Not By Works

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

If you think that I only take one verse to come to a conclusion on any given biblical concept, you need to lay off the juice!!

Well my friend, you were the one who was posting one verse at a time and I was the one who was explaining(exegeting) the passage, the verses surrounding it/following it to give you the proper context.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Wow, you're all worked up bro.

So, you hold God as obligated to show mercy to every person ever, correct? Mercy from God is an obligation of God? Is this also an obligation of any judge on earth?

God is not obligated to show mercy, nor is he obligated to grant grace, but he is obligated to be just.

And those who say God has mercy on all people without exception, that ideology melts like a snowball in the 'hot place' when one reads through Romans 9. God has vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy. The vessels of mercy were taken out of that same lump the vessels of wrath were in(vs 21). This goes to prove God took the elect from Adam's fallen posterity when God said “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”(vs 15)

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Wow, you're all worked up bro.

So, you hold God as obligated to show mercy to every person ever, correct? Mercy from God is an obligation of God? Is this also an obligation of any judge on earth?

God is not obligated to show mercy, nor is he obligated to grant grace, but he is obligated to be just.

As Dr. James White so poignantly state it, "For grace to be grace, it must be free." God is not obligated to show grace to anyone, but in His mercy He grants grace to the elect.

 

[Argueless]

Let me try to get you to see the light.


I think you are the one that has said that man can lose His Salvation.

I say that is impossible for those with GENUINE BIBLICAL LOVE, because in 1 John 2:19 it says that those who went out, NONE were of us.


NOW IT SAYS THAT WHO HAVE GENUINE BIBLICAL LOVE, IT NEVER ENDS.

1 Corinthians 13:8 (HCSB)
8 Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for languages, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end,


NOW, that fits my interpretation of 1 John 2:19 - PERFECTLY.

BUT those with your THEORY that man can lose his SALVATION, you have to ALTAR both 1 John 2:19, and 1 Cor. 13:8 VIOLATING Deut. 4:2, OR you have to admit you made a mistake, OR you are calling GOD a liar? WHICH IS IT ? ? ?

I'll just reply to this then put you back on ignore.

So to whatever question you have in mind I will say AGAIN that LOVE IS THE ANSWER because GOD IS LOVE and so He has to be the TRUTH.

I noticed that when you and your OSAS group quote scriptures, you do not include verses that would not fit your doctrine such as in 1 Corinthians 13 where you ignore or skip verse 2 and the same with Romans 3:31 etc.

Jesus clearly said,

...He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” Mark 7:6-13

I do not alter nor reject any scripture like you and your group do, and regarding losing salvation, I believe that Ananias and Saphira is a good example along with those in the book of Jude. Jesus even said to the Church in Sardis that He has not found their deeds complete in the sight of God and told them to repent and OBEY what they heard and received or else He will come like a thief and we know what He meant about it.

The parables and the warnings about false prophets and teachers and deceivers would also be good examples of God's righteous JUDGMENT in regards to salvation on both believers and unbelievers.

..Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As Dr. James White so poignantly state it, "For grace to be grace, it must be free." God is not obligated to show grace to anyone, but in His mercy He grants grace to the elect.

Grace is free

But for grace to be effective and satisfyu the requirments of LOVE. It must be freely recieved, and not withheld from anyone who is led by it to recieve freely the gift of the one who is offering it.

A tax collector who got on his knees because he was broken by God and led to him, is not earningn his grace. He is asking vfor Grace to be applied to him..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And those who say God has mercy on all people without exception, that ideology melts like a snowball in the 'hot place' when one reads through Romans 9. God has vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy. The vessels of mercy were taken out of that same lump the vessels of wrath were in(vs 21). This goes to prove God took the elect from Adam's fallen posterity when God said “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”(vs 15)

Romans 9 does not support fatalism, Romans 9 is Paul answering the question, Has God made a mistake chosing Israel. If one does not have the context of the passage correct. They can not properly interpret it correctly. The fatalistic view does not only not make sense in what paul was tryign to say, it does not make sense with the rest of scripture.

This quote from the apostle paul calvinists love to use, Is actually a quote the apostle paul used from the book of Genesis. When God threatened to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth, And Moses (A type of Christ) requested to see God. Because he wanted proof God would lead his people who had just commited grave sins. God said he could not see him lest he die, But he wil pass before him, He will show mercy to whomever and compassion to whomever he wills. It has NOTHING to do with the salvation of some people and the refusing to allow others the chance to be saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you think that I only take one verse to come to a conclusion on any given biblical concept, you need to lay off the juice!!

They post a few passage he THINKS support them, While failing to take the pasage in question literally for what it says.

There is NO OTHER WAY possible to take. God came as savior to ALL but ESPECIALLY to a group of people and not understand that he is the savior of MORE then the group.

Going to other passages does not help you twist a verse to say something it does not say. If this was the cae, it would be easy to find a verse we do not like, so we twist the meaning of the verse, then search the scriptures to find a few verses that make it appear the support our case. And we are vindicated in changing the meaning.

Sometimes we just have to take the verse as written..

 

[blue_ladybug]

Coffee, anybody?

 

[PennEd]

Well......I can think of exceptions.....

All babies that die at birth NEVER SINNED

Paul said that when the law came SIN REVIVED AND HE DIED....he was alive physically when he wrote that

David said he would go to and see his 1 week old dead son when he died

I do not believe that many = all.....

polus: much, many
Original Word: πολύς, πολλή, πολύ
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: polus
Phonetic Spelling: (pol-oos')
Definition: much, many
Usage: much, many; often.

pas: all, every
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Definition: all, every
Usage: all, the whole, every kind of.

These are fair points, but I would differ slightly on whether children have sinned. The Bible is pretty clear that ALL have sinned and fallen short. I believe this includes children. However their sin is not imputed to them. They need the Blood of Christ as well.

But I am in certain agreement that ALL children will be in Heaven that have died prior to the age of accountability.

 

[gb9]

Coffee, anybody?

View attachment 192185

yes please!!

( good morning ms. blue!! )

 

[blue_ladybug]

yes please!!

( good morning ms. blue!! )

Good morning, Sir GB9..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Coffee, anybody?

View attachment 192185

I take mine with cream, Thank you!!

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Coffee, anybody?

View attachment 192185

Please😢

Of course ALL MEN = only the saved........cough cough because those destined to burn have no option!!!!!!

STILL cannot justifiy the calvinisitic view based upon God desiring that ALL MEN COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH and be saved.....

Is that ALL except the ones he chose for hell?

lol
I love you bro
we are on the same page, I believe

I do not believe God is surprised who is and is not saved though He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked

He is just
but His mercy and love run so deep that His hand is outstretched even for those He is aware will not accept Him....there will be no excuse

I do not believe I can take credit for a saving faith, nor for the initial faith which made me so scared of a just punishment I deserved that I started seeking Jesus ... I do not take credit for any part of my salvation ... given that after I heard... and my indwelling response to the truth was belief... but my fleshly desire was to remain willfully ignorant to continue to justify my sinful lifestyle as morally acceptable before fellow worldly men and women....

but I do believe we have that choice.... to walk after the flesh willfully ignorant of Gods out stretched hand while rejecting what He writes on our hearts..... I did that and I take credit for that choice.... but I do not take credit for the fear being so strong from the initial call... that I had to be honest with myself to stop the dread..... again that was a natural response to what was in me....

sorry for the long winded response when I think we are in agreement anyways...

Eh?

Oh, so it's Universalism? Or, should we apply context and common sense? Notice that word many? "All" in that context isn't each and every person who has ever lived, it is all kinds of men.

Keep in mind that used to be my belief until I actually looked at context and have read through the entirety of Scripture many times.

Now, let's not all go ape like and attack the "Calvinist" and just slow down a little, think it through, study, instead of merely pulling up a proof text. Paul is making his argument, now, go read some commentators on this and see what is going on. It's OK to learn from others.

I hope you don't think I was attacking you my brother, I've got the flu... an ear infection... a throat so tore up I've been coughing blood for 9 days now.... also... I'm fairly over worked, currently at work (and was at work when I sent that)
My attacks probably wouldn't hold much weight until I'm healed anyways 😆


I know you and some of my other brothers are in conflict over the "calvinist" issue (in your hearts it's about the truth of Gods word)

I only posted one short bit of Gods word to demonstrate how loving He is and hopefuly show mr.argue that he is wrong about God and Gods word in regards to how salvation is "obtained"...


I see the divide in here... I am not sure exactly what to say or what I am supposed to try to learn that I do not know.....

I give God credit for my salvation



I may not be calvinist... or fully understand what it means😅

but I respect you and I love you like a brother and I see you as a new man with a God given heart.....

You are much like a diamond...
you shine brightly when in the light... (but your head is close to impenetrable)

BOOM

lol there is my sickly medicated jab to a calvinist... ask and ye shall recieve

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Please😢




lol
I love you bro
we are on the same page, I believe

I do not believe God is surprised who is and is not saved though He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked

He is just
but His mercy and love run so deep that His hand is outstretched even for those He is aware will not accept Him....there will be no excuse

I do not believe I can take credit for a saving faith, nor for the initial faith which made me so scared of a just punishment I deserved that I started seeking Jesus ... I do not take credit for any part of my salvation ... given that after I heard... and my indwelling response to the truth was belief... but my fleshly desire was to remain willfully ignorant to continue to justify my sinful lifestyle as morally acceptable before fellow worldly men and women....

but I do believe we have that choice.... to walk after the flesh willfully ignorant of Gods out stretched hand while rejecting what He writes on our hearts..... I did that and I take credit for that choice.... but I do not take credit for the fear being so strong from the initial call... that I had to be honest with myself to stop the dread..... again that was a natural response to what was in me....

sorry for the long winded response when I think we are in agreement anyways...




I hope you don't think I was attacking you my brother, I've got the flu... an ear infection... a throat so tore up I've been coughing blood for 9 days now.... also... I'm fairly over worked, currently at work (and was at work when I sent that)
My attacks probably wouldn't hold much weight until I'm healed anyways 😆


I know you and some of my other brothers are in conflict over the "calvinist" issue (in your hearts it's about the truth of Gods word)

I only posted one short bit of Gods word to demonstrate how loving He is and hopefuly show mr.argue that he is wrong about God and Gods word in regards to how salvation is "obtained"...


I see the divide in here... I am not sure exactly what to say or what I am supposed to try to learn that I do not know.....

I give God credit for my salvation



I may not be calvinist... or fully understand what it means😅

but I respect you and I love you like a brother and I see you as a new man with a God given heart.....

You are much like a diamond...
you shine brightly when in the light... (but your head is close to impenetrable)

BOOM

lol there is my sickly medicated jab to a calvinist... ask and ye shall recieve

(to brother p4t... i hope that wasnt disrespectful... i was only playing and in no way want to act as if im placing myself above you
.. i am much younger in my walk and even if we were to be in disagreement over one issue it does not take away from how much i respect you or your words)

 

[PennEd]

Of course ALL MEN = only the saved........cough cough because those destined to burn have no option!!!!!!

STILL cannot justifiy the calvinisitic view based upon God desiring that ALL MEN COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH and be saved.....

Is that ALL except the ones he chose for hell?

No question 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 are far and away the strongest proof against the elected, predestined doctrine. I personally don't have an open and shut answer to those verses. This question is not completely settled in my own mind, though I lean very heavily toward predestination. I think there are MANY more passages that say the saved are elected solely by God.

I do think in light of those 2 verses we should perhaps inject 2 Timothy 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

So even here with Timothy, the same Timothy of 1 Timothy 2:4, he acknowledges that GOD IS THE ONE THAT PUTS IT ON PEOPLE'S HEARTS TO REPENT.

So we are kinda back to square one. Best to just love Jesus, and each other, spread His Gospel, and believe that He alone saves us and keeps us saved, which I believe includes the decision we made, from the Faith HE GAVE us to believe in the 1st place.

 

[preacher4truth]

You are much like a diamond...
you shine brightly when in the light... (but your head is close to impenetrable)

Fizzle!

lol there is my sickly medicated jab to a calvinist... ask and ye shall recieve

Appropriated your "boom" above to a correct description.

Yep, I'm relentless for the truth. Reformed and relentless, Jude 1:4.

Still waiting, and will for eternity wait for any anti-Calvinist to use any contextual exegesis to prove their teachings against such as true.

The fact is they cannot contextually and/or exegetically do so.

No, they cannot do so.

There are many books written to give attempt, yet every single Scripture given is taken completely out of context. That is a fact. This is just one fact that has helped me understand the Gospel and the importance of proper interpretation.

The choose yourself into heaven doctrine via free will (while said decisional regeneration is clearly refuted by Scripture) is a new comer doctrine that's been around for about 150 years plus or minus. The Scriptures that refute this decisional salvation are completely rejected as the opponents merely pit another passage, out of context, against them as if it neutralizes the truth. It's actually sad to watch.

The misinterpretations and misapplications of "all" in Scripture via this decisional regeneration doctrine have led to antinomianism, Universalism, FGT, denial and even ridicule of the evidence of conversion, believe-ism, easy-believism, sinners prayer salvation, "ask Jesus in your heart," ridicule of self-examination, presumptive deception, listen here: false assurance, and such a severe hatred for works that any type of works are mocked as a works gospel.

This sort of teaching has also denied Sovereign electing grace as these falsely believe God chose them only because he saw they would choose them, turning the gift of eternal life into a reward. Those who believe and embrace the fact God has elected unconditionally those whom he willed to save are mocked as being "special" because they believe he chooses based on nothing good in man and only according to his purpose, Romans 9:11ff, Ephesians 1:4ff.

Hmmm. Think that over.

They were chosen because God saw them do something good (and/or because out of their own sincere love for God they came to him ) yet we're special? That's just absurd and anyone promoting that idea doesn't have much sense. Lastly it has embraced the Romans 9:20 man.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

(to brother p4t... i hope that wasnt disrespectful... i was only playing and in no way want to act as if im placing myself above you
.. i am much younger in my walk and even if we were to be in disagreement over one issue it does not take away from how much i respect you or your words)

Now if we could just get the same respect from them, Things owuld be much more peaceful

 

[VCO]

Coffee, anybody?

View attachment 192185

Yeah, ME! But I am supposed to have a Fasting Blood Sugar Test this morning.

 

[preacher4truth]

@Sackcloth-N-Ashes <--Funny and telling at the same time...I can quote a verse that states verbatim that Christ is the savior of ALL MEN especially of those that believe and then get questioned, mouthed and a big red X

Tells me all I need to know about the honesty and integrity of the one that gave me an big red X.....as in NONE!

There's another red X for ya!

Now, to your point above? You've been shown you are incorrect. You of all people should start implementing 2 Timothy 2:15, immediately, if not sooner, and move off from you K understanding of the Gospel. Sad thing is, you have God using double-jeopardy. People in hell? According to your teaching, their debt has been paid in full, just as our debt has been paid in full. Or, it is something else altogether, something you reject which Scripture teaches plainly. He saved his people from their sins, Matthew 1:21.

 

[preacher4truth]

If you think that I only take one verse to come to a conclusion on any given biblical concept, you need to lay off the juice!!

Agreed! You take several verses and misuse them!