that about every man being fully persuaded in his own mind?
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
I think one should "play out" other beliefs in the debate on eschatology.
See if it fits.

Investigate.

Some views have little to no merit.
My position is pretrib/ premil.
It fits.

Salvation needs to be left out of end times debate. It is a separate issue.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Without walking a few steps in the other viewpoints we have what is called " condemnation without investigation"
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,032
113
70
Illinois
Without walking a few steps in the other viewpoints we have what is called " condemnation without investigation"
I am thankful to our God that He has given us a Book that is the standard by which all else is judged. By handling the Word of truth we are able to discern truth from error without examining their various heresies. It a man's teaching stands up to the Word, Amen . . . it if does not . . . Oh Me!
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,632
113
@delirious are you pentecostal? I can tell you are arminian for sure, im just wondering, because most pentecostals I know are pre-trib premill, thats where I attend! Yet you are amil ?