Contradiction?

[eternally-gratefull]

the call is general, anyone can hear or read the simple message of the gospel, but it is the calling that comes from God to His people.
God adopts His kids..........He is the Father of only the elect.

And who does he give the power to become his children?
John 1: 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Seems we have to CHOSE to recieve his gift first..

 

[tklove]

And who does he give the power to become his children?
John 1: 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Seems we have to CHOSE to recieve his gift first..

I agree with you on your quote. God chooses all of his children to come to him and be a part of him, but we are the ones who have to accept his calling because he gives us a choice on whether or not we want to make him a part of our lives. Thanks for your quote.

 

[tklove]

The Bible says many are called, but few are chosen.

God wants all people to be saved, even though all people will not be saved, for not all people will accept and believe the salvation of God, but He still wants all people to be saved.

The Bible says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Not all people will be saved, but God still wants them to be saved, which He said He wants them all to come to the knowledge of the truth, but not all will come to the truth.

If they perish it is not what God wanted, but He wanted them to be saved.

Jesus gave His life for many because many will accept Him, and salvation, but not all will accept Him, and salvation.

But the truth is all people do want salvation, but the wicked do not realize that until they are at the great white throne judgment being judged by Jesus, but then it is too late for them to accept it then.

Jesus is the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world, but not all will accept so it is many, and not all.

Either way not all will accept the truth, and believe on Jesus, and the salvation of God, but God wants all people to be saved, and Jesus saved many.

Not all will believe the truth although God gave salvation to the world, but many will believe the truth.

I can agree with you on this. God wants all of us to be saved, but not everyone will accept him. We are given a choice on whether we want to follow him or not, but he still wants us no matter what decision we make. God requires all those who are saved to go out into the world and make disciples because there are people out there who need to be save but can't because they have not heard of the gospel yet, and that is when our job come in to tell them. Although, they may get the word into them, they may not make the decision to be save, but some will.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

And who does he give the power to become his children?
John 1: 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Seems we have to CHOSE to recieve his gift first..

You just posted scripture that says NOT by the will of man.
It would seem also that it says "as many as? not "all".

If you go to John 3:27 which says....."a man can receive nothing unless it has been GIVEN him from heaven"
That verse would conflict with John 1:12-13 if we understand it your way ( free will)

by the way........."can" implies ability....one is either able to do something or they can not
as in " none CAN come to Me unless the Father GRANTS it to him" no ability.....we are as a corpse unless one is born again from above
(peter 1:3 God causes us to be born again)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You just posted scripture that says NOT by the will of man.
It would seem also that it says "as many as? not "all".

If you go to John 3:27 which says....."a man can receive nothing unless it has been GIVEN him from heaven"
That verse would conflict with John 1:12-13 if we understand it your way ( free will)

by the way........."can" implies ability....one is either able to do something or they can not
as in " none CAN come to Me unless the Father GRANTS it to him" no ability.....we are as a corpse unless one is born again from above
(peter 1:3 God causes us to be born again)

I just posted a scripture that says a person who RECIEVES christ is given the power to be children of God. (Ie, this is a requirment) Which proves that a person RECIEVEING Christ is NOT recieving by the will of man.

Please read the whole thing, and stop trying to focus on only the part you think supports you.

 

[Grandpa]

I think that has to do more with progressive revelation (no, I don't mean left-wing lol) than any thing else...

Hebrews 1:1-2 NASBS
[1] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, [2] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

That's part of the reason for my original post to DCON.

I don't think that the people of the OT knew that their sacrificing of an unblemished lamb was foreshadowing of the Sacrifice of our Redeemer, the Unblemished Lamb of God.

Therefore, they couldn't be looking forward to the Blood Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ as we look back to that event.

All they could do is trust in God. Which is basically what we do as well. But we have a little more understanding of what the OT was all about. How it was all about Christ, but veiled.

But when we read Isaiah and the Psalms we can see that some people must have had a revelation of who Christ is. How much of a revelation is hard to tell. And it obviously didn't spread to all of Israel. It must have been given to only a few.

People assume that those who were saved in the OT were saved in the same way as we are. They had the same gospel, and knew the same things we know. I'm not so sure of that. Unless there were far, FAR fewer people saved back then.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I just posted a scripture that says a person who RECIEVES christ is given the power to be children of God. (Ie, this is a requirment) Which proves that a person RECIEVEING Christ is NOT recieving by the will of man.

Please read the whole thing, and stop trying to focus on only the part you think supports you.

Better idea.........not read your slanderous posts at all

 

[Rightlydivided]

No harm, no foul RD, just some of this nit-pickiness is getting a bit fowl.

There are no contradictions and there are numerous verses that speak to these truths......

Christ is the saviour of all men especially those that believe.

Many are called, but few chosen

God wpuld have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

For God so loved the KOSMOS <--translated world.....and then the word WHOSEVER is used.....

It seems that God has done everything possible except force belief when it comes to the salvation of mankind.....

He would save all if all would believe...

When a topic like this comes up you get the far right and far left that come out to play while ignoring the fact there is a balance to be struck right down the middle concerning predestination and election.........both sides of the coin ignorantly reject the balance that is both found and biblical between both views......

I do agree, but the root of this discussion, which pertains to Christ’s gospel, during his earthly ministry, which was purposed, for a specific message, under the veil, for the mystery preached by Paul, had not yet been made manifest. Therefore, The first question, among a series of questions that need to be answered and discussed is, was Paul revealed a mystery? If not, why does he claim he was? If yes, for what purpose?

 

[Grandpa]

You did not answer my question.

Is Jesus ruling with a rod of Iron. And is satan bound no.

Yes or no. And explain why you think that way.

Yes. For those that are saved.

No. For those who are not saved.

See Colossians 1:9-29

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Yes. For those that are saved.

No. For those who are not saved.

See Colossians 1:9-29

ET does not look up scripture

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes. For those that are saved.

No. For those who are not saved.

See Colossians 1:9-29

Thank you bro.

However, I see nations are what was prophesied as him not being able to decieve, Not people, in fact, after the 1000 year he is released aand once again is allowed to decieve these same nations. So he can not mean believers, unless we think after the 1000 years he can all of a sudden decieve believers or the elect again..

I also believe Satan can even still decieve believers. It is why so many have listened to him and lost their way as prodigal children. And he uses his army also I believe (he is not omnipresent) and his army represents him, However, Satan can only do what God allows him to do. In this way he is bound, but he can still decieve.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Better idea.........not read your slanderous posts at all

Slanderous?

Is this what you call people who disagree with you?

I did not slander you, if you think I did, you have issues.

What a joke.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ET does not look up scripture

Yet I posted you scripture. And you said I slandered you, because I asked you to look at one part of the verse you ignored.

I think grandpa knows me, and is not going to fall for your attacks against me, Him and I actually happen to be friends and brothers, even though we disagree on some doctrines..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do agree, but the root of this discussion, which pertains to Christ’s gospel, during his earthly ministry, which was purposed, for a specific message, under the veil, for the mystery preached by Paul, had not yet been made manifest. Therefore, The first question, among a series of questions that need to be answered and discussed is, was Paul revealed a mystery? If not, why does he claim he was? If yes, for what purpose?

It was revealed to him on the road to damascus.. Long after it was revealed to the disciples when they saw him after his ressurection.

 

[Rightlydivided]

That's part of the reason for my original post to DCON.

I don't think that the people of the OT knew that their sacrificing of an unblemished lamb was foreshadowing of the Sacrifice of our Redeemer, the Unblemished Lamb of God.

Therefore, they couldn't be looking forward to the Blood Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ as we look back to that event.

All they could do is trust in God. Which is basically what we do as well. But we have a little more understanding of what the OT was all about. How it was all about Christ, but veiled.

But when we read Isaiah and the Psalms we can see that some people must have had a revelation of who Christ is. How much of a revelation is hard to tell. And it obviously didn't spread to all of Israel. It must have been given to only a few.

People assume that those who were saved in the OT were saved in the same way as we are. They had the same gospel, and knew the same things we know. I'm not so sure of that. Unless there were far, FAR fewer people saved back then.

This is a great response, I think we can all agree that prophecy was written so that we may believe....looking back in “time passed” even in genesis when the “seed” of Abraham was promised...we see prophetic scripture relating to the Lamb of God, and what the Lamb of God will accomplish. All through the old and into the new....yes prophecy, but I do not see the gospel itself, as it pertains to the Cross, in a finished capacity, Christ had not been crucified yet, so how could those in Matthew, Luke, Mark and John, preach “present tense Sanctification”

This confuses a babe in Christ to believe he cannot “come as you are”, awesome hymn, and creates judgement between brethren, it arms members of the church with a watchful eye, waiting to shun and treat another as an unbeliever.(because in reality, no one gets this right, you’ll never know that guy is going through) .you may not do this yourself, but it is fully embraced all over the place, and I have seen the wreckage and experienced it myself..

I understand John 3:16 etc....But this was all things to come, to a people that did not understand. Therefore, why is It used as present day doctrine, which emphasizes works and repentance( this word right here alone, will set off a firestorm) , (good but IMB, a contradiction if considered a prerequisite to salvation)

The epistles of Paul, given by God, the same author, an obvious change in Grace through Faith without works...(yes you can find repentance in the epistles) but it is obviously defined in a capacity that focuses on grace...repentance is “abused” and without works, to the satisfaction of your brethren, seems to provoke others against each other, defined as “turning toward god”, well what the heck does that mean?? wouldn’t you have to? The poor guy is there in the church!!That’s no different than saying, to open the door, you must turn the knob! If applied perpetually you can just keep turning the dang thang as if Christ didn’t die for you, until it falls off, and you just end up walking away...

With “works” church members arm themselves with it and define it as a means for judgement, and then say they are not judging...WHAT?? Im covered in the blood of Christ! Back off! And take that fully assembled LOG CABIN out of your eye!!....praise be to God, thank you Jesus!!

 

[dcontroversal]

I've tried to make sense of this in my head and have not been able to fully see, I don't think, from the view of the people in the OT.

They didn't look forward to the blood sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. They couldn't have. They did trust that God would save them by His Grace and Mercy but they had no idea, and therefore no belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Although you kind of have to wonder when Abraham said "God will provide Himself with a sacrifice".

How much did Abraham know and did he mean a ram or a bull or something or did he mean the Lord Jesus Christ or someone similar???

Further teaching or expounding of Abrahams prophetic words don't seem to be repeated further in the Old Testament.

Are they and I just missed them?

How is it that you miss all the signs....

a. God shedding blood to cover Adam and Eve
b. Abel offering blood
c. Passover
d. Brazen serpent lifted up <-Christ even mentions this one
e. The blood sacrifices pointing to Christ
f. Abraham offering Isaac
g. Jonah 3 days n 3 nights in the whale
etc...

Jesus said, " Search the scriptures for they are they that testify of ME" <--the N.T. was NOT WRITTEN WHEN HE SAID THIS and Abraham told the man in hell that his brothers had the truth that could keep them from coming into that place!

The O.T. points to the cross the N.T. points back to the cross....Both were saved and justified by faith....

How is it that you and others miss this base, elementary truth?

 

[dcontroversal]

This is a great response, I think we can all agree that prophecy was written so that we may believe....looking back in “time passed” even in genesis when the “seed” of Abraham was promised...we see prophetic scripture relating to the Lamb of God, and what the Lamb of God will accomplish. All through the old and into the new....yes prophecy, but I do not see the gospel itself, as it pertains to the Cross, in a finished capacity, Christ had not been crucified yet, so how could those in Matthew, Luke, Mark and John, preach “present tense Sanctification”

This confuses a babe in Christ to believe he cannot “come as you are”, awesome hymn, and creates judgement between brethren, it arms members of the church with a watchful eye, waiting to shun and treat another as an unbeliever.(because in reality, no one gets this right, you’ll never know that guy is going through) .you may not do this yourself, but it is fully embraced all over the place, and I have seen the wreckage and experienced it myself..

I understand John 3:16 etc....But this was all things to come, to a people that did not understand. Therefore, why is It used as present day doctrine, which emphasizes works and repentance( this word right here alone, will set off a firestorm) , (good but IMB, a contradiction if considered a prerequisite to salvation)

The epistles of Paul, given by God, the same author, an obvious change in Grace through Faith without works...(yes you can find repentance in the epistles) but it is obviously defined in a capacity that focuses on grace...repentance is “abused” and without works, to the satisfaction of your brethren, seems to provoke others against each other, defined as “turning toward god”, well what the heck does that mean?? wouldn’t you have to? The poor guy is there in the church!!That’s no different than saying, to open the door, you must turn the knob! If applied perpetually you can just keep turning the dang thang as if Christ didn’t die for you, until it falls off, and you just end up walking away...

With “works” church members arm themselves with it and define it as a means for judgement, and then say they are not judging...WHAT?? Im covered in the blood of Christ! Back off! And take that fully assembled LOG CABIN out of your eye!!....praise be to God, thank you Jesus!!

I think you should go back and study the bible....and then read my post to Granpa in response to this post you are citing!

 

[Rightlydivided]

How is it that you miss all the signs....

a. Gof shedding blood to cover Adam and Eve
b. Abel offering blood
c. Passover
d. Brazen serpent lifted up <-Christ even mentions this one
e. The blood sacrifices pointing to Christ
f. Abraham offering Isaac
g. Jonah 3 days n 3 nights in the whale
etc...

Jesus said, " Search the scriptures for they are they that testify of ME" <--the N.T. was NOT WRITTEN WHEN HE SAIF THIS

The O.T. points to the cross the N.T. points back to the cross....Both were saved and justified by faith....

How is it that you and others miss this base, elementary truth?

Respectfully, I think he meant from the perspective of those in the OT....Am I wrong?

 

[Rightlydivided]

I think you should go back and study the bible....and then read my post to Granpa in response to this post you are citing!

I would have had the same response, it had absolutely nothing to do with you....I was just venting lol

 

[Rightlydivided]

It was revealed to him on the road to damascus.. Long after it was revealed to the disciples when they saw him after his ressurection.

I agree, maybe someone can answer why?