Calvinism Critiqued

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Can you prove #1 using Scripture?
I did, if you read the whole thing you would have seen.

He predestined those he forsaw. According to his will

What was his will?

All who see and believe..

Scripture is a uniting book, You can not just take verses out of one small passage and make a docctrine out of them,, you have to use th ehwole book and many passages and then you see a picture as things come together
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Can you prove #1 using Scripture?
You wouldn't and can't believe it when it is shown you and you've been shown too often, you just don't believe the testimony of Scripture.

You, by your own admission jumped the fence into the flock, not going through the gate (John 10) while also circumnavigating election in Ephesians 1 and jumping in later in Ephesians 2 by your own admission and customized "gospel."

That's what you teach and what you've done. Shameful, but we were warned of these things.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Hi EG. I'm not sure how you arrived at the point that you don't think God is the one who makes the dead, which we were, alive. The KJV renders this performance by God as "quickening".
I do not know how you arrived at the thought I did not think God is the one who makes us alive who were dead. I am sorry you misunderstood me.

Eph 2: 1 and you has he made alive who were dead in tresspasses and sin.

The key words here are what made us dead.. Sin..

Since Sin caused our death. It must be taken care of.. Jesus justified us through redemption by paying for our sin, so we can be made alive. We can not be made alive while still dead in sin.. thats impossible.

A dead person cannot DO anything but be dead. This is why it HAS to be God ALONE that "quickens" us, or gives us a life through a new birth.

We didn't have ANYTHING to do with our physical conception and birth, so why would we think we would have ANYTHING to do with our Spiritual conception and birth?
We are dead because of sin, If the penalty of sin is not removed, we can not be made alive.

I am spiritually dead. I can not make myself alive.

But I am physically alive, As long as I can make choices I can chose to enter the narrow gate, Chose to humble myself and get on my knees and ask for Gods mercy, and chose to call out on the name of the lord to be saved

I can not make myself alive, because I can not forgve or pay for my own sins, But I can chose to entrust my eternity to the one who is able to do these things. In fact, God demands it if I want to be saved. otherwise, i will die in my sins. .
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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You wouldn't and can't believe it when it is shown you and you've been shown too often, you just don't believe the testimony of Scripture.

You, by your own admission jumped the fence into the flock, not going through the gate (John 10) while also circumnavigating election in Ephesians 1 and jumping in later in Ephesians 2 by your own admission and customized "gospel."

That's what you teach and what you've done. Shameful, but we were warned of these things.
Are you blaming me? God ordained me too.;)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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I did, if you read the whole thing you would have seen.

He predestined those he forsaw. According to his will

What was his will?

All who see and believe..

Scripture is a uniting book, You can not just take verses out of one small passage and make a docctrine out of them,, you have to use th ehwole book and many passages and then you see a picture as things come together
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Who did God foreknow and when did He foreknow them? Who is the Lord talking to here in Romans 8? The believers, is He not? Those who are already in Christ. When did He know them? By the way, this is not talking about salvation. It's talking about the future adoption, when we will take on the image of Jesus Christ. It is the redemption of Ephesians 1.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Now that ye are known of God. God knows you at salvation. God knows you when you call upon His son and He in turn places His seal, His Holy Spirit in you.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The Lord knows those that are His by the Holy Spirit He has placed within each believer. In order to become a believer, one must hear the gospel. The second thing is to believe the gospel. The third thing that comes is the sealing of the Holy Spirit.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Who did God foreknow and when did He foreknow them? Who is the Lord talking to here in Romans 8? The believers, is He not? Those who are already in Christ. When did He know them? By the way, this is not talking about salvation. It's talking about the future adoption, when we will take on the image of Jesus Christ. It is the redemption of Ephesians 1.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Now that ye are known of God. God knows you at salvation. God knows you when you call upon His son and He in turn places His seal, His Holy Spirit in you.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The Lord knows those that are His by the Holy Spirit He has placed within each believer. In order to become a believer, one must hear the gospel. The second thing is to believe the gospel. The third thing that comes is the sealing of the Holy Spirit.
As showed in eph 1.. He chose based on his will..that whoever hear and believes recieved all th eblessings in Christ jesus, and are conformed to his image
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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I do not know how you arrived at the thought I did not think God is the one who makes us alive who were dead. I am sorry you misunderstood me.

Eph 2: 1 and you has he made alive who were dead in tresspasses and sin.

The key words here are what made us dead.. Sin..

Since Sin caused our death. It must be taken care of.. Jesus justified us through redemption by paying for our sin, so we can be made alive. We can not be made alive while still dead in sin.. thats impossible.



We are dead because of sin, If the penalty of sin is not removed, we can not be made alive.

I am spiritually dead. I can not make myself alive.

But I am physically alive, As long as I can make choices I can chose to enter the narrow gate, Chose to humble myself and get on my knees and ask for Gods mercy, and chose to call out on the name of the lord to be saved

I can not make myself alive, because I can not forgve or pay for my own sins, But I can chose to entrust my eternity to the one who is able to do these things. In fact, God demands it if I want to be saved. otherwise, i will die in my sins. .
Gotta disagree with some of this.

We aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because are sinners. There is a distinction there. We were dead because we are sinners. And as such we sin. The fact that we were dead, because we were sinners remains. And therefore being dead, we CANNOT in our physical flesh choose to born ourself.

Scripture says we are not even capable of understanding the Gospel in our flesh.

I mean, you say you are spiritually dead and cannot make yourself alive, and then in the very next breath say that you can, in your flesh, choose to make yourself alive by entering the Narrow Gate.

This might be the final barrier of ourself we have to yield to Jesus. It's a tough one brother. But if we could choose Him, without God quickening us, then we can also choose to not sin BEFORE we are born again. And we know that can't happen.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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As showed in eph 1.. He chose based on his will..that whoever hear and believes recieved all th eblessings in Christ jesus, and are conformed to his image
Ephesians 1 has nothing to do with personal salvation, but the heavenly blessings that are in Christ. The heavenly blessings in Christ is what God chose before the foundation of the world to be given to those who would be found in Christ. No one was in Christ or known to be in Christ before the foundation of the world. It's just not there.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Gotta disagree with some of this.

We aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because are sinners. There is a distinction there. We were dead because we are sinners. And as such we sin. The fact that we were dead, because we were sinners remains. And therefore being dead, we CANNOT in our physical flesh choose to born ourself.

Scripture says we are not even capable of understanding the Gospel in our flesh.

I mean, you say you are spiritually dead and cannot make yourself alive, and then in the very next breath say that you can, in your flesh, choose to make yourself alive by entering the Narrow Gate.

This might be the final barrier of ourself we have to yield to Jesus. It's a tough one brother. But if we could choose Him, without God quickening us, then we can also choose to not sin BEFORE we are born again. And we know that can't happen.
I have to disagree with this

1. The penalty of sin is death, The GIFT of God is eternal life

2. Paul says that when we break the law. We suffer the curse, the curse of the law is death

3. Even adam was told. In th emoment you disobey me (sin) you will die (he dies spiritually the moment he ate of the fruit)

I sin because I chose to serve self.. I can not do good because I have no capacity to love others. Because I can not love until God loves me first.

But that is no excuse,

If I sin, the penalty is death.

Imagine walking in front of God and saying you do not deserve hell because you did not sin much, you were not like the sinners etc etc. Only to Have God show you every sin you have ever cimmited, Each sin having the death penalty as punishment.

Thats the gospel. No matter how good you are. You still deserve death, Because ALL have sinned and fall short.

Justification MUST occure, if it does not, we remain dead in sin.

Jutification means we are declaired innocent of the crimes we are accused of. And thus the penalty of those crimes are removed.

There are two ways to be justifed

Be proven innocent of the crimes we are accused of (we can not be justified this way, because we are guilty)

Through redemption (an innocent pays the debt we owe) which is what Jesus die. As jesus said on the cross It is finished (literally paid in full)

The penaltyy was paid. But God will not just give it to us.. He desires to have a relation ship with us, they he desires us to WANT his gift. If we do not want his gift, his gift is useless, Plus his justice would not allow it anyway.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Ephesians 1 has nothing to do with personal salvation, but the heavenly blessings that are in Christ. The heavenly blessings in Christ is what God chose before the foundation of the world to be given to those who would be found in Christ. No one was in Christ or known to be in Christ before the foundation of the world. It's just not there.
Yes this is right

But eph 1 told us WHY we were chosen to receve those things.

You cannot remove vs 13 - 14 from the passage.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Yes this is right

But eph 1 told us WHY we were chosen to receve those things.

You cannot remove vs 13 - 14 from the passage.
Yes, verse 13-14 explains how and when one gets in Christ. And I'll add verse 13.

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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From the womb, not before the womb. That is my point. Read it again.
From the womb, not before the womb. That is my point. Read it again.
Here is God disputing what you post. Verse 10.

God has used eclipses to condemn countries. Every time an eclipse has passed from one side to another that country diminished greatly. Think about the fact that as God stated knowing the end from the begining that at creation he set the moon in a particular orbit to have those eclipses happen at the correct time. This country was in the colonial and early states a mostly Christian country. It now only has a splinter of Christians left. In 2024 another eclipse crossing from northeast to southwest crossing 7 cities named Salem will occur. Consider God's foreknowledge to have that eclipse do that. It places 2 eclipses making an X on the USA. Double condemnation!!

Isaiah 46 NIV
3 “Listen to me, you descendants of Jacob,
all the remnant of the people of Israel,
you whom I have upheld since your birth,
and have carried since you were born.
4 Even to your old age and gray hairs
I am he, I am he who will sustain you.
I have made you and I will carry you;
I will sustain you and I will rescue you.
5 “With whom will you compare me or count me equal?
To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?
6 Some pour out gold from their bags
and weigh out silver on the scales;
they hire a goldsmith to make it into a god,
and they bow down and worship it.
7 They lift it to their shoulders and carry it;
they set it up in its place, and there it stands.
From that spot it cannot move.
Even though someone cries out to it, it cannot answer;
it cannot save them from their troubles.
8 “Remember this, keep it in mind,
take it to heart, you rebels.
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Yet many egyptans left with Moses, All through the OT, God chose many people from gentile nations to be his people. king davids grandmother was a gentile.

The people of canaan WERE gods people. God told abraham, Your family will not enter for 400 years. Because their SIN has not yet been completed.

What sin was he talking about? THE SIN OF UNBELIEF! (They arived toa state when nothing God did would cause them to repent. They were lost in pride and unbelief.)

God sent Jonah to a gentile city, HATED by the jews because of what they did, why? BECAUSE THEY WERE GODS PEOPLE And what happened? THEY CHOSE TO REPENT and were saved)

Sorry my friend. This does not support you case.
Try reaching out to Muslims. They will make you a head shorter if you don't convert to Islam. That was and is how the religion grew.
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
Known murder?
Like Moses, or David, or Solomon, or does attempted murder also count? I would say so. Peter has got to go as well. The Bible just got to be a shorter read.
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
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Total depravity means we can not do good.

It DOES NOT mean, we can not know we are evil and realise in humility we need saved, allowing God to show us the way and chosewhat needs to happen to save us...
You do not have correct definition of this doctrine. Mine is correct.
It means that we are as bad off as we can be, not that we ARE as bad as we can be. It is how God looks at the natural man, not how we see ourselves.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
I was not speaking of you, or even thinking of you........don't go off on a wrong track.......

Since Calvin began his ministry, and the tulip thingy, there have been followers, and THEY identified themselves as Calvinists. Not me. And it is to this I have been directing my attention. And, I have to wonder why the heart on the sleeve reaction? Is saying that people identify themselves as followers/disciples of Calvin an accusation? If so, then they are accusing themselves.

I do not think you are understanding................my POINT is, do not identify one's self as a follower/disciple of Calvin, identify one's self as a follower/disciple of Christ. AND, it is OK to say "I'm a Christian (disciple of Christ) that believes in predestination."

There is nothing wrong with that.................I don't care if someone believes in predestination. I do not, I believe in free will.

What I do care about is when people raise up Calvin and sing his praises..........and identify themselves as one of his followers/disciples and .................. RIGHT OVER THERE stands Jesus Christ .................. and He be like, "Seriously?"

Don't follow the created, follow the Creator.........

Until today, I did not even know you believed in predestination. If you do, that is surely your right. But I also have the right to disagree.............a God given, precious gift right called free will.

You surely changed from a loving Christian attitude to the one portrayed in the quote above rather easily did you not? And, you did so in error, as I was not even speaking to or of you................

And, this idea that you and others are somehow SUPERIOR to all other men is not Christ like whatsoever........in my opinion.
I pray that you and they receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit and are able to see Scripture through spiritual eyes.

Anyway, given that you went waaayyyyy out into left field on this one............I'll leave you to it...........and you can cut out the anti christ bit.............You are sure quick to belittle, berate, and condemn those who disagree with you Brother..........hmm, and someone said I was a liar for saying people do that.

Here ya go! Didn't realize John Calvin was actually quoted by King Jimmy, but here goes:

Matthew 23
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Now why is this? Is it because of man's pride, or ego? Or, more like "Walter Ego", that keeps a man so hesitant in its relentless attacks upon one's spirit? Browbeatings! Saying: "I can't enter in!" "NEITHER, can you!" "Or, YOU, either!" "Just REMAIN a "good sheep" will ya?"

Wished I had a nickel, for every time I heard that betweenst my ears, for the past 30 years er so! I could have retired way earlier! :cool:

Matthew 23
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.


And here Jesus...Oops? Did I say that out loud? :p I meant John Calvin is talking about himself:

Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Here, is where Jesus...DANGIT?....did it again! :p I meant John Calvin put forth his John Calvin 2.0 doctrine, as I have learned to calls it:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


And here, John Calvin is addressing those who were seduced/beguiled, by the spirit of anti christ, and, oppressed by sons of darkness, yet, found the "saving grace" in Calvin. Yet? Contented? Never picked up their cross!



23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



As you can see? I'm a faithful disciple of John Calvin!.....NOT!!!! :p
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You do not have correct definition of this doctrine. Mine is correct.
It means that we are as bad off as we can be, not that we ARE as bad as we can be. It is how God looks at the natural man, not how we see ourselves.
You have no idea what I said, Proven by your comment. Please try again, You can not say i am wrong, when you do not even understand what I said, I did not insinuate either of these two ideas,

As for seeing truth, About ourselves. Romans 1 would be your guide, It says we can know.. and for this reason, we have no excuse.
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
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You have no idea what I said, Proven by your comment. Please try again, You can not say i am wrong, when you do not even understand what I said, I did not insinuate either of these two ideas,

As for seeing truth, About ourselves. Romans 1 would be your guide, It says we can know.. and for this reason, we have no excuse.
I think you might be eternally grateful that we do not know one another. I know I am.:)
 
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You may not say it, That does not make it true

Satan made a lie about God. The whole message of the gospel of the cross is to prove satan a liar and a theif.

And God DOES care what people and the angels think, all we have to do is read the word and we can see that.

God can not demand we love as he loved, and not love himself.

The first example I gave does not prove that fathers love, because he for no reason whatsoever allowed a child of his to rot in jail.. without even giving them a chance. Which if one looks at it, Buys into satans lie.



Love would chose to try to save ALL OF THEM, not just SOME OF THEM, Love would set aside your own needs and rights to make sure everyone has a chance, Love sacrifices all, for the sake of all. And then leave the decision to the people you love. And if they say no, Its on them You did all you could. Like aby father would do for ANY of their children (if they did not. What kind of father are they?)

Love does not allow only a selct group of people. While rejecting everyone else without giving them a chance.

So yes, It does not show true love .



God created us all, thus in reality we are all his offspring,, But we rebelled and because of our rebellion we are cut off and a barrier is placed between us.

True love pays the price to remove this barrier, and then offers that offering of love to each and every one of those he created. Allowing them to make a choice (without choice, there can be no love)

And this is what God did

He paid the price’’then told his offrpring (all of them) Believe in me, EEnter through me and me only, Enter through the narrow gate, and I will remove the barrier and give you life (eternal life)

Chose not to do these things, then suffer the fate you deserved in the first place. But my love stands for all eternity, Because I offered you the same gift I offered everyone else.
My friend, I am done with this with you. You are starting with man and reasoning up to God. I start with God and reason down to man. I have shown you our view and you will not accept it. Thanks for the conversation my friend.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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My friend, I am done with this with you. You are starting with man and reasoning up to God. I start with God and reason down to man. I have shown you our view and you will not accept it. Thanks for the conversation my friend.
Well, you were quite patient with "free willy choose yourself into heaven" guy. He won't listen to Scripture bro.