Open Theism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,324
2,413
113
#81
Continued...

So not only does God know what everyone WILL DO in the future,
but he has far more knowledge than even this.

Conclusion:
It is understandable to wonder at God's infinite attributes... attributes which are so alien to us, and so impossible for us to comprehend.
But it is not tenable to question the scope of those attributes after examining them thoroughly in scripture.

..
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,610
3,528
113
#82
God knows all true propositions: past, present, and future.

The Bible says God knows everything.

The Bible says God knows the future.

The Bible says God knows the heart of man, and what we're thinking.

The Bible says he knows every man's heart and mind, and he sees everything we do at all times.

Biblically, God does indeed know everything that everyone will do.
Historically, this is what all orthodox theologians have always arrived at from study of scripture.


God actually knows even MORE than all true propositions: past, present, and future.

Actually, God knows MUCH MORE THAN THIS.
There are other types of knowledge beside just knowledge of true propositions.

If we examine the Bible closely, we find God has far MORE knowledge than just knowledge of all true propositions past, present, and future.

God also has all appropriate indexical knowledge, all appropriate self knowledge, and knowledge of counterfactual propositions.

..
Not one Scripture quoted. We can discuss if you post Scripture.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#83
Doctrines like Open Theism? It's the result and symptoms of years of churches not preaching sound doctrine.

People need to pick up a book like "The Existence and Attributes of God" by Stephen Charnock and learn a few things. There are many more solid works. Read and learn. These biblical thinkers put all of us to shame with their knowledge, wisdom and devotion to God. Read it and learn something and stop taking verses out of context while pitting them against other texts.
He’s a god of Play Doh. What they do not like about Him, they either lop that off or mold Him into another shape, that way He is a God worthy of their praise and worship.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
#84
He’s a god of Play Doh. What they do not like about Him, they either lop that off or mold Him into another shape, that way He is a God worthy of their praise and worship.
They have their god in a Research & Development department of learning, trial and error. I feel from reading posts some here believe they could "learn" him a thing or two. ;)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,645
13,120
113
#85
Not one Scripture quoted. We can discuss if you post Scripture.

1 John 3:20, God knows all things.
John 16:30, Christ knows all things.

would you like to discuss the definition of "
all" ?


:)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,610
3,528
113
#86
1 John 3:20, God knows all things.
John 16:30, Christ knows all things.


would you like to discuss the definition of "all" ?

:)
I too believe God knows all things, but all future decisions are not even knowledge until they occur. Once they occur, then they become knowledge to be known.
 

Laish

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2016
1,666
448
83
57
#87
In addition to the codes God set the moon in orbit to condemn countries. Whenever an eclipse has crossed a country from east to west that country has fallen from power to become a third world type of country.

The US has had an eclipse cross the US from east to west and in 2024 another eclipse will cross from northeast to southwest crossing 7 cities named Salem. Thus making an X on the US. In colonial and later country years this was a Christian country. Today only a splinter of people are Christians. This country turned its back on God and Jesus. Now the US is condemned.
Looks like everyone is condemned.
4C748916-AE58-490A-B919-FC171B880D1A.gif
Including the oceans . I knew Fliper was up to no good .
Blessings
Bill
 

Laish

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2016
1,666
448
83
57
#88
I too believe God knows all things, but all future decisions are not even knowledge until they occur. Once they occur, then they become knowledge to be known.
I knew you were going to say that.
Blessings
Bill
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,324
2,413
113
#89
Not one Scripture quoted. We can discuss if you post Scripture.
Omniscience

1. Scope of Topic:
The attribute of omniscience, knowing all things, is an extremely broad topic covering many categories of knowledge, and because of this it's a huge task to make a comprehensive study of it. On virtually even page of scripture God is teaching on the breadth of his knowledge, either explicitly or implicitly.

2. Brevity:
For brevity I'll just share a few quick thoughts, followed by some lectures and sermons on the topic by well-known theologians.
Anyone here can go over the sermons and lectures at their leisure.

3. History:
Historically, the understanding of God's omniscience is ancient, broad, and well attested.
This view of God's knowledge was known in ancient Israel, and has been passed forward all the way into the modern era.

Judaism:
In modern Orthodox Judaism, and stretching back into antiquity, the Jews have always believed God is omniscient. They affirm he has perfect knowledge of all things, that he knows all things future, and that he cannot learn anything new because all things are already known by him.
Christianity:
Omniscience has always been understood and affirmed by the Christian church, and we have records of this going back to the early church fathers and the early church councils. All groups within orthodoxy have always affirmed God's complete omniscience and foreknowledge.
Calvinism & Arminianism:
Both Calvinism and Arminianism are completely unified in holding to this view. Both theological camps have always affirmed God's omniscience and foreknowledge; they have never disagreed on this. They have only disagreed on the ramifications of this foreknowledge, and whether or not it is antithetical to man's free will; but they have never disagreed on the existence of God's perfect foreknowledge.

There may be small heterodox camps within Christendom which disagree, but the orthodox view has ALWAYS been that God has perfect omniscience and foreknowledge.

4. Video Sermons and Lectures:
The following videos are all by orthodox and well-known pastors and teachers.

The first video, by William Lane Craig, is a bit long, but you only need to watch it from 11:00-29:00... a total of 18 minutes.
I recommend starting with him, and watching those middle 18 minutes.
He may seem a bit boring, but he has doctorates in both Theology and Philosophy, and he primarily works in academic apologetics... he's not the most exciting guy but his material is very organized.

Heads up: after 29:00, Dr. Craig gets off into some arcane philosphical issues that most people would probably prefer to skip... so it's a good place to end.



William Lane Craig - watch 11:00-29:00



Sinclair Ferguson



Steve Lawson



A.W. Tozer

 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
#90
In addition to the codes God set the moon in orbit to condemn countries. Whenever an eclipse has crossed a country from east to west that country has fallen from power to become a third world type of country.

The US has had an eclipse cross the US from east to west and in 2024 another eclipse will cross from northeast to southwest crossing 7 cities named Salem. Thus making an X on the US. In colonial and later country years this was a Christian country. Today only a splinter of people are Christians. This country turned its back on God and Jesus. Now the US is condemned.
Stick with Scripture and sound doctrine, not myths and fables. 2 Timothy 4:1-4.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
#91
I too believe God knows all things, but all future decisions are not even knowledge until they occur. Once they occur, then they become knowledge to be known.
That's one of the most foolish anti-God statements I've ever read. Your mitigation and attempted domestication of God knows no bounds.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,324
2,413
113
#92
Sorry guys, mistake in my above video list.

This is the correct video by Dr. Craig.


Watch 11:00-29:00


 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,610
3,528
113
#93
That's one of the most foolish anti-God statements I've ever read. Your mitigation and attempted domestication of God knows no bounds.
Sorry guys, mistake in my above video list.

This is the correct video by Dr. Craig.


Watch 11:00-29:00

My initial thoughts. Sorry, but this guy is pretty brutal to listen to but I made it through. Same old misrepresentation of Scripture. He posts Scripture and then tells his opinion. His commentary on Psalm 139 is misleading, adding to what the verses actually say to fit his theory.

Of course, then he quotes God knows the end from the beginning and goes on to add his opinion of what that means. Does God the end from the beginning? Of course, He has also declared the end in Scripture in Revelation. We also now know the ending that God knew from the beginning. However, to assume this means all future decisions in between is adding to what the Scripture actually says.

Again, God is perfect in knowledge. If it's knowledge to be known, He knows it. All future decisions are not knowledge until faced with the choice. That bothers all the Calvinist brothers. No decision will catch God off guard or surprise God so don't combat with that silly notion. God knows all possible outcomes of all possible decisions and is working in and through all those decisions that His purpose will be completed.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,324
2,413
113
#94
My initial thoughts. Sorry, but this guy is pretty brutal to listen to but I made it through. Same old misrepresentation of Scripture. He posts Scripture and then tells his opinion. His commentary on Psalm 139 is misleading, adding to what the verses actually say to fit his theory.

Of course, then he quotes God knows the end from the beginning and goes on to add his opinion of what that means. Does God the end from the beginning? Of course, He has also declared the end in Scripture in Revelation. We also now know the ending that God knew from the beginning. However, to assume this means all future decisions in between is adding to what the Scripture actually says.

Again, God is perfect in knowledge. If it's knowledge to be known, He knows it. All future decisions are not knowledge until faced with the choice. That bothers all the Calvinist brothers. No decision will catch God off guard or surprise God so don't combat with that silly notion. God knows all possible outcomes of all possible decisions and is working in and through all those decisions that His purpose will be completed.
God cannot learn anything new.

If God cannot learn anything new, as stated in scripture, that means he already knows EVERYTHING THAT CAN OR WILL EVER HAPPEN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. That is clear proof he has all knowledge of absolutely everything.

The Bible is very clear on these things, and all of Christendom, except for a few heretics, have agreed on these things for 2 millennia.

...
...
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#95
That's one of the most foolish anti-God statements I've ever read. Your mitigation and attempted domestication of God knows no bounds.
And you have the nerve to act surprised!?!?!?!?!?

He keeps whipping that Play Doh out and molding it in an god that reserves his praise and worship.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#96
My initial thoughts. Sorry, but this guy is pretty brutal to listen to but I made it through. Same old misrepresentation of Scripture. He posts Scripture and then tells his opinion. His commentary on Psalm 139 is misleading, adding to what the verses actually say to fit his theory.

Of course, then he quotes God knows the end from the beginning and goes on to add his opinion of what that means. Does God the end from the beginning? Of course, He has also declared the end in Scripture in Revelation. We also now know the ending that God knew from the beginning. However, to assume this means all future decisions in between is adding to what the Scripture actually says.

Again, God is perfect in knowledge. If it's knowledge to be known, He knows it. All future decisions are not knowledge until faced with the choice. That bothers all the Calvinist brothers. No decision will catch God off guard or surprise God so don't combat with that silly notion. God knows all possible outcomes of all possible decisions and is working in and through all those decisions that His purpose will be completed.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,082
1,749
113
#97
2 verses.
Genesis 1:1 NIV
In the begining God created the heavens and earth.
Isaiah 46:10 NIV
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’

Here is information about the codes in the Torah.

The books I have are:
The Bible Code
263 pages
Bible Code II the Countdown
291 pages
Both by Michael Drosnin

Bible Prophecy Proved Through The Mysterious Bible Codes
192 pages
By Grant R. Jeffrey

In these books the awesome foreknowledge of God is proven. A Bible Code is found in the Old Testament by starting with an original language text starting with a letter and using an interval counting forwards or backwards finding a message. In the Torah 20th century mens names with birth and death dates were found. In 2 messianic scriptures the name of Jesus with "it is he" and the 11 names of his disciples with the name of the one replacing Judas listed. Only 11 because 2 had the same name. Many other codes were found.

God caused the authors of those books write them with those codes embedded. Thus proving they were authored by God.

The first codes were found by rabbis looking at the beginning of the 5 books of the Torah. 4 had one word while the fifth had a different word. This caused the Israeli Institute similar to MIT in the US to have some some programing students create a software program to search the books of the Old Testament for more codes book by book. They released the program for anyone who wanted it. Thus the above books about the codes were created.
In addition to the codes God set the moon in orbit to condemn countries. Whenever an eclipse has crossed a country from east to west that country has fallen from power to become a third world type of country.

The US has had an eclipse cross the US from east to west and in 2024 another eclipse will cross from northeast to southwest crossing 7 cities named Salem. Thus making an X on the US. In colonial and later country years this was a Christian country. Today only a splinter of people are Christians. This country turned its back on God and Jesus. Now the US is condemned.
Sounds like some kind of reading of omens. I looked up omens in the list of forbidden occultic practices of Deuteronomy. The word had to do with reading clouds. I heard reading liver filaments as a type of divination. How is this different?
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,176
113
#98
Ok whats the opposite, 'closed theism'? Or how about I dont knowism, but He knowsism.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,645
13,120
113
#99
I too believe God knows all things, but all future decisions are not even knowledge until they occur. Once they occur, then they become knowledge to be known.
explain how prophecy can exist ?