The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

foolishone · Dec 3, 2018

No need to apologize. I started in my walk with the Lord believing what I was taught by pretrib pastors. As I got into the word myself I was shown by the Spirit ( who reveals scripture ) things that did not agree with them. I became a mid way triber. But as years went on I realized these preachers also were teaching what they were taught by other man in the bible colleges. Scripture not man brought me to post trib belief.
I see that people confuse the wrath of God with the Trib. You have been a hoot and I love that you took the time to put the Word out there but you know as I know that this, like some other topics, will not be agreed upon until the bulls come home for milking.
I say be ready at all times for the coming of our Lord. I also learned to let scripture interpret scripture. God bless you, you tried.

The important thing is are you saved and are you helping to bring in the harvest. Whoops silly me! Even that we seem to all disagree on. Again until that bulls come home to be milked. Oh how the world must see us

Absolutely · Dec 3, 2018

foolishone said:

No need to apologize. I started in my walk with the Lord believing what I was taught by pretrib pastors. As I got into the word myself I was shown by the Spirit ( who reveals scripture ) things that did not agree with them. I became a mid way triber. But as years went on I realized these preachers also were teaching what they were taught by other man in the bible colleges. Scripture not man brought me to post trib belief.
I see that people confuse the wrath of God with the Trib. You have been a hoot and I love that you took the time to put the Word out there but you know as I know that this, like some other topics, will not be agreed upon until the bulls come home for milking.
I say be ready at all times for the coming of our Lord. I also learned to let scripture interpret scripture. God bless you, you tried.

The important thing is are you saved and are you helping to bring in the harvest. Whoops silly me! Even that we seem to all disagree on. Again until that bulls come home to be milked. Oh how the world must see us

Postrib is a belief. Provide a single verse supporting postrib rapture.You say you are a bible student and well versed.
Surely you have one verse??

calledoutones777 · Dec 3, 2018

Absolutely said:

His NAME is his PURPOSE.. For we cannot be SAVED unless we go through his NAME, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. John 10:1-5
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. John 10:25-30 YAHOSHUA answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

YAHOSHUA, is the ONLY NAME that is carrying the THREE NAMES of the THREE WITNESSES that are NEEDED to BEAR RECORD to My NAME, saith YAHOSHUA. I AM YAHOSHUA, whose name is carrying the NAMES of My 'FATHER" who is "YAH" as in YAHOVEH/YAHUVEH, the "WORD" who i AM, "YOSHUA" who is also the SON, as well as the "HOLY SPIRIT" which is SIGNIFIED by the "AH" that is also in My FATHER' NAME, which is "YAH" as in YAHOVEH/YAHUVEH. Which is also CARRYING the "SACRED LETTERS" of My FATHER'S "SACRED NAME" Which is "YHVH", which is pronouced "YAHVEH", which is also showing you the "YHVH", as in Y a H o V e H / Y a H u V e H / Y a H V e H..

Remembering My FATHER had MANY NAMES, and so does LUCIFER. This is WHY, it is ONLY THROUGH MY NAME, can you be SAVED. For My FATHER nor My MOTHER can help you with this. For I HAVE BEEN GIVEN the "KEY" to the KINGDOM, saith YAHOSHUA, who is the Christ meaning the ANOINTED ONE, unto YOU, and unto the JEWS, that did not RECEIVE ME, when I CAME UNTO THEM, I AM, MESSIAH, have you not READ? Fulfiling the FATHER Scriptures. John 10:1-5

Many have called this the "TRINITY" but I have called them the THREE WITNESSES that are NEEDED to BEAR RECORD in HEAVEN as well as in EARTH. For even the DEMONS that are WITHIN THIS EARTH, KNOWS MY NAME, saith YAHOSHUA, and they TREMBLE.

For I tell you this truth this day.. If My FATHER is BEARING RECORD to My NAME. His "WORD" is "GREATER" then MAN'S, and Yes, EVEN YOURS, saith YAHOSHUA, have you not READ? Ful;filling the FATHER Scriptures... 1 John 5:7-13 FOR THERE ARE “THREE" WITNESSES THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE “FATHER", THE “WORD", and THE “HOLY SPIRIT": AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the “SPIRIT", and the “WATER" and the “BLOOD": and these THREE all AGREE in “ONE. If we receive the WITNESS of MEN, the “WITNESS" of the FATHER is GREATER: for this is the witness of the FATHER WHICH “HE” HATH “TESTIFIED” of His “SON”. He that believeth on the Son of the FATHER HATH THE “WITNESS” IN “HIMSELF”: he that believeth NOT THE FATHER HATH MADE “HIM”, [meaning the FATHER] A “LIAR"; because he believeth not the RECORD THAT THE FATHER GAVE HIS “SON". AND THIS IS THE “RECORD" THAT THE FATHER HATH GIVEN TO US “ETERNAL LIFE", AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS “SON”. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of the FATHER hath not life. These things have I written unto you that BELIEVE ON THE “NAME" OF THE “SON" of the FATHER; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE “ETERNAL LIFE", and that ye may believe on the name of the “SON” of the FATHER.

Shalom

calledoutones777 · Dec 3, 2018

foolishone said:

A Prophetic word unto you.. My FATHER WORDS are not to come to make you feel good. For they are as SHARP as a TWO EDGE SWORD... There is no RAPTURE, for YAHOSHUA NEVER PROMISED to do that. This iwas the LIES of JESUS/YESHUA, in whom they had REPLACED MY SAVING NAME WITH, throughout My FATHER'S Holy Scribes/Scriptures, when I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE. I PRAYED to MY FATHER NOT TO TAKE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD, saith YAHOSHUA, who is the Christ unto the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. John 17:6-9 I HAVE MANIFESTED "THY NAME" unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. John 17:15-20 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

My FATHER is ACTUALLY AGAINST THOSE who TEACH his children to "FLY" to SAVE THEIR SOUL, have you not READ? Saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ unto the GENTILE NATIONS, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. Ezkiel 13:20-23 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, eventhe souls that ye hunt to make them fly. Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Shalom

calledoutones777 · Dec 3, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

A Prophetic word unto you.. I AM not saying this the FATHER'S WORDS are, with SCRIPTURES FOLLOWING. So your not listening to Me, your LISTENING TO YOUR CREATOR THROUGH WHAT HE HAS LEFT US, which is His WORDS. I AM ONLY A MOUTH PIECE FOR HIM TO USE, have you not read? fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Revelation 22:16-17 I YAHOSHUA HAVE SENT MINE “ANGEL", [which means a messenger] TO TESTIFY UNTO YOU THESE THINGS IN THE “CHURCHES”. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. AND THE “SPIRIT”, [who I AM, saith YAHOSHUA] and the “BRIDE” [who she is, who is speaking to you now] SAY COME. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This is still your FREE WILL TEST TO CHOOSE WHO YOU WILL SERVE, but your test is coming unto an end, this is why I was sent at this time, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. YOSHUA/OSHUA/Joshua 24:13-15 And I have given you a land for which ye did not labour, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which ye planted not do ye eat. Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
2 John 1:1-2 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth. For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever. 2 John 1:9-13 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not “the Father”. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Father’s speed: For he that biddeth him “GOD” speed is partaker of his evil deeds. Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, AND SPEAK FACE TO FACE, that our joy may be full. “THE CHILDREN OF THY ELECT SISTER GREET THEE. Amen.

Shalom

calledoutones777 · Dec 3, 2018

Absolutely said:

A PROPHETIC WORD UNTO YOUR Statement... My NAME saith YAHOSHUA, is the ROAD that MANY WILL NOT FIND, saith YAHOSHUA. For they are ONLY MAKING YOU TO THINK that you know Me, but you truly do not. For I AM NOT JESUS/Yeshua, in whom they had REPLACED MY SAVING NAME WITH, throughout My FATHER'S Holy Scribes/Scriptures, when I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE. I AM NOT HIM, and My FATHER is not A GOD. He is your CREATOR in whom we call ABBA, and not GOD, but ABBA, which means FATHER.

I AM YAHOSHUA, whose NAME is SHOWING YOU THE NAMES of My “FATHER” who is “YAH” as in YAHOVEH/YAHUVEH, the “WORD” who I AM, “YOSHUA” who is also the son, as well as the “HOLY SPIRIT” which is SIGNIFIED by the “AH” that is also in My FATHER’S NAME which is “YAH” as in YAHOVEH/YAHUVEH. Which is also carrying the “SACRED LETTERS” of My FATHER’S “SACRED NAME” which is “YHVH”, not YHWH. The “YHVH” which is pronounced “YAHVEH”. which is also showing you the “YHVH”, as in Y a H o V e H / Y a H u V e H/ Y a H V e H.

I have been coming unto you many times, now, for I chasten those I love, but not for long, saith YAHOSHUA. Do not ALLOW YOURSELF to AWAKEN IN A PLACE YOU HAVE NO IDEA, WHEN, WHERE, or HOW YOU GOT THERE, saith YAHOSHUA. For you have been WARNED MANY TIMES, and not you will be HELD ACCOUNTABLE. For this has been your VISITATION, saith YAHOSHUA, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. Luke 19:40-44 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

For it would have been BETTER FOR YOU NOT TO HAVE HEARD THESE TRUTHS. Then to have HEARD THEM, then TURN from them as a DOG RETURNS TO THERE OWN VOMIT AGAIN, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ unto YOU, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. 2 Peter 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour YAHOSHUA Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Shalom

calledoutones777 · Dec 3, 2018

Absolutely said:

A PROPHETIC WORD... Nothing should be TAUGHT without SCRIPTURES FOLLOWING WHAT THEY ARE SAYING, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of the FATHER, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of the FATHER may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

This is why I have been PREPARED, not by MAN, but My the FATHER through YAHOSHUA'S SPIRIT, fulfilling the Father Scriptures.. 2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ YAHOSHUA.

I have sent unto you, not only a Prophetess but also My BRIDE, saith YAHOSHUA, listen to My WORDS, for it is I that is with her, as I had promised, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures..Revelation 22:16-17 I YAHOSHUA HAVE SENT MINE “ANGEL", [which means a messenger] TO TESTIFY UNTO YOU THESE THINGS IN THE “CHURCHES”. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. AND THE “SPIRIT”, [who I AM, saith YAHOSHUA] and the “BRIDE” [who she is, who is speaking to you now] SAY COME. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

For she is bringing the SECRETS and MYSTERIES, that I had promised to bring unto you, have you not READ? Saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ, unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS, and unto the JEWS, that did not RECEIVE ME, when I CAME UNTO THEM, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures... Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord 'thy Father’ will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints. Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the ‘MYSTERY’, which from the ‘BEGINNING’ of the world hath been hid in ‘the Father’, who “CREATED’ all things by Yahoshua Christ.

For this is your VISITATION that I have brought unto you, through her, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Luke 19:40-44 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Shalom

foolishone · Dec 3, 2018

Absolutely said:

Post trib is a doctrine, pre trib is a doctrine, mid trib is a doctrine. There is not a single verse there are many. You can start with matthew 24. Read revelations which talks of the tribe, rapture and then the wrath of God at the 7th seal. Jesus statements agree with that part. Taking one verse to make a doctrine is impossible. Let scripture interpret scripture. I did not say I am a bible student and well versed. Those words sound like boasting. I shared my experience in reading the bible as time has gone on and what I have come to believe as the Spirit reveals. I will never be well versed no matter how many times I read the bible for it shows me more and more every day. It is a living book. M has given scripture.
Long time ago I was here and left because of the foolish arguing that got heated over certain topic. It was a disgrace to the body of Christ when unbelievers would peek in. I'm back and all I can say is Jesus wants us to be ready at all times for when he comes. He gave signs of those times also in matthew 24.
Hey if the rapture happens before trib. not a problem for believers washed in the blood. It will be a pleasant surprise for us post tribers. If you are still here for the trib. before the wrath of God ( 7th seal ) and you believed pre trib not a problem if your washed in the blood. You will just have a not pleasant surprise.
Like I said this can be argued until the bulls come home for milking.
Just please try not to argue in a way that dishonors God. Out siders are watching and walking away from Christ because of the behavior of the church.

presidente · Dec 3, 2018

Absolutely said:

I have walked in pre-trib shoes before. I grew up that way, and eventually just let it go because I couldn't find any support for it in the Bible. I have read Revelation 14, and I do not see support for pre-trib in there either.

Instead of boasting about how great pre-trib is and demeaning post-trib, it would be helpful if you would deal with the scriptures actually mentioned. I looked back at other pages of the thread and found a brief reference from you about Revelation 14, but not any detail as to why you think this proves pre-trib. Honestly, I was using control F for the number 14 when I did that.

Like I said in a previous post, the rapture happens at the parousia according to I Thessalonians 4:15. The man of sin is destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's parousia (coming) in II Thessalonians 2:8.

That is a problem for pre-trib. Pre-trib has the rapture happening 7 years before the second coming. Then pre-trib has the beast (presumably the man of sin) taking over and persecuting the saints AFTER the rapture. Well, the rapture occurs at the parousia, and the man of sin is destroyed at the parousia.

How can pre-trib deal with this? What do you have, two parousia? Isn't that just an outlandish interpretation of scripture which just speaks of one more parousia of Christ? Or does the parousia happen for seven years? If so, you either have to have Jesus up in the sky for seven years, or you turn 'parousia' into something nearly as allegorical as what the amils do with it.

The main thing that turned me off from pre-trib is just not finding any verses in the Bible that show the rapture happening before the tribulation, before Jesus' comes back. A straightforward plain sense reading puts both events at the same time, or the rapture immediately upon Christ's return as He's descending.

Then you look at pre-trib arguments for putting the rapture in Revelation. John being told 'come up hither' is supposed to signify the rapture of the church? Talk about an allegorical interpretation that goes against the plain sense! And pre-tribbers argue for their interpretations based on literal plain sense interpretations.

The other one is 'not appointed unto wrath', which in context says we are not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Why would the saints in Revelation be under God's wrath? It is pretty clear that they are saved. So that argument doesn't work either.

I just don't see any reason to even think of pre-trib unless you are taught it. It took a few people to cook it up a hundred or so years ago. Maybe there was one confused guy in the 300's who had some sort of pre-tribby type thinking. But there is no way to get it just from reading the Bible otherwise. You have to be taught the theory. Arguments from pre-trib preachers are usually just showing how they can somehow reinterpret passages through the pre-trib theory which they already hold to, and act like they prove pre-trib. Where is the onramp to the circular highway of pre-trib reasoning?

The one exception, I suppose, would be to redefine the apostasia to mean the rapture. That seems to be a fairly recent approach, but so is pre-trib.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 3, 2018

calledoutones777 said:

A Prophetic word unto you.. I AM not saying this the FATHER'S WORDS are, with SCRIPTURES FOLLOWING. So your not listening to Me, your LISTENING TO YOUR CREATOR THROUGH WHAT HE HAS LEFT US, which is His WORDS. I AM ONLY A MOUTH PIECE FOR HIM TO USE, have you not read? fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Revelation 22:16-17 I YAHOSHUA HAVE SENT MINE “ANGEL", [which means a messenger] TO TESTIFY UNTO YOU THESE THINGS IN THE “CHURCHES”. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. AND THE “SPIRIT”, [who I AM, saith YAHOSHUA] and the “BRIDE” [who she is, who is speaking to you now] SAY COME. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This is still your FREE WILL TEST TO CHOOSE WHO YOU WILL SERVE, but your test is coming unto an end, this is why I was sent at this time, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. YOSHUA/OSHUA/Joshua 24:13-15 And I have given you a land for which ye did not labour, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which ye planted not do ye eat. Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
2 John 1:1-2 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth. For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever. 2 John 1:9-13 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not “the Father”. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Father’s speed: For he that biddeth him “GOD” speed is partaker of his evil deeds. Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, AND SPEAK FACE TO FACE, that our joy may be full. “THE CHILDREN OF THY ELECT SISTER GREET THEE. Amen.

Shalom

Um No, The word is not saying if I do not believe in Post Trib I will go to hell.
The gospel of God is not believe in post trib rapture and I will give you eternal life.

But thanks, You just showed me if you can not understand this fundamental truth, you probably do not have some of the other fundamentals right either. So I can move on.

foolishone · Dec 3, 2018

calledoutones777 said:

A Prophetic word unto you.. My FATHER WORDS are not to come to make you feel good. For they are as SHARP as a TWO EDGE SWORD... There is no RAPTURE, for YAHOSHUA NEVER PROMISED to do that. This iwas the LIES of JESUS/YESHUA, in whom they had REPLACED MY SAVING NAME WITH, throughout My FATHER'S Holy Scribes/Scriptures, when I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE. I PRAYED to MY FATHER NOT TO TAKE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD, saith YAHOSHUA, who is the Christ unto the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. John 17:6-9 I HAVE MANIFESTED "THY NAME" unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. John 17:15-20 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

My FATHER is ACTUALLY AGAINST THOSE who TEACH his children to "FLY" to SAVE THEIR SOUL, have you not READ? Saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ unto the GENTILE NATIONS, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. Ezkiel 13:20-23 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, eventhe souls that ye hunt to make them fly. Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Shalom

oh dear another ranter. I can't make sense of what you say. The rapture has nothing to do with fly to save your souls. My soul is saved before I die or the rapture through the gift of God, Yeshua's blood through faith by the grace of God.
I believe we will be here for the Trib. and raptured before the wrath of God. Read Jesus words in matthew 24. Rapture is a word we use for snatching away. It has nothing to do with my salvation.

presidente · Dec 3, 2018

Absolutely said:

I'm not sure about that. But a lot of post-tribbers-- as opposed to historic pre-mil-- are probably from pretrib backgrounds who begin to see the proverbial emporer has no clothes. They study the issue out and find out there isn't a single verse that puts the rapture before the tribulation and actual scriptural statements that shows that it occurs at the coming of Jesus. Since some of these folks grew up hearing the weak pre-trib arguments that pre-tribbers try to making to separate the rapture and the coming of Christ, some of them focus on pre-trib arguments.

I have already shown you scripture that shows that the rapture occurs at the parousia. You need to present a case for two parousia or for a seven year long parousia. The use of parousia in I Thessalonians 4:15 and the surrounding context about the rapture disproves pre-trib otherwise.

Uh... first of all, no we don't. We just need scripture that shows the rapture occurs when Jesus comes back, not seven years before, reasonable scripture to indicate that Jesus comes back for His church one time.

But there is actually a passage in Matthew 24 about the 'great tribulation' that tells of the gathering of the elect 'after the tribulation of those days.' So there you have it.

I am not sure what you mean about riderless horses or what that has to do with post-trib. They say that during the 'parousia' of a Roman official, the people would go out and have a processing bringing the important leader into town. We rise and return with Christ. The difference between this and pre-trib is you think you spend sevel years up there.

Let me ask you. Where do pre-tribbers think the saints will be when the earth is being destroyed by fire at the end of the thousand years? Heaven maybe? Why would the location be different under a post-trib scenario. Whether we go to heaven where the rooms prepared for us are, or if they descend to the New Earth with the New Jerusalem (which also seems to depict or be the bride), it's all good.

What I notice is that pre-tribbers uses verses that are two or three steps of reasoning away from their conclusion, instead of scriptures that are direct. They have to reason that 'not appointed unto wrath'-- ripped out of context-- somehow is against the idea of the church being here during the tribulation. What are those tribulational saints? Chopped liver? Are they appointed unto wrath instead of obtaining salvation through Christ? That's not right.

Then pre-tribbers argue based off of 'I go to prepare a place for you' as if the only way that could possibly be fulfilled is if the resurrection and rapture takes place before Jesus comes back, though there are scriptures that show this occurs at the parousia.

Why don't we just go with what the Bible actually clearly teaches instead of these weak elaborate arguments that require lots of assumptions?

eternally-gratefull · Dec 3, 2018

presidente said:

Actually this is not likely. If you look at scripture. In all pre-mill senerious. Post mill has the LEAST scripture backing its theories than all the rest

Then you take the three points we made which show Post trib highly unlikey (funny how no post tribber has even responded to those things) and you see post trib is the leas likely senerio next to maybe amill

presidente · Dec 3, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

I am responding to my alerts. I haven't seen those three points unless I responded to them already. Do you have a message number for them?

Also, could you respond to some of the Biblical reasons I am post-trib.

I Thessalonians 4:15 sets the timing of the rapture at the parousia of Christ. I Thessanians 2:8 puts the destruction of the man of sin at the brightness of the Lord's coming.

If pre-trib is right, then the man of sin is destroyed before the tribulation starts? How does I Thes. 4:15 reconcile with pre-trib? Do you have a seven year 'parousia'? Would our Lord have to be visibly slowly returning for seven years if this were the case? If 'parousia' refers to a time period, isn't that a loose allegorical use like the amils use?

I Corinthians 15 says the dead are made alive 'at His coming', not seven years before His coming.

Then there is II Thessalonians 1, which has Christ returning while the church is still here. It doesn't say He goes back up. When He returns, He executes judgment on them that believe not, when He comes to be glorified in the saints.

This sounds pretty neat and clean-- like one return which involves giving relief to the church and judgment on those who reject God. II Thessalonians 2 continues on and should be interpreted in the light of chapter 1.

I cannot find one single verse or passage that sets the rapture before the tribulation. That's the main reason I decided I wasn't pre-trib. Then I began to see scriptures that indicate that the rapture occurs at the parousia-- as opposed to 7 years before it under pre-trib.

Could you reconcile those verses with pre-trib? Explain how they can work with pre-trib, and then show me scripture that indicates the timing of the rapture is pre-trib. Those are two weaknesses I see with pre-trib-- the Bible doesn't teach it and it contradicts scripture (or at the least is uber difficult to reconcile.) Why believe in it? Other than wanting to not believe suffering is coming, I do not see the appeal.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 3, 2018

presidente said:

Post # 31 and Post # 35

Can't be post trib, See post # 31, This would mean we know the hour the lord returns. Also see post # 35, If this is post trib, Jesus has no one left to rule

The rapture is God catching us in the sky.

His return is boots on ground,

2 Different events, Why do I say this? Again, post 35. which answers these questions.

Which coming, His rapture, or his return to earth? Again, 2 different events. If Jesus rapturs us at his second advent, there is no one alive to enter the thousand year reign (again post 35)

How can we delivered fro the wrath to come, and yet participate fully in the wrath of God immediately following his return to earh as king. Postrib has us not delievered from wrath, but participating fully on Gods wrath on mankind

All should be translated in light of the things in Post 31 and 35. Because post trib is impossible. Even 1 thess 1 refutes post trib, because it has us participating in Gods wrath.

Maybe you can not find it because you do not want to? I am just asking because I can find many verses that would technically support all 3, if taken alone by themselves.. So saying you can find none already puts up a red flag Others find many, even if they disagree, that technically would support it. Yet you say non, what makes you different?

I just did, Will you see is the question (Not saying you must agree, but saying you must see why I can not see what you see.)

PennEd · Dec 3, 2018

Genesis 18:22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord. 23 And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

Of course we know the answer. God's wrath is NOT for His Children. In fact, the Angels were not ALLOWED to destroy Sodom & Gomorrah UNTIL they forcibly removed Lot.

We are indeed going to have hardships and persecution. BUT those are going to come from the WORLD, NOT God.

God's wrath in Revelation is poured out on the ungodly that reject Jesus Christ. He is NOT going to pour out His WRATH on those that are ALREADY His Children.

Now those that BECOME His Children in the Great Tribulation is another matter. They may get beheaded, and have tribulations, but not even sure THEY will experience the WRATH of God.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 3, 2018

PennEd said:

Genesis 18:22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord. 23 And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

Of course we know the answer. God's wrath is NOT for His Children. In fact, the Angels were not ALLOWED to destroy Sodom & Gomorrah UNTIL they forcibly removed Lot.

We are indeed going to have hardships and persecution. BUT those are going to come from the WORLD, NOT God.

God's wrath in Revelation is poured out on the ungodly that reject Jesus Christ. He is NOT going to pour out His WRATH on those that are ALREADY His Children.

Now those that BECOME His Children in the Great Tribulation is another matter. They may get beheaded, and have tribulations, but not even sure THEY will experience the WRATH of God.

They are told if they endure to the end, they will be saved, And its not eternal salvation God was talking about.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 3, 2018

When Jesus' "Parousia [/Presence]" is "IN THE AIR" [i.e. at our Rapture], He is not (at that same time) in the presence of those on the earth.

"Parousia" must be viewed in its CONTEXT. It is used of BOTH INSTANCES. Depending on "WHERE" and IN WHOSE PRESENCE He is, which is distinct between the time of our Rapture ("IN THE AIR"), and the time of His Second Coming to the earth.

Besides that, the OP (and its subsequent posts) has a number of assumptions that I believe to be incorrect, but will have to come back to address those later (as they are numerous).

Hevosmies · Dec 3, 2018

Absolutely said:

Some people are almost obsessed with post-trib rapture. Its their main doctrine, the most important doctrine in the Bible.
Usually these people are into "prepping", some go so far as to sell you survival goods and make a good buck.

Hevosmies · Dec 3, 2018

calledoutones777 said:

Fake news, fake jews.

Yeshua is the proper hebrew name for Jesus. Jesus is the proper english name.

YAHOSHUA is neither hebrew NOR greek NOR english. Its simply a made up name by ignoramuses who dont know anything.
There are so many fake names out there, the sacred namers movement is an absolute joke. If you are fluent in only one language, I would let the scholars do the heavy lifting here...

The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

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