Not By Works

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Pisteuo

Guest
Please give us your understanding of the above and how this works outwardly.
If you have already done this please give me the link to it.

Ta
Alright bill , someone finally has asked the right question ! Let me think about how best to present it to you . We can do it here , start as new thread , or I can email it to you . What do you prefer ?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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you misunderstand that hebrews is speaking of no more sacrifice for the jews for their willful sin

this is not a verse speaking of the loss of salvation

Jesus was the final sacrifice

there is no more sacrifice for willful sin

many word for word break downs on this thread alone over every verse you will take out of context to push a man made belief system void of the true gospel<- the good news
Amen! In regards to Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer/active participant in the Hebrew community of believers who has committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Jesus Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
So you now you agree it is talking about salvation because it is talking about those sanctified by the blood of Christ?
So God began a good work in them, But even thought he PROMISES he will continue that work until the day of Christ, he may FAIL?? And those whom he has perfected forever, and he promised continue to sanctify until the day of Christ, was all a lie? its not up to God and his power it is up to us and our power?
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
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North Carolina
In my devotion this morning something which stood out: "Mankind has lost the perspective on eternity." It is not defined by works but by the gift of salvation to all mankind through the love and mercy of God Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth. Why would any human being believe they could ever do enough "works" to enter into eternity with such a wonderful God. We are but dirt and rags.
 
Dec 1, 2018
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If being faithfull is required. Then we have to save ourselves.

So the bible can not say you can not save yourself. Only to say you have to save yourself.. That is contradictory

People who have true faith work. It is not a matter of may work.. Faith works, read Heb 11. it does not sit idle. So ALL who are saved WILL work..

This thought they might not do anything so we must legalise the gospel and put people back under law, is from satan himself.
Amen on Hebrews 11: i think that makes, not conflicts with what i say. When we are committed to actually listen to the Holy Spirit He leads us to act faithfully. But as a part of the book, i looked at Christian behavior based on a variety of surveys of Christians; you would be surprised. We are under the guidance of Holy Spirit which leads us to keep the law (for example i am sure you would agree we are not to murder people). Remember that Jesus himself gave us the two greatest commandments which sum up the law and the prophets. So while we are not under the letter of the law, we are to follow the Holy Spirit which also leads us to keep the moral law for in it we love our brother and sister and God.
 
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So God began a good work in them, But even thought he PROMISES he will continue that work until the day of Christ, he may FAIL?? And those whom he has perfected forever, and he promised continue to sanctify until the day of Christ, was all a lie? its not up to God and his power it is up to us and our power?
I will answer when i return. The short answer is God does not lie. The long answer is we must receive God's promises through faith,
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
So you now you agree it is talking about salvation because it is talking about those sanctified by the blood of Christ?
there isnt one verse which speaks of the loss of salvation to someone God has saved in context😏

you may worship a god that fails or forsakes His own


i worship God
who will not lose even one of His own
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
So you would rather try to earn your way to heaven by doing your best to be good. Instead of allowing God to save you. And begin that great work of sanctifying you as he promised until the day of Christ?

My power at any time will never be enough to live up to Gods standard. And I would be a fool (pauls words not mine) If I would think I could perfect what God began in me through the spirit.

it is not a metaphor. It is Gods word. We are sealed by the HS until the day of redemption. Not until the day we stop walking. Even the prodigal son stopped walking, but he never stopped being the son.

spot on
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Amen on Hebrews 11: i think that makes, not conflicts with what i say. When we are committed to actually listen to the Holy Spirit He leads us to act faithfully. But as a part of the book, i looked at Christian behavior based on a variety of surveys of Christians; you would be surprised. We are under the guidance of Holy Spirit which leads us to keep the law (for example i am sure you would agree we are not to murder people). Remember that Jesus himself gave us the two greatest commandments which sum up the law and the prophets. So while we are not under the letter of the law, we are to follow the Holy Spirit which also leads us to keep the moral law for in it we love our brother and sister and God.
Heb 11 does conflict ehat you say

Heb 11, all those people had true saving faith and they ALL worked.

Many of them also commited some prety grace sins also.. Yet God still not only did not take his salvation from them, He still put them in the faith hall of fame.

The law requires perfection (as moses and paul put it, Whoever does not obey every word) or imposes a curse, that curse is death.

If your going to try to work at saving yourself. You better hope you have fulfilled the law (PS You Already failed) because if not, the law will condemn you where you stand, no matter how much you think you are walking in Christ.

God does not water his law down. He demands perfection. He is also the only one who ever attained that status, which is why HE died on the cross. So YOU and I could be saved.

Will you allow him to save you, or continue to try to save yourself?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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That is a human metaphor, not scripture. the Bible explicitly states that "For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." (or true sons of God) Led means to follow. We have the choice to follow or refuse to follow as stated and grieve or quench the Holy Spirit. Many many Christians today refuse to walk WITH the Holy Spirit. Paul defines the difference between being indwelt and walking with the Holy Spirit in Galatians 5:25. The same in emphasized in Galatians 6:7-9.
Hebrews 12:6-8
6 For the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.”
7 As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by its father? 8 If God doesn’t discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children at all.

I have posted the above on the assumption of your response to EG that HS chastens his children which to you is a human metaphor.

If I'm wrong please correct me.
Yes we have a choice to follow. We are not robots and God does not want robots.
He wants relationship and if we violate it he will chasten us.

Personally I do not believe God gives the Holy Spirit to those who are not truly repentant of the sin of unbelief in Jesus (which Jesus said the Holy Spirit must come to convict the world off)

God knows the heart and I believe that is what he will act upon.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Grace is the free gift , Faith is the process in which we receive it .

It appears you pervert the definition of FAITH, falsely making it part of obedience.

IT IS BECAUSE OF LOVE, THAT OBEDIENCE FOLLOWS AS PRODUCT OF THAT LOVE THAT HE PUT IN US, ROM. 5:5.

John 14:21 (HCSB)
21 The one who has My commands and keeps them is the one who loves Me. And the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father. I also will love him and will reveal Myself to him.”


TOTALLY IT IS PART OF LOVE that happens after SALVATION, and NEVER HAS BEEN PART OF SALVATION.


John 14:23 (HCSB)
23 Jesus answered, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.


TOTALLY IT IS PART OF LOVE that happens after SALVATION, and NEVER HAS BEEN PART OF SALVATION.


John 14:15 (HCSB)
15 If you love Me, you will keep My commands.


TOTALLY IT IS PART OF LOVE that happens after SALVATION, and NEVER HAS BEEN PART OF SALVATION.


Romans 4:3-5 (ESV)
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Romans 11:6 (HCSB)
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace. 🡨 👈

Titus 3:5-8 (HCSB)
5 He saved usnot by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
8 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.

Romans 6:23 (ASV)
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 5:15 (ESV)
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

Ephesians 2:5 (HCSB)
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!


So why do you try to Rob the LORD of the glory that solely belongs to HIM!
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Alright bill , someone finally has asked the right question ! Let me think about how best to present it to you . We can do it here , start as new thread , or I can email it to you . What do you prefer ?
Let's do it here or maybe start a new thread.
I say here because maybe a lot of people here do not know either.
Part of me thinks start a new thread so as to not detract from this one, but maybe it may replicate the opposite of this thread "Works save"

But as I said I do not know what you are trying to convey along with others.

I will leave that up to you.
Either way no one has an excuse to indulge in conversation about it.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Yes, But to lose salvation, the HS has to leave you, and unseal you, and you have to die again, then be resaved again. And have the HS baptise you again and re-enter you and reseal you (eph 1)

Thats not the case

We grieve him as a chid grieves a parent, As as a parend does a child. The HS chastens the children of God. He does not kick them out of his family
Amen! Hebrews 12:7 - It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. The AMP Bible in verse 8 reads - Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God’s children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all].

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (y)

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (y)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Let's do it here or maybe start a new thread.
I say here because maybe a lot of people here do not know either.
Part of me thinks start a new thread so as to not detract from this one, but maybe it may replicate the opposite of this thread "Works save"

But as I said I do not know what you are trying to convey along with others.

I will leave that up to you.
Either way no one has an excuse to indulge in conversation about it.
Will pray for God to work through you brother Bill! God bless!
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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This is taking a verse out of the larger context of scripture. It is why I wrote the book Pulpit Fiction: How the Modern Church is Endangering the Eternal Destiny of its Followers. What the verse you quote says, we cannot be saved of ourselves. It says nothing of being faithful after we have accepted Jesus Christ.......
Hello ReturnToGod and welcome to the forum, I love your screen name. The beginning of this verse refers to, "works of righteousness which we have done", but you say, "it say's nothing of being faithful." I believe works of righteousness, "which we have done", is saying something about the "fruit of our faithfulness."

God bless!

King James Bible: Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness "which we have done", but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 
Dec 12, 2013
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This is taking a verse out of the larger context of scripture. It is why I wrote the book Pulpit Fiction: How the Modern Church is Endangering the Eternal Destiny of its Followers. What the verse you quote says, we cannot be saved of ourselves. It says nothing of being faithful after we have accepted Jesus Christ.......
Blah blah blah.....read the whole thread...it is not about ongoing sanctification AFTER ONE HAS BEEN SAVED BY FAITH ALONE!!!!!!!!!!

You guys come in here, ignore the reason for the OP, then attribute motive or things not said or implied, then lip flap, accuse and go off on some tangent.....read thru the thread....then come engage me with this rigmarole about some book you may have written........geesh!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Hi VCO,
I like to come back here every now and then because I can't believe this thread is still going on!

Eternal life is a free gift based on God's grace and because you have faith.
It's given to you through your faith.

And 1 Peter 1:4-5 is correct, of course, but just look what the last verse says:
5 And God, in his mighty power, will make sure that you get there safely to receive it because you are trusting him.

As long as we are trusting God our faith will save us.
If we stop trusting God and lose faith, we will no longer be saved.


Because if faith saves us........
Lack of faith will cause our downfall.


Hebrews 10:36
36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

James 1:12
12Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
Wrong again Fran......you do realize that the above view equates Jesus to a complete and utter failure, liar and deceiver right?

What does the following words mean

Begins, finishes and completes?

In your book.....starts, cannot finish and walks away........

My bible is clear....

Jesus begins my faith
Jesus finishes my faith
JESUS COMPLETES MY FAITH

It is tragic that you worship, serve, believe in and peddle a weak, inept, lying Jesus that is not represented in scripture.....

You should be ashamed of yourself!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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pistueo, salvation is the free gift by Grace to all who believe on Jesus as their Lord and savior


and Gods gifts are without repentance
Amen brother....I guess most have no understanding of the word irrevocable....and some cannot grasp begins, finishes and completes....or even the words never leave, never forsake and saved to the uttermost!!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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The tongue in cheek quote that is often used and manifest in some, is that "the only difference between those who have accepted Christ and have not is the fact that those who have accepted Christ have been given a license to sin."
You got the tongue in cheek part right.....Paul was accused of the same crap you just accused @eternally-gratefull and many of us of......tells all what side you are really on....the bloviating, accusatory side that has no argument other than the bolded lie above which none here teach or espouse...!!