Not By Works

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Sure, it's easy. You know about it now and look for it.

As to sanctification....there's no such thing as positional sanctification.
Could you show me some scripture?
Sanctification is an on-going life process. HOW could it be positional?
lol. Ok, keep believing this. Its worse than I thought.. No wonder you have no faith in God. You do not even know who he is.

As for positional sanctification.

Paul

1 Cor 6: 11 You HAVE been washed, You HAVE been justified, you HAVE been sanctified (a completed act) thats positional sanctification

Heb 10: 10 - We HAVE BEEN (perfect tense) Sanctified. Again, A completed act.

Jude 1. To those who ARE SANCTIFIED (perfect tense) and preserved in christ. (Again, a completed act)

Again, Nice try, But you are wrong. Period.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
YOU are doing the same as that guy that misquotes @posthuman .

I won't reply to you any longer.

P.S. It would be interesting to hear what YOU believe the Mosaic Covenant stated, but, frankly, I don't care.

I did not misquote you dude

Oh my. Back where we started.

We DO have to believe,
and we DO have to obey "some commands".
This does NOT put us back under the law.

The law, the Mosaic Covenant, said that Israel had to obey God and follow the commandments in order to be saved. They said they'd do it, but they COULDN'T. Why? Because they didn't have the help of the Holy Spirit. This is the only big difference between the Mosaic C. and the New C.

The New C. gives us the POWER of the Holy Spirit in ORDER TO obey the commandments.
Jesus told the Apostles to wait in Jerusalem and they would be empowered by the Spirit.

Acts 1:8

We now have an advocate with the Father, Hebrews, and it doesn't depend only on ourselves.
We can now trust Jesus to make up where we fall off....now it depends on our faith and not on our works, to be saved.

Abraham had faith,,,but when God told him to leave Ur, he did...he always obeyed God.
I refer you also to Genesis 18:19.

The Israelites tried to keep the law without loving God...As soon as Moses left they built the golden calf...THIS is trying to WORK your way to God under the Law.

We LOVE God and work because we WANT to.
Not only did you say you believed the law said they could be saved by obeying it, You said they could not do it because they di dnot have the HS.

You want to ignore me, You do it because YOU KNOW I have you cornered. And you have no place to hide except to run

Well run, I will continue to expose you, as a liar. Who will not even back his own words

Oh and PS. I alreqdy showed you what the law stated, Using moses and pauls words. So once again your proven a liar buy saying I would not do somethign I ALREADY DID.

Ha ha ha ha ha wow man! Wow
 
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Pisteuo

Guest
All I ask is that we stay focused on the facts and understandings that I'm presenting and not go into the misrepresentations and name-calling mode . It will require you to be honest with yourself .

The answer to the question you ask me is best presented by starting at the beginning of the Salvation journey , walking it together , agreeing or disagreeing as we take each step .

We may agree or disagree on somethings simply because our wording may be different , so let's cut each other some slack in that respect .

Some background .
Yes , The Father gave His Son , His Son gave His life for the sins of the world .
I understand Salvation is by Grace , through Faith .
I understand that nobody comes to Christ unless the Father draws or calls them to Him .

Without going into detail about specifics on those understandings are you in a basic agreement?

Can we start our discussion at this beginning stage where the Father is calling or drawing people to Christ ?
No this post Bill .
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Perhaps we should use the Jewish Definition of what it means to BELIEVE, along with true saving faith.

They will not say they BELIEVE in something, unless they have ABSOLUTE TRUST in what they are claiming to BELIEVE.
St. Francis of Assisi says, that the devil tempts spiritual souls, who have given themselves to God, in a way different from that in which he tempts the wicked. In the beginning he does not seek to bind them with a chain; he is content to hold them by a 91 single hair: he then binds them with a slender thread; afterward with a cord; then with a chain; and thus drags them to sin. And therefore he who wishes to be free from the danger of perdition must, in the beginning, break all these hairs, he must avoid all occasions of sins, he must give up these salutations, presents, notes, and the like.

And for those who have contracted a habit of committing sins against purity, it will not be enough to avoid proximate occasions: unless they fly even from remote occasions, they will relapse. He who sincerely wishes to be saved, must, by often repeating with the saints, Let all be lost, provided God is not lost, labor continually to strengthen and renew his resolution of never again renouncing the friendship of God.

But it is not enough to resolve never more to lose God; it is moreover necessary to adopt the means by which you may be preserved from the danger of losing him. The first means is, to avoid the occasions of sin; of this we have already spoken. The second is, to frequent the sacraments of penance and the Eucharist. In the house which is often swept there is no uncleanness. By the sacrament of penance the soul is purified; by it it obtains not only the remission of sins, but also help to resist temptations. The Communion is called the bread of heaven; because as the body cannot live without earthly food, so the soul cannot live without this celestial bread. Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you (John, vi, 54).

But on the other hand, to those who frequently eat this bread, is promised eternal life. If any man eat of this bread he shall live forever (John, vi, 52). Hence the Council of Trent calls the Communion a medicine which delivers us from venial, and preserves us from mortal sins (Sess. 13, cap. 2). The third means is meditation, or mental prayer.

Remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin (Ecclus. vii, 40). He who keeps before his eyes the eternal truths— 92 death, judgment, eternity—will not fall into sin. God enlightens us in meditation. Come ye to Him, and be enlightened (Ps. xxxiii, 6). In meditation God speaks to us, and makes known to us what we are to avoid, and what we are to do. I will lead her into the wilderness, and I will speak to her heart (Osee, ii, 14).

Meditation is the blessed furnace in which divine love is lighted up. In my meditation a fire shall flame out (Ps. xxxviii, 4). To preserve the soul in the grace Of God, it is, as has been already said, absolutely necessary always to pray, and to ask for the graces we stand in need of. They who do not make mental prayer, will scarcely pray for God’s graces; and by neglecting to pray for them, they will certainly be lost. It is necessary then to adopt the means of salvation, and to lead a life of order and regularity.

It is necessary, after rising in the morning, to make the Christian acts of thanksgiving, love, oblation, and a purpose of avoiding sin, along with a prayer to Jesus and Mary that they may preserve you from sin during the day: you should afterward make your meditation, and hear Mass.

During the day you ought to make a spiritual reading, visit the Blessed Sacrament and an image of the divine Mother. In the evening, say the Rosary, and make an examination of conscience. Go to Communion several times in the week, according as your director may advise: you should ordinarily go to confession to the same confessor.

It would also be very profitable to make the spiritual exercises in some religious house. It is likewise necessary to honor the Most Holy Mary by some special devotion—such as by fasting on Saturdays. She is called the Mother of perseverance, and she promises to obtain it for all who serve her. They that work by me shall not sin (Ecclus. xxiv, 30). Above all, it is necessary to ask of God holy perseverance, and especially in the time of temptation, invoking then more frequently the names of Jesus and Mary as long as the temptation continues. If you act in this manner, you will certainly be saved; if not, you will certainly be lost.

Affections and Prayers

My dear Redeemer! I thank Thee for the lights which Thou now givest me, and for the means of salvation which Thou makest known to me. I promise to endeavor to persevere in the practice of them. I see that Thou wishest for my salvation ; and I wish to be saved principally to please Thy heart, which so ardently desires my salvation.

O my God ! I will no longer resist the love which Thou entertainest for me. This love has made Thee bear me with so much patience when I offended Thee. Thou callest me to Thy love, and I desire only to love Thee. I love Thee, O infinite Goodness! I love Thee, O infinite Good ! Ah ! I entreat Thee, through the merits of Jesus Christ, not to permit me to be ever again ungrateful to Thee; either make me cease to be ungrateful to Thee, or make me cease to live.

Lord ! Thou hast already begun the work ; bring it to perfection, Confirm, O God! that which Thou hast wrought in me (Ps. lxvii, 29). Give me light, give me strength, give me love. O Mary! who art the treasurer of graces, assist me, accept me for thy servant, and pray to Jesus for me. Through the merits of Jesus Christ first, and then through thy prayers, I hope for salvation.
A point of information about posting on forums.
The longer the post the fewer people will bother to read it. That especially goes for multiple sequential long posts.
 
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Um no he was not

The son was always the son, The son had his fathers blood. No matter how far the son walked away, No matter how deep he went underground, or no matter how High he could climb, He would still be his fathers son.
They will never understand the truthful concept of once a son by birth always a son by birth as long as they conflate biblical truths and or reject context and or the simple truth of the scripture....!
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
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They will never understand the truthful concept of once a son by birth always a son by birth as long as they conflate biblical truths and or reject context and or the simple truth of the scripture....!
And God tells us nothing can take us away, separate us, from Him. We are His no matter what.
 
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I NEVER said I believe your first sentence!

If a person has saving faith and does his best to keep God's commandments and follow the Lord Jesus, he WILL be saved.

Also, if you've noticed, I don't like using the word hell.
I like to concentrate on the positive and do my best to warn people to obey God so they could end up with Him. (obey Him by following the Holy Spirit---not by doing works of the law).
Therein lies the problem with your gospel...I.E. the second sentence is false......and too be honest totally rejects the truth of salvation being spoken of in all three tenses, and not to mention a perfect tense verb and or aorist tense verb....you conflate justification with sanctification and in so doing lay bare the false gospel you proclaim Fran......the gospel you peddle has NO POWER to save, is double cursed and all who believe it are bewitched and fools........and the tragic truth...it is the same gospel believed by the MANY that come before Jesus claiming him as LORD and their right to enter based upon what they have done.....
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Yes. But even Calvin said that it's not easy to hold on to salvation.
If I could find the link, I'll post it.
There is a difference between what Calvin said and Calvinism his views were expanded on to become Calvinism.
 
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And God tells us nothing can take us away, separate us, from Him. We are His no matter what.
Amen Star....saved to the uttermost, kept by the power of God theough the faith he starts, finishes and completes and give the IRREVOCABLE gift of eternal life.......
 
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Lol

People could read the OT and find the trinity

They could know of YHWH (Pre-incarnate Jesus)

They could know of the ultimate God or father (As jesus said, no one has seen the father, yet Jesus was seen as the angel of God,) and the HS was prayed for. In fact, David as you said prayed that God would not remeve the HS from him

What a joke..

As for santification, There are two types

Positional (we have been sanctified)

Conditional (we are being sanctified)

Maybe if you leaned the difference, you would finally see the gospel
Amen and amen........the truth is easy enough to understand unless you conflate numerous issues into one big quagmire alphabet soup.....!!
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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I wold like to say that I have found Calvin's commentaries to be very good.
unfortunately, his end game is not what I glean from the scriptures.
How anyone could believe in calvinism is a mystery to me...

Also, there are some persons in the bible that ARE elected, in the sense of chosen. Sometimes elected does not mean chosen...but anyway -
for instance Mary. Does Luke 1:31 sound like a request? Not to me.
And others...like Judas, Pharaoh . God CAN do whatever He wants!!!
He IS sovereign and will work all to His will.

However, I DO believe the bible teaches that He gives to all men the opportunity to be saved and not be condemned to hell through no fault of their own.
Here is both sides of the controversy with Biblical defense of both.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/
 
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D,
I'm sure you know that not everything could be received from the bible alone.
I give you the Trinity. How many do you suppose would ever come up with that theology if it were not for bijblical scholars, theologians, etc. ?
Not many.

So why don't we look to these men who studied Justification and Sanctification because, as I see you know, the terms were sometimes used interchangeably in the N.T. Paul was not very careful with his words because he didn't know Dcon would be born one fine day.

Here is a good explanation:

Christ has won both justification and sanctification for His people. Both graces are the concern of faith in Jesus Christ, but in different ways. In justification, our faith results in our being forgiven, accepted, and accounted righteous in God’s sight.

In sanctification, that same faith actively and eagerly takes up all the commands that Christ has given the believer. We dare not separate or conflate justification and sanctification. We do distinguish them. And, in both graces, we enter into the richness and joy of communion with Christ through faith in Him.

source: https://www.ligonier.org/blog/what-are-justification-and-sanctification/
Those men? I need no commentary from men to tell me whay THEY believe.....the bible tells me all I need to know.......

Therefore we conclude a man is JUSTIFIED by faith without the deeds/works of the law.

and sanctification is dual in usage....

One is positionally and eternally in Christ by faith and the other is our daily life based upon the transformational process described in Romans 12:1-2

You conflate too many issues Fran which leads you to erroneous conclusions.....!
 
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So again, It is not up to God or his power to save you, it is up to you to do your best.?


News flash, Your best is not good enough..If it was, we could fulfill the law ourselves and jesus would never have had to come.



So you would rather ignore the truth of where those people who reject the gospel will go. is this because your afraid you may still end there? I mean think about it, how cna you know you will continue your best, and not turn later in life?

Your hope is based on your ability.
My hope is based on God. I am not afraid of talkin gbaout hell. because I know it is not where I will be..
Amen.....there is no hope in a self saving dogma that relies on your ability to keep yourself saved and then HOPE you are saved at the end....JOHN was clear...we can KNOW RIGHT NOW WE ARE SAVED....and this not saved until the end crap is exactly that....false and crap at the same time.....

He that believes on the SON is having everlasting life.

In the grace you are, HAVING BEEN SAVED OUT OF FAITH (PAST TENSE) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOF AND NOT IF WORKS LEAST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST!

That not of yourselves is directed at the faith that saves.....IT IS HIS WORK OF FAITH IN US that HE begins, finishes and completes......!!!!
 

lukeabers

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Pretty easy to tell if you are saved...if you are saved, you will love God and He will chastise you when you do wrong. As the psalmist wrote, 'Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me."
 
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Nice try rebel soldier. Ever heard of Lucifers pride and rebellion and the Son of perdition? Doesn't sound like he's obedient to authorities. Now if you're a good soldier, YOU will obey your commanding officer. Take as an example the people of God who won so many battles and were saved from destruction whenever they OBEY God as their commander. Did you trust and OBEY your commanding officer in the Marines?

Why won't you obey the Lord Jesus when He says that "if you want to ENTER LIFE, obey the commandments. (Matthew 19:17)

...“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? Luke 6:46
Seoche....your drivel has no value with me....you are nothing more than a Catholic and an accuser of the brethern......exactly why what you post = valueless......!!

Get your facts straight and post some truth for once in your life and maybe you won't be put on ignore again by most and or sent packing!!
 
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You said he said he thought YOUR DOCTRINE would save you.

He did not say that at all. He said if you do not come to TRUTH you are going to pay the ultimate price. Not save you..

Again, nice try
Fran should change her name to Conflation Station......I love being accused of saying something I did not say....that sounds like the snake in the garden....Hath God really said....nooooo he did not say that, but rather this is what he meant........
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Yep, Armenians have a very low understanding of what is a Christian, and we KNOW that the majority of people that sit pews are NOT BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS. I used to be one those kind of so-called Christians for YEARS. I thought that Infant Baptism and Reciting the Apostles Creed, meant I had to be SAVED. Now after 3 attempts at Suicide the last week of 1977, before I REPENTED (cried like baby) at 29 years of Age, and LOVINGLY Surrendered to Jesus Christ as my Master and LORD. I KNOW I WAS NEVER SAVED AT ALL FOR MY FIRST 29 YEARS on this earth. WAY DIFFERENT WITH HIM IN CONTROL OF MY LIFE.
It is obvious you fail to understand both Calvinism and Arminianism are very Biblical. Both have long documents of their position annotated with lots of supporting scripture references.
 
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Sure, it's easy. You know about it now and look for it.

As to sanctification....there's no such thing as positional sanctification.
Could you show me some scripture?
Sanctification is an on-going life process. HOW could it be positional?
It seems.obvious that you do nit understand the Greek word translated "In" nor Hebrews and the words SANCTIFIED ETERNALLY.....BUT hey.....par for the course for Fran.....she must OBEY her way into the kingdom <--See the words "Many will come before me in thay day saying........"